Progressive Rock Music Forum : Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal http://www.progarchives.com/forum/ This is an XML content feed of; Progressive Rock Music Forum : Prog Blogs : Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal Copyright (c) 2006-2009 Web Wiz Forums - All Rights Reserved. Fri, 24 May 2013 20:24:39 +0000 Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:46:12 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 9.69 360 www.progarchives.com/forum/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=31445 Progressive Rock Music Forum http://www.progarchives.com/forum/css_styles/mac-prog/PAlogo_v2.gif http://www.progarchives.com/forum/ Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2796475#2796475 Author: CCVP
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 19 2008 at 11:46

Originally posted by BaldFriede


Because of that, i think that Pink Floyd WAS and still IS the main influence of space rock because, even if the bands today get their influence from Hawkwind or Eloy, both of these bands were influenced 1st by Pink Floyd. TongueWink
Not really; Hawkwind were more influenced by Krautrock.


True, but kraut shared a lot of features with space rock. Eloy's 2ndand 3rd albums are pure kraut to me, for exemple. I think kraut was aspecie of space rock that emerged in Germany because of some reasonsand  its not the time to list those reasons here.

Besides, since hawkwind was so much influenced by kraut, you just threw the influence responsibility to kraut.

Maybe krautrock is Germany's way to make space rock . . . .


Edited by CCVP - March 20 2008 at 20:31]]> Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:46:12 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2796475#2796475 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted by CCVP Because... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2796265#2796265 Author: BaldFriede
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 19 2008 at 01:27

Originally posted by CCVP


Because of that, i think that Pink Floyd WAS and still IS the main influence of space rock because, even if the bands today get their influence from Hawkwind or Eloy, both of these bands were influenced 1st by Pink Floyd. TongueWink
[/QUOTE]
Not really; Hawkwind were more influenced by Krautrock.
]]> Wed, 19 Mar 2008 01:27:20 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2796265#2796265 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2796126#2796126 Author: CCVP
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 18 2008 at 21:35

Originally posted by BaldFriede


I agree with most of your assessments, except for Pink Floyd summing up Space Rock. Space Rock would not be what it is without bands like Gong and Hawkwind; they are essential Space Rock.


Well, there is true in what you say, but i consider these bands as merely important to the genre, since Pink Floyd basically invented the genre back in 68 with a "Saurcerful of Secrets" album. It is not a good debut for the genre, but what the hell, all the basics are there! It is also true that Hawkwind was also one of the pioneers and also Eloy was a very important band. i really know nothing about Gong, but what i know is that the band had a incredible flexibility in its sound, changing its "genre" some times that you cant pinpoint what kind of prog they made and maybe this is the biggest problem with this web site: creating sub-genres out of nothing and fitting bands in it omitting  some of the band's  main characteristic, like  happens in the  unbelievable "Italian symphonic prog" which puts in the same bag bands that have quite different sound. Confused If these strange genre creating had any criteria at all it should be a exclusive sub-genre for the Brazilian band "Os Mutantes", since they did NOT, and i repeat with more emphasis, THEY DID NOT IN ANY MOMENT OF THEIR EARLY CAREER made a single psychedelic rock album EVER. They were part of a exclusive Brazilian musical movement called "TROPICÁLIA", which consisted in making true Brazilian music mixing international influences (like rock in the Os Mutantes case) and Brazilian traditional music and some inventions made by the musicians, since there was a intense creative work here at that time (60's - 70's). Also made part of the Tropicália movement Caetano Veloso, Gilberto Gil, and some other important Brazilian musicians that i cant recall the name right now. ConfusedOuch

Anyhow, going back to the point here, since Pink Floyd made, chronologically, albums that would strongly characterizes space rock for ever (like their 1st masterpiece: atom heart mother) and, because of that were more important to the genre that the warrior on the edge of time and ocean, for example. Hell, meddle and dark side of the moon came 1st then hall of the mountain grill and they where far more important then hall.

Because of that, i think that Pink Floyd WAS and still IS the main influence of space rock because, even if the bands today get their influence from Hawkwind or Eloy, both of these bands were influenced 1st by Pink Floyd. TongueWink




Edited by CCVP - March 19 2008 at 11:50]]> Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:35:58 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2796126#2796126 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted by CCVP Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2796022#2796022 Author: BaldFriede
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 18 2008 at 19:34

Originally posted by CCVP

Originally posted by Xeroth

Well, I would have to say that Dream Theater is one of my favorite bands of all time, so I don't quite understand what everyone hates about them because all that stuff about emotionless--to technical--blah, blah, blah


Neither do I dude. To me, bands like Dream Theater, Opeth, Death, Pain of Salvation and Ayreon pretty much sums up the sub-genre, just like Magma itself sums Zehul, Yes and Genesis pretty much sums Synphonic prog, Pink Floyd pretty much sums up space rock, King Crimson, Gentle Giant and Peter Hammil sums up eclectic prog.

