Progressive Rock Music Forum : Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? http://www.progarchives.com/forum/ This is an XML content feed of; Progressive Rock Music Forum : Prog Music Lounge : Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? Copyright (c) 2006-2009 Web Wiz Forums - All Rights Reserved. Sat, 25 May 2013 04:56:10 +0000 Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:27:16 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 9.69 360 www.progarchives.com/forum/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=31850 Progressive Rock Music Forum http://www.progarchives.com/forum/css_styles/mac-prog/PAlogo_v2.gif http://www.progarchives.com/forum/ Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : Originally posted by MacellariusVander... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2290132#2290132 Author: Jay440
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 07 2006 at 12:27

Originally posted by Macellarius

Vander is a fantastically multi-talented man. His drumming is great - but if he had a bigger kit it could have been even better.


A bigger kit?

Check out what he had circa 1977 and what he did with it:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O3lYRqcjP6I
]]> Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:27:16 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2290132#2290132 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : Vander is a fantastically multi-talented... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2289708#2289708 Author: Macellarius
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 07 2006 at 01:38

Vander is a fantastically multi-talented man. His drumming is great - but if he had a bigger kit it could have been even better.]]> Thu, 07 Dec 2006 01:38:42 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2289708#2289708 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : Originally posted by BluesagaI'm... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2289668#2289668 Author: danelidou
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 07 2006 at 00:21

Originally posted by Bluesaga

I'm only familiar with his work on Udu Wudu, but I can already tell that Vander is a superb drummer.  Listening to De Futura makes that very apparent (wow!).  More Magma is a high priority for me, preferably on LP.
I agree with that.
 
His drumming on De Futura was really impressing me, I mean, this is some superb drumming. But now I'm more into M.D.K. and enjoy even more his drumming here. It's more subtle, but incredibly effective. He seems to have so much energy !!
]]> Thu, 07 Dec 2006 00:21:11 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2289668#2289668 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : I'm only familiar with his... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2288427#2288427 Author: Mikerinos
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 05 2006 at 21:49

I'm only familiar with his work on Udu Wudu, but I can already tell that Vander is a superb drummer.  Listening to De Futura makes that very apparent (wow!).  More Magma is a high priority for me, preferably on LP.
]]> Tue, 05 Dec 2006 21:49:17 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2288427#2288427 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : I believe that he is very technically... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2288405#2288405 Author: Erock
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 05 2006 at 21:30

I believe that he is very technically skilled, but I could care less about it. I'm no drummer and surely no expert on technique, but what he does just sounds amazing and is unique and alot more fun then the drummers like Peart. Who's more technically skilled? Peart probably, but he's not as interesting and that's what really matters.]]> Tue, 05 Dec 2006 21:30:23 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2288405#2288405 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : Originally posted by Syzygy...The... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2288279#2288279 Author: Jay440
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 05 2006 at 19:19

Originally posted by Syzygy

...The juxtaposition of even and odd metres can have a trance inducing effect, as I discovered once when listening to Retrospektiw I & II while driving down the motorway....I think at least part of this comes from African polyrhythms, which are used a lot in shamanic rituals. Powerful stuff, and best experienced live.


Exactly!

Combine that with the Glossolalia-like vocals, and the whole Spiritual/Mythological aspects of this stuff, and it's easy to understand why Magma concerts are regarded as Religious Experiences.
]]> Tue, 05 Dec 2006 19:19:37 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2288279#2288279 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : Chris Cutler said that Magma was... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2288077#2288077 Author: Syzygy
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 05 2006 at 16:40

Chris Cutler said that Magma was the first band he ever heard play a 5:4 rhythm, i.e. 5 evenly paced beats in the space of 4, as opposed to 5/4 time. The juxtaposition of even and odd metres can have a trance inducing effect, as I discovered once when listening to Retrospektiw I & II while driving down the motorway. Charles Hayward sometimes does the same thing, which really warps your perception of time. I think at least part of this comes from African polyrhythms, which are used a lot in shamanic rituals. Powerful stuff, and best experienced live.]]> Tue, 05 Dec 2006 16:40:13 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2288077#2288077 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : Originally posted by Jay440 Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2287734#2287734 Author: sularetal
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 05 2006 at 11:28