However, these bands have hermetic music. I clearly remember how difficult and painful it were to listen a full King Crimson, Dream Theater, Pain of Salvation, Yes, Genesis, etc album for the very 1st time. it took me some months to get used to the music, but, when i got used, i became addicted to it. Cool

You guys just have to give time to time, just like any progressive rock album would demand to be well listen.

I agree with most of your assessments, except for Pink Floyd summing up Space Rock. Space Rock would not be what it is without bands like Gong and Hawkwind; they are essential Space Rock.


Edited by BaldFriede - March 18 2008 at 19:37]]> Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:34:16 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2796022#2796022 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : though I didn't like 'Dowsing',... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2795996#2795996 Author: Atavachron
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 18 2008 at 19:00

though I didn't like 'Dowsing',  I'd agree KD are a good rec in this case]]> Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:00:17 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2795996#2795996 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Actually I was thinking that Kayo... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2795983#2795983 Author: laplace
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 18 2008 at 18:48

Actually I was thinking that Kayo Dot satisfies Friede's request. The drummer has more taste, the music is produced with far more space (so no overly chromatic instruments) and although Mr. Driver does do odd, contortionist things with his voice, I wouldn't call any of it growling. =)]]> Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:48:10 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2795983#2795983 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted by BaldFriedeThere... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2795981#2795981 Author: CCVP
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 18 2008 at 18:42

Originally posted by BaldFriede

There are three things I dislike about prog metal. The first is double bass drumming, which I consider to be a childish gimmick. The second is growling, for which the same applies. The third is the sound of the bass guitar on many prog metal albums; it sounds way too dry and, yes, metallic. Nothing against a heavy and distorted bass; I really love that. But this metallic sounding bass is horrible to my ears. Any recommendations for Prog Metal without these features?


dont know any prog metal band without ANY these features. And i think it will be very hard to find any band without all of them. Ermm


Edited by CCVP - March 18 2008 at 21:38]]> Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:42:33 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2795981#2795981 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : There are three things I dislike... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2795959#2795959 Author: BaldFriede
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 18 2008 at 18:14

There are three things I dislike about prog metal. The first is double bass drumming, which I consider to be a childish gimmick. The second is growling, for which the same applies. The third is the sound of the bass guitar on many prog metal albums; it sounds way too dry and, yes, metallic. Nothing against a heavy and distorted bass; I really love that. But this metallic sounding bass is horrible to my ears. Any recommendations for Prog Metal without these features?
]]> Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:14:29 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2795959#2795959 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted by XerothWell,... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2795932#2795932 Author: CCVP
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 18 2008 at 17:30

Originally posted by Xeroth

Well, I would have to say that Dream Theater is one of my favorite bands of all time, so I don't quite understand what everyone hates about them because all that stuff about emotionless--to technical--blah, blah, blah


Neither do I dude. To me, bands like Dream Theater, Opeth, Death, Pain of Salvation and Ayreon pretty much sums up the sub-genre, just like Magma itself sums Zehul, Yes and Genesis pretty much sums Synphonic prog, Pink Floyd pretty much sums up space rock, King Crimson, Gentle Giant and Peter Hammil sums up eclectic prog.

However, these bands have hermetic music. I clearly remember how difficult and painful it were to listen a full King Crimson, Dream Theater, Pain of Salvation, Yes, Genesis, etc album for the very 1st time. it took me some months to get used to the music, but, when i got used, i became addicted to it. Cool

You guys just have to give time to time, just like any progressive rock album would demand to be well listen.
]]> Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:30:01 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2795932#2795932 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Well, I would have to say that... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2782242#2782242 Author: Xeroth
Subject: 31445
Posted: February 28 2008 at 15:56

Well, I would have to say that Dream Theater is one of my favorite bands of all time, so I don't quite understand what everyone hates about them because all that stuff about emotionless--to technical--blah, blah, blah, but I would like to suggest one prog-metal band not many have probably heard of that has really blown my mind away more recently.  They're called Diablo Swing Orchestra!  Awesome band with their debut album Butcher's Ballroom.  It's metal, swing, opera, jazz, and well, what ever else they could put into their songs that sounded right at the moment.  They've got awesome songs like Pit Bull Revolutions and Balrog Boogie that are crazy.  Give 'em a listen it's incredible!  Also, a really cool band is OSI!  I don't care if you hate Dream Theater or Liquid Tension experiment, but this is where Portnoy finally slows down and with Kevin Moore and another guy who's name leaves me really kick out some experimental/techno/whatever sciencey spacey sound that's pretty dark, techincal (not in a fast, crazy way) but also relaxing and rather contemplative and intriguing.  Of all of Portnoy's millions and millions of side projects that's the one that I've come to like... consider it something like OSI the Uber band!  Excellent musicians composing music that doesn't lose you in the complexity and it has that ominous emotion that some complain that Progressive Metal doesn't convey.]]> Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:56:37 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2782242#2782242 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : I assume you've looked into... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2767276#2767276 Author: Atavachron
Subject: 31445
Posted: February 12 2008 at 00:21

I assume you've looked into Mammatus [http://www.myspace.com/mammatus] and the other 'stoner-metal' bands, like Mammoth]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2008 00:21:28 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2767276#2767276 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : VOIVOD, they are from Québec,... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2767252#2767252 Author: Mike Giles
Subject: 31445
Posted: February 11 2008 at 23:52

VOIVOD, they are from Québec, im from Québec = I like these guys!

]]> Mon, 11 Feb 2008 23:52:20 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2767252#2767252 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : maudlin of the Wellsrsly http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2766380#2766380 Author: heyitsthatguy
Subject: 31445
Posted: February 11 2008 at 00:19

maudlin of the Well

srsly
]]> Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:19:02 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2766380#2766380 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : I'll give them a try. To... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2764767#2764767 Author: A B Negative
Subject: 31445
Posted: February 09 2008 at 08:45

I'll give them a try. To be honest, there have been so many bands mentioned in this thread it 's a bit overwhelming!]]> Sat, 09 Feb 2008 08:45:53 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2764767#2764767 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted by A B NegativeOK.... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2764381#2764381 Author: avestin
Subject: 31445
Posted: February 08 2008 at 20:53

Originally posted by A B Negative

OK. I haven't heard much prog metal but I like Opeth, Voivod and Mastodon, and I don't like Pain of Salvation, Dream Theater or anything involving Mike Patton.
 
What would you recommend?
 
Have you tried the bands mentioned in this thread? Namely, Hammers of Misfotune, Deadsoul Tribe, Subterranean Masquerade etc.
 
 
]]> Fri, 08 Feb 2008 20:53:35 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2764381#2764381 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : OK. I haven't heard much... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2763922#2763922 Author: A B Negative
Subject: 31445
Posted: February 08 2008 at 11:21

OK. I haven't heard much prog metal but I like Opeth, Voivod and Mastodon, and I don't like Pain of Salvation, Dream Theater or anything involving Mike Patton.
 
What would you recommend?
]]> Fri, 08 Feb 2008 11:21:32 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2763922#2763922 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Well, I think a well deserved... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2763373#2763373 Author: Drakk
Subject: 31445
Posted: February 07 2008 at 18:08

Well, I think a well deserved bump is order.
 
If not to help any others with Prog Metal Problems, at least to recommend another intriguing and forward thinking Progressive Metal Band: Shaolin Death Squad.  Had I known about them in 2006, they would have made it very high into my favorite albums list, possibly in the top 5.  The music is a strange combination of Mr. Bungle/Estradasphere weirdness, Faith No More meets Pain of Salvation with a large twist of their own.  The vocalists sounds like Mike Patton meets Daniel Gildenlow at times.
 
Highly recommended.
]]> Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:08:02 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2763373#2763373 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted by activetopicsbah... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2636542#2636542 Author: 1800iareyay
Subject: 31445
Posted: September 16 2007 at 21:48

Originally posted by activetopics

bah prog-metal bands nowadays are all dream theater ripoffs...except the ones i havnet listned to

Which means you don't know what you're talking about. Not one of the bands mentioned in this thread is a DT ripoff. As a matter of fact, that's why this thread was created. Perhaps if you tried some of the bands listed here you might revise your broad, uninformed statement. Wink
]]> Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:48:55 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2636542#2636542 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : bah prog-metal bands nowadays... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2636535#2636535 Author: activetopics
Subject: 31445
Posted: September 16 2007 at 21:37

bah prog-metal bands nowadays are all dream theater ripoffs...except the ones i havnet listned to

]]> Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:37:28 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2636535#2636535 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : ^In this precise moment, listening... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2632062#2632062 Author: sircosick
Subject: 31445
Posted: September 11 2007 at 22:13

^ Smile

In this precise moment, listening to Sieges Even (A sense of change). Really paying an important attention to it. Not bad. I'll check out Orphaned Land. Thanks.
]]> Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:13:01 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2632062#2632062 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Hey man, glad to hear you're... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2620742#2620742 Author: Bryan
Subject: 31445
Posted: August 30 2007 at 23:29

Hey man, glad to hear you're starting to come around. Big%20smile

Those are definitely good bands to start with, when I started this thread I was trying to focus on bands most prog people might not have heard of but that's not to hold anything against the likes of Ayreon, Green Carnation, Opeth and Riverside (all bands I enjoy quite a bit).  Anathema is definitely a good next choice, also maybe check out Orphaned Land.
]]> Thu, 30 Aug 2007 23:29:54 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2620742#2620742 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : About five months have passed... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2617129#2617129 Author: sircosick
Subject: 31445
Posted: August 26 2007 at 22:08

About five months have passed since I got into this thread, causing some scandals related to likes and dislikes about PM. Well, I owe an apology because I was a new member joined at that time and I was a bit anxious to create discussions and fights and all that.......