Originally posted by Jay440

Originally posted by Bastille Dude

Originally posted by Logan

Not only do I prefer Vander's drumming to Peart's, I also prefer his lyrics.  LOL


     LOLLOLLOL


Clap

He's not just an amazing drummer technically, but it's his approach to rythm that leads us to his compositions.....The last 8 minutes of Kohntarkosz Part II (especially from the original studio version and some audience tapes) is some of the most innovative manipulation of Time and Tempo I've ever heard, hands down, as well as one of the most intense Prog Climaxes ever!

It starts after the Guitar solo with the 4-note melody that it plays in sync with the piano repeating those 3 chords: It takes about 4 measures for those two independent melodies to come back around to starting on the same note.

That's the basis for it. Then they start messing with the syncopation and feel of those two things passing through each other, speeding it up into a fast, almost Rockabilly/Jump Swing tempo(LOL).

To dig what they do with it from there, go get a copy of it IMMEDIATELY if you don't have one.

Vander really pioneered something with that piece. I have never heard anything else like it since.

Zeuhl Music is built on that foundation of taking odd and even-numbered beats and melodic phrases overlapping, getting a Jazzy kind of SWING going with it, and taking the possibilities of all of that to some outrageous extremes through repetition and the adjustment of the phrasing which gives that feel of the Tempo expanding and contracting.

Whew!Wacko

Yeah.

So, how 'bout those lyrics of his, huh?
 
Yep. It's very common to hear Vander or Magma play phrases that need 3,5,7 etc meters untli they start over again. this is done by putting a 7/8 phrase in 4/4 for example. Those polyrhythmic ideas can be heard not only by the drums. It's a really common thing on magma's vocals. Thats why magma create this chaotic, 'non-metronomic' feel.
]]> Tue, 05 Dec 2006 11:28:52 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2287734#2287734 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : Originally posted by SyzygyThe... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2287164#2287164 Author: Paul Stump
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 04 2006 at 19:33

Originally posted by Syzygy

The interesting thing about Vander's drumming (ok, one of many interesting things) is that he creates so much with a fairly standard 5/6 piece kit. The same can be said of Yoshida Tatsuya (Ruins etc) and Charles Hayward (This Heat, solo), while Chris Cutler's 'think fast, move slow' approach to drumming has to be seen to be believed. I've seen all of these guys performing in small venues and I think they could all be called master drummers.
 
Whether this makes them 'better' than Peart et al (but especially Peart) with their enormous Carl Palmer memorial kits is open to debate. They have radically different approaches and work in very different genres, so an objective comparison is difficult to make. Those RIO/Avant prog drummers I've spoken to over the years all seem to have a certain admiration for straight ahead rock drummers, particularly in hard rock/heavy metal, and Keith Moon seems to be a common favourite. Next time I'll ask specifically about Peart...
 
Couldn't agree more. To anyone who's ever met him or seen him play, Vander is a force of nature, a tiny, lithe, muscular little ball of hairy energy. He's the only 'busy' drummer I've ever heard that doesn't make things sound cluttered. Chris Cutler has immense regard for him. I've not spoken to Bill about him but will try.
]]> Mon, 04 Dec 2006 19:33:54 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2287164#2287164 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : Originally posted by Bastille... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2287144#2287144 Author: Jay440
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 04 2006 at 19:07

Originally posted by Bastille Dude

Originally posted by Logan

Not only do I prefer Vander's drumming to Peart's, I also prefer his lyrics.  LOL


     LOLLOLLOL


Clap

He's not just an amazing drummer technically, but it's his approach to rythm that leads us to his compositions.....The last 8 minutes of Kohntarkosz Part II (especially from the original studio version and some audience tapes) is some of the most innovative manipulation of Time and Tempo I've ever heard, hands down, as well as one of the most intense Prog Climaxes ever!