Why am I posting here again? To resurface this dead thread, a very good one (and I'm not being hypocrite; despite my rude commentaries in the past, I'm sure I said that anyway), because I'm getting into prog metal..... errr...... more deeply I'd say. More than before, surely. It's not an easy task, but I'm trying. Hardly.

Among those bands of the genre that I liked it, I can count Ayreon (I've only heard The Human Equation), Green Carnation (The Acoustic Verses for now), some stuff from Riverside, Opeth (Damnation, great album), still not into DT's Scenes from a Memory but interesting enough...... and, specially, the last recommendation by Bryan: Neurosis - The Eye of Every Storm. Good stuff.

As you can see, I'm trying to start. Going very careful though, but I'm being guided ok. Anathema seems to be my next parade.

You metal progheads, tell me if the bands aforementioned are in fact PM for people who don't like PM, aren't they?


Edited by sircosick - August 26 2007 at 22:09]]> Sun, 26 Aug 2007 22:08:28 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2617129#2617129 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : I'd definately recommend... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2518900#2518900 Author: Drakk
Subject: 31445
Posted: May 23 2007 at 22:45

I'd definately recommend SubMasq as an amazing band for metal fans.
 
Dog Fashion Disco, is another interesting pick, somewhat in the vein of Mr. Bungle, but more metal oriented.  Silly and overraught, but in a good way.  They haven't been added, but I made a thread in the suggestions forum.
 
Maybe *cough*some one could go look at it...*cough*
]]> Wed, 23 May 2007 22:45:05 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2518900#2518900 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : ^^^^ I agree with this recommendation.... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2498211#2498211 Author: chamberry
Subject: 31445
Posted: May 05 2007 at 21:09

^^^^  I agree with this recommendation. Wonderful band. Wonderful music.]]> Sat, 05 May 2007 21:09:35 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2498211#2498211 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Lately I've been fascinated... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2498205#2498205 Author: avestin
Subject: 31445
Posted: May 05 2007 at 21:03

Lately I've been fascinated with Grayceon, which are a guitar/cello/drums/vocals (female and male) trio. The sound is sort of raw and it has this free spirit, but every note is in place. The cello gives the muic a great atmosphere, and beyond the metal (which is not the main focus here, as I see it) you get some great progressive rock here (granted, a heavier kind of rock).
 
Here are some links:
http://www.myspace.com/grayceon (2 songs to listen to)
http://www.grayceon.com/ official website with samples
http://www.vendlus.com/artists/grayceon/ theeir page at their label's website
http://nocturnalcult.com/ interview and review
 
Another one to look to (although heavier, and with what some might see as unpleasant vocals) is Giant Squid:
http://www.myspace.com/giantsquid
http://www.giantsquidmusic.com/
 
 
]]> Sat, 05 May 2007 21:03:58 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2498205#2498205 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Opeth, Ayreon,POS are my favourite... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2493187#2493187 Author: hellfan
Subject: 31445
Posted: May 02 2007 at 03:18

Opeth, Ayreon,POS are my favourite prog metal bands.I like Tyr, too.And Borknagar Tongue]]> Wed, 02 May 2007 03:18:31 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2493187#2493187 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Very good thread,Bryan - I dislike... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2471968#2471968 Author: Prog-jester
Subject: 31445
Posted: April 16 2007 at 09:26

Very good thread,Bryan - I dislike traditional Heavy/Power-based Prog-Metal, but bands like TOOL, PELICAN, INDUKTI, OPETH, MY DYING BRIDE are among my favouritest ones! Keep it going!]]> Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:26:45 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2471968#2471968 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Looking forward to that addition,... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2445226#2445226 Author: Trickster F.
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 28 2007 at 10:04

Looking forward to that addition, Bryan!]]> Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:04:50 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2445226#2445226 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : ^^ I really like Tyr, but I have... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2444924#2444924 Author: MikeEnRegalia
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 28 2007 at 02:13

^^ I really like Tyr, but I have to say that Ragnarok is not as prog as the previous album ... it's only prog-related IMO, so if anybody want's to check them out and expects to find prog - get Eric the Red instead of Ragnarok.Smile]]> Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:13:57 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2444924#2444924 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : just picked up Indukti's... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2444916#2444916 Author: Atavachron
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 28 2007 at 01:34

just picked up Indukti's SUSAR.. completely satisfied, it's terrific!

]]> Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:34:27 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2444916#2444916 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted by mickyhahhahah..... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2444910#2444910 Author: Bryan
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 28 2007 at 01:31

Originally posted by micky

hahhahah.. sort of funny Peter speaking of the thread topic..  in revenge for subjecting Raff to one of Battiato's out of this world electronic adventures she put on a PM album she bought last night.  Actually it isn't bad at all.  I guess the flip side of the cookie monster vocals.. the female fronted groups.. wasn't bad at all. Would never pull the album out on my own. But listenable..  I think I'm actually hearing some cello as I type this..