It starts after the Guitar solo with the 4-note melody that it plays in sync with the piano repeating those 3 chords: It takes about 4 measures for those two independent melodies to come back around to starting on the same note.

That's the basis for it. Then they start messing with the syncopation and feel of those two things passing through each other, speeding it up into a fast, almost Rockabilly/Jump Swing tempo(LOL).

To dig what they do with it from there, go get a copy of it IMMEDIATELY if you don't have one.

Vander really pioneered something with that piece. I have never heard anything else like it since.

Zeuhl Music is built on that foundation of taking odd and even-numbered beats and melodic phrases overlapping, getting a Jazzy kind of SWING going with it, and taking the possibilities of all of that to some outrageous extremes through repetition and the adjustment of the phrasing which gives that feel of the Tempo expanding and contracting.

Whew!Wacko

Yeah.

So, how 'bout those lyrics of his, huh?







]]> Mon, 04 Dec 2006 19:07:10 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2287144#2287144 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : Originally posted by LoganNot... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2287059#2287059 Author: Bastille Dude
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 04 2006 at 17:41

Originally posted by Logan

Not only do I prefer Vander's drumming to Peart's, I also prefer his lyrics.  LOL


     LOLLOLLOL
]]> Mon, 04 Dec 2006 17:41:31 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2287059#2287059 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : For me Christian Vander is one... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2287043#2287043 Author: progadicto
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 04 2006 at 17:20

For me Christian Vander is one of the greatest drummers/compositor/lyriricst of any prog genre...
]]> Mon, 04 Dec 2006 17:20:36 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2287043#2287043 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : The interesting thing about Vander's... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2287025#2287025 Author: Syzygy
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 04 2006 at 16:55

The interesting thing about Vander's drumming (ok, one of many interesting things) is that he creates so much with a fairly standard 5/6 piece kit. The same can be said of Yoshida Tatsuya (Ruins etc) and Charles Hayward (This Heat, solo), while Chris Cutler's 'think fast, move slow' approach to drumming has to be seen to be believed. I've seen all of these guys performing in small venues and I think they could all be called master drummers.
 
Whether this makes them 'better' than Peart et al (but especially Peart) with their enormous Carl Palmer memorial kits is open to debate. They have radically different approaches and work in very different genres, so an objective comparison is difficult to make. Those RIO/Avant prog drummers I've spoken to over the years all seem to have a certain admiration for straight ahead rock drummers, particularly in hard rock/heavy metal, and Keith Moon seems to be a common favourite. Next time I'll ask specifically about Peart...
]]> Mon, 04 Dec 2006 16:55:10 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2287025#2287025 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : His drumming and Janick Top's... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2286954#2286954 Author: Visitor13
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 04 2006 at 15:55

His drumming and Janick Top's bass playing are the only things I find interesting about Magma.]]> Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:55:24 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2286954#2286954 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : Well.... Vander is a great drummer.... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2286921#2286921 Author: sularetal
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 04 2006 at 15:15

Well.... Vander is a great drummer. He was influenced mostly by Elvin Jones and you can see this at times. I own a dvd of him which also has a video from offering. It's really good. I highly recommend it. He is unique and a true genius (the brain behind magma). I don't like to compare bands or musicians so I won't say whether he is or not better than peart for example. I'll just say I'm more attracted by his playing Smile. Oh and the drummer of Focus is amazing as well.]]> Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:15:35 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2286921#2286921 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : Thanks Logan...interesting you... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2286878#2286878 Author: The Lost Chord
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 04 2006 at 14:04

Thanks Logan...interesting you bring up the guy from Focus, I remember playing some early focus for my dad and the drumming was amazing, and he LOVEs jazz