The Gathering - Mandylion


The Gathering are definitely a band I could see people not so friendly towards prog-metal gain some appreciation for... I'm not a big fan of theirs personally, but they're certainly on the less abraisive end of the metal spectrum.

Anyway, for anybody actually interested in hearing some new music as a result of this thread:

Band: Tyr
Album: Ragnarok
PA Link coming soon...
Samples: http://www.tyr.net/cddisco.asp?Cmd=2
Viking themed metal from the Faroe Islands??  As bizarre as the idea behind this band seems, they're undeniably one of the prog-metal world's rising stars.  Taking a base of traditional heavy metal and interjecting it with some healthy doses of prog rock's best bits (epic conceptual themes, interesting song developments, creative approaches to songwriting) while avoiding the worse ones (there are no overly lengthy songs or pointless instrumental w**kfests to be found, though the band's instrumental sections are nothing short of impressive) and throwing on a steady dose of Farosian (?) folk music to create a truly unique final result.  In fact, arguably the finest moments on the entire album come when the band turns in soaring, inpsiring metal adaptations of their homeland's traditional folk songs, which we're treated to a few of.  The original compositions are magnificent and feature a stronger focus on songwriting than most prog-metal groups, with most of the inherent technicality appearing more on a subtle level.  Not overly heavy, fantastic yet suitably controlled lead vocals (don't expect any of James LaBrie's dramatic off-key theatrics) and enough songwriting depth to keep you noticing new things each listen, these guys are seriously worth investing some time in for pretty much any fan of prog.
]]> Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:31:29 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2444910#2444910 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted by The... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2440767#2440767 Author: FruMp
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 25 2007 at 03:44

Originally posted by The T

Originally posted by FruMp

I HATE emotion deprived cheese bands like DT who have modern metal production, that is my most hated type of prog alongside prog/power.

I'm sure there are a lot of guys here like me who like metal and prog but hate cheese, if  you're one of those guys I recommend you get some:
 
Let's see.....

Atheist - kickass technical prog metal most importantly with sweet riffs, amazing rythmn section, funky ass drum beats and bass lines. Unquestionable presence is more technical and more metallic, elements is a bit slower and more prog - both highly, highly recommended. But you said you hate emotion-deprived bands... yet you don't count emotion as one of your reccomended band's attributes...Confused
Death - a similar band, highly repsected early death metal band some great stuff but they're a bit heavier, their later stuff (symbolic onwards) is more prog and technical mmmm, the same thing again.
Coroner - absolutely freaking amazing 80's technical thrash power trio if you're into sweet technical riffs, breakneck speed extremely tasteful (and fast) solos then get some  they aren't on the archives though, I'd recommend punishment for decadence for the metal fan and grin for the prog fan.No emotion at all... Pure technique, according to you. So I understand that what you really hate is emotion, don't you?
Mekong Delta - Amazing band plays thrash infused with classical music (not cheese neo-classical sh*te either, PROPER classical stuff), I recommend visions fugitivesWhat is that "neo-classic" sh*t? What is PROPER classical? True PROPER classical would be music straight from the wombs of Mozart or Haydn or Carl Phillip Emannuel Bach... that's the only TRUE classical music, becuase the expression "classical music", if we are to use it properly, refers only to that period of time after the baroque and before romanticism... but we all agree to call all academic music "classical", so I guess either all of these bands play PROPER classical music or they don't
Spastik Ink - Highly amusing instrumental (mostly) very technical prog metal band, interesting stuff, either of their albums are worth a listen.
Mr Bungle - not terribly metal (even though they were THE band that got me into metal) but a bloody excellent and funny band.
Sleep Terror - Awesome Techincal Metal duo, really good stuff has lots of jazz breaks and technical ass riffs in it.
Right.. All of these great bands... but yopu hate emotion deprived metal...Confused

I mean even some earlier thrash stuff is quite progressive if you listen hard
I agree.

Metallica - master of puppets, I'm not the biggest fan of metallica but master of puppets the song is undeniably progressive in nature and it's arguably their best and most adventurous album.Agreeance it's the word.
Megadeth - when you analyse the song structures they are often quite progessive in nature, Rust in piece is highly recommended,  mustaine writes kickass riffs holy wars I believe is quite a progessive song with some kinda technical riffs, kickass song.Don't agree that much... Even Rust in Peace is pure giitar fireworks..good album but it's just thrash...
Lawnmower deth - obscure band that I've got into recently, really funny RIO type thrash but it's more straightforward - only recommended for metal fans.

God I could be here all day digging and probing and finding prog elements in all the bands I like, I'll just stop now.


Basically I'm equally a fan of prog and thrash these days, I can't speak highly enough of the thrash metal genre there is so much quality music to be had and it's just got this real raw and genuine feel to it most of the time and there are some really good funny bands and real good innovators it's all mostly from the 80's though. So yeah that's the kinda guy these opinions are coming from.I understand. But you'd agree you are not a "emotional" band kind of fan, from what you say and from the list you are giving.... so, how come you know DT is a emotion-deprived band?...ConfusedConfused
 
Anyway, I respect your position. But, to use an expression I just love (please, I HAVE the right to use it at least once in my lifetime):.........
 
You just don't get it.
 
Big%20smileWink 



Well I have to disagree with you that I don't get it I mean if I didn't like emotionally stimulating music why would close to the edge be my favourite song of all time?, why would I love dark side of the moon?, why am I going through an italian prog phase?

Well I emplore you to listen to those bands before judging them, the thing about metal is you really need to 'get' it in and be open to it in order to be able to dervie emotional benefit from it, and being a thrash fan of course I'm going to want blazing fast kickass riffs and bitchin' solos but I don't get into bands who are JUST that, the bands that appeal to me are the bands that have good well written music foremost then all the rest of it later - if you want I can upload some of the music I mentioned so you can see for yourself, or you could go listen to it on their page on the archives, I recommend mother man by atheist.

and the reason I and probably many others think DT are emotion deprived is because the vocals and lyrics are in my opinion cheesy the guitar is a lot of the time over the top and unnecesary shred and it doesn't seem genuine when petrucci slows down and plays something 'emotional' it seems like it's just theory recital and not from the heart (oh god I sound like a douche saying that XD), it seems too clean to me as well, I mean you think about some of the most emotional and best prog works and they aren't clean and clear cut, they have a lot of nuances and an organic feel (probably attributed to analog production) take close to the edge for example.

It's just an opinion that DT are cheesy, emotion depreived and superficial just as it's just an opinion that the metal bands I like aren't just mindless technical shred, in the end the opinion that DT are all of the above is one that I and many others hold for much of the same reasons, and it's not really exclusively hate for DT it's more a dislike of modern prog metal and power metal, and it's hard to deny that a lot of it is cheesy as hell.


Edited by FruMp - March 25 2007 at 12:26]]> Sun, 25 Mar 2007 03:44:38 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2440767#2440767 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Really I care, Bryan. Don't... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2440201#2440201 Author: sircosick
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 24 2007 at 16:50

Really I care, Bryan. Don't worry, I don't HATE any kind of music. Music is for everything!

Thanks, anyway.
]]> Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:50:59 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2440201#2440201 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : hahhahah.. sort of funny Peter... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439330#2439330 Author: micky
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 24 2007 at 04:28

hahhahah.. sort of funny Peter speaking of the thread topic..  in revenge for subjecting Raff to one of Battiato's out of this world electronic adventures she put on a PM album she bought last night.  Actually it isn't bad at all.  I guess the flip side of the cookie monster vocals.. the female fronted groups.. wasn't bad at all. Would never pull the album out on my own. But listenable..  I think I'm actually hearing some cello as I type this..

The Gathering - Mandylion
]]> Sat, 24 Mar 2007 04:28:57 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439330#2439330 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : ah, nice to hear from you Bryan.... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439288#2439288 Author: Atavachron
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 24 2007 at 02:17

ah, nice to hear from you Bryan. I'm an old 'head from way back and got into music through NWOBHM, so I'm all for this thread. Much of the metal we loved as kids was complex and progressive before progmetal was a term, like Maiden, Angelwitch and Voivod.. and in S.F. we had Metallica and other great acts.
]]> Sat, 24 Mar 2007 02:17:58 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439288#2439288 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted by micky ... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439287#2439287 Author: Peter
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 24 2007 at 02:17

Originally posted by micky

 

LOL you go Peter!


Er, yes -- to bed!Sleepy

Is it past 2:00 AM there too?

Furschluginner Archives!Angry You did it to me again! Ouch
]]> Sat, 24 Mar 2007 02:17:14 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439287#2439287 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted by Peter... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439279#2439279 Author: micky
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 24 2007 at 01:57

Originally posted by Peter Rideout

Well, re your comparison to Italian prog vocals, then, Michelangelo, I'd have to disagree.

I find PFM vocals to be rather nice, Banco vox to be dynamic, and even the intense Latin vox of Deus Ex Machina to be musical, but I find growled vox to be very irritating, and just plain (unintentionally) funny. I think these bands seriously limit the possible extent of their audience when they employ them. (My wife -- kids too -- and friends would think I was NUTS if I played that stuff for them, and said I liked the singing. I honestly can't imagine anyone I know personally enjoying -- or even tolerating -- that.)

Again, I'm not saying you'd have to be nuts to like it ("different strokes," & all), but I'd need to be someone else to get into it. I have enough trouble with screamers like Axel Rose & the guy from ACDC (make me unable to enjoy the otherwise pretty good, ass-kickin' tunes), but growling, to me, takes it to a whole new level of pain -- the lowest level of hell, perhaps. If there are angel choirs in heaven, and demonic choruses in hell, the latter must sound just like the above vocals.
Not at all pleasant, shall we say....Ermm

Ermm I hope I don't get in trouble in certain quarters for this post -- I'm just being honest.

Again, there was some good, even pretty/uplifting music on there, though -- well-deserving of the "prog" label.Smile




LOL you go Peter!
]]> Sat, 24 Mar 2007 01:57:54 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439279#2439279 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Thanks to Peter for making an... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439278#2439278 Author: Bryan
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 24 2007 at 01:57

Thanks to Peter for making an honest effort to check out some of the stuff I mentioned... Subterranean Masquerade do have growled vocals on certain songs, although several of their tracks are growl-free as well, which made me a little less reluctant to list them.  But anyway, knowing that there are actually some people using this thread to help them find new bands is refreshing to see in the wake of the obligatory blind genre bashing that I'd hoped the thread could avoid falling into.

If sircosick or whatever his name is really cares to hear some undeniably emotional prog-metal, I strongly advise that he check out the Neurosis album I recommended on page 2, though I somehow doubt he's actually interested at all in recieving genuine advice out of this thread.
]]> Sat, 24 Mar 2007 01:57:48 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439278#2439278 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Well, re your comparison to... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439275#2439275 Author: Peter
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 24 2007 at 01:47

Well, re your comparison to Italian prog vocals, then, Michelangelo, I'd have to disagree.

I find PFM vocals to be rather nice, Banco vox to be dynamic, and even the intense Latin vox of Deus Ex Machina to be musical, but I find growled vox to be very irritating, and just plain (unintentionally) funny. I think these bands seriously limit the possible extent of their audience when they employ them. (My wife -- kids too -- and friends would think I was NUTS if I played that stuff for them, and said I liked the singing. I honestly can't imagine anyone I know personally enjoying -- or even tolerating -- that.)

Again, I'm not saying you'd have to be nuts to like it ("different strokes," & all), but I'd need to be someone else to get into it. I have enough trouble with screamers like Axel Rose & the guy from ACDC (make me unable to enjoy the otherwise pretty good, ass-kickin' tunes), but growling, to me, takes it to a whole new level of pain -- the lowest level of hell, perhaps. If there are angel choirs in heaven, and demonic choruses in hell, the latter must sound just like the above vocals.
Not at all pleasant, shall we say....Ermm

Ermm I hope I don't get in trouble in certain quarters for this post -- I'm just being honest.

Again, there was some good, even pretty/uplifting music on there, though -- well-deserving of the "prog" label.Smile




Edited by Peter Rideout - March 24 2007 at 01:48]]> Sat, 24 Mar 2007 01:47:07 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439275#2439275 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted by Atavachron^ Yeah,... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439273#2439273 Author: micky
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 24 2007 at 01:46

Originally posted by Atavachron

^
Yeah, it took me a while to not mind and start to enjoy someone like Francesco Di Giacomo. I must admit it's the singing/lyrics in many forms of prog, including Progmetal, that can sometimes diminish the music for me, i.e. Rivertree (who I like a lot), Cynic (who I don't). Consequently the heavy stuff I like has little or no vocals..


same here... of the RPI biggies.. Banco took me to longest to get into. ( even more than Le Orme LOL) for that reason.  I remember a similar thread Mike did a year or so ago.. where again he tried to get.. hahha.. Peter and I into PM.  It just isn't our thing I guess... but all ribbing aside... I think I can speak for him as well. We did listen with open minds.
]]> Sat, 24 Mar 2007 01:46:35 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439273#2439273 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : ^ Yeah, it took me a while to... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439264#2439264 Author: Atavachron
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 24 2007 at 01:39

^
Yeah, it took me a while to not mind and start to enjoy someone like Francesco Di Giacomo. I must admit it's the singing/lyrics in many forms of prog, including Progmetal, that can sometimes diminish the music for me, i.e. Riverside (who I like a lot), Cynic (who I don't). Consequently the heavy stuff I like has little or no vocals..







Edited by Atavachron - March 24 2007 at 01:52]]> Sat, 24 Mar 2007 01:39:50 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439264#2439264 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted by Peter... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439242#2439242 Author: micky
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 24 2007 at 01:17

Originally posted by Peter Rideout

^ Eh Micky? RPI? Wha?Confused


hahhahah.... I love my abbreviations...

Rock progressivo italiano.  the old ISP. errr...   italian symphonic prog. 
]]> Sat, 24 Mar 2007 01:17:23 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439242#2439242 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : ^ Eh Micky? RPI? Wha? http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439239#2439239 Author: Peter
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 24 2007 at 01:13

^ Eh Micky? RPI? Wha?Confused]]> Sat, 24 Mar 2007 01:13:32 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439239#2439239 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted by Peter... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439233#2439233 Author: micky
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 24 2007 at 01:06

Originally posted by Peter Rideout

Well Bryan, I downloaded SIX STRINGS TO COVER FEAR

by the first band you listed, and I was honestly really digging
the majestic, melodic, mellotronny sound -- until the darned growling vocals came in!Pinch

Sorry, I still find such unnatural "singing" to be very silly -- it just plain ruined it, for me. Had to turn it off -- i can't see myself ever getting into such vocals.Confused

I'll try more of your list, though I think "warning -- contains growling" might be a good label to stick on such CDs!Ermm

I think any prog fan not put off by growling should give it a go, though.Smile


I'll take a download...  I have nothing against PM in general.. just haven't found anything that has 'grabbed' me. And it's fun to poke fun at. As far as growling goes.. LOL....   no different than the overwrought vocal styles of RPI.  Just taste I guess Big%20smile
]]> Sat, 24 Mar 2007 01:06:58 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439233#2439233 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Well Bryan, I downloaded SIX... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439229#2439229 Author: Peter
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 24 2007 at 00:57

Well Bryan, I downloaded SIX STRINGS TO COVER FEAR

by the first band you listed, and I was honestly really digging
the majestic, melodic, mellotronny sound -- until the darned growling vocals came in!Pinch

Sorry, I still find such unnatural "singing" to be very silly -- it just plain ruined it, for me. Had to turn it off -- i can't see myself ever getting into such vocals.Confused

I'll try more of your list, though I think "warning -- contains growling" might be a good label to stick on such CDs!Ermm

I think any prog fan not put off by growling should give it a go, though.Smile

Edit: I just spot-checked the rest of the track, and while the music gets a fair bit heavier/faster (that double kick bass thing), there are also some sections of real beauty and delicacy.Thumbs%20Up

But those vox -- aieeeeee! Torture! Pinch

If you read this, can you point me (and other like souls) to some of the stuff that's growling-free?

I know the words don't really matter to some folks here, but lyrics are quite important to me, too -- if too dark, I won't like the track.


Edited by Peter Rideout - March 24 2007 at 01:11]]> Sat, 24 Mar 2007 00:57:11 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2439229#2439229 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : I appreciate Bryan's efforts... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2438573#2438573 Author: Peter
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 23 2007 at 16:29

I appreciate Bryan's efforts to broaden non-PM fans' exposure to, and notions of, prog metal.
 
Some of the stuff he sent me in the past may not have converted me to a "headbanger," but at least I reached a level of understanding where I could say "I still don't care for it, but parts of it were pretty good (for me, usually the often slower opening passages, before the vocals come in), and I can see why it's called "progressive" metal, why it's here, and why people might like it.
 
I will also check out some of the stuff you've posted here, with an open mind. If I like it, I'll let you know -- in this thread. If I don't like it -- well, then it's just not to my taste.
We all have some sort of "borders" as to what we like (in art, and other things) but who knows? Some of the stuff you've listed may fall within my borders (or close enough to them that stretching those borders to encorporate the music would not entail my having to become someone else).Ermm
 
SmileHope that made sense! Again, Bryan, I appreciate your bridge-building efforts for the greater good of our oft-divided community.Clap
 
Maybe I won't make it across the bridge, but I'll give it an honest effort. If "scary" sounds make me retreat back to my safe and familiar side, in the end, I promise not to stand there and hurl insults and gibes at the dark-clad folks on the other shore. Wink
 
(Been there -- done that. Wasn't good for me, or anyone else!)LOL


Edited by Peter Rideout - March 23 2007 at 16:31]]> Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:29:09 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2438573#2438573 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Thanks guys. I'll write those... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2438551#2438551 Author: chamberry
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 23 2007 at 16:17

Thanks guys. I'll write those albums down and start hunting.]]> Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:17:38 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2438551#2438551 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted by chamberryAhhh...... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2438542#2438542 Author: Trickster F.
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 23 2007 at 16:10

Originally posted by chamberry

Ahhh... Don't you just love oversimplified generalizations?...



Back on topic. Should I get Alternative 4 as a starting point for Anathema?

 
Knowing your tastes, I think you'd appreciate A Natural Disaster more.
]]> Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:10:40 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2438542#2438542 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : Originally posted by chamberryAhhh...... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2438537#2438537 Author: Melomaniac
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 23 2007 at 16:05

Originally posted by chamberry

Ahhh... Don't you just love oversimplified generalizations?...



Back on topic. Should I get Alternative 4 as a starting point for Anathema?

 
Eternity is where they changed their sound, so I'd suggest this one, even though it's not their best.
]]> Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:05:41 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2438537#2438537 Prog-metal for people who don't like prog-metal : ^^ That or Judgement, they're... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2438534#2438534 Author: darkmatter
Subject: 31445
Posted: March 23 2007 at 16:02

^^ That or Judgement, they're both very good.  Judgement is the lighter album of the two.]]> Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:02:11 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445&PID=2438534#2438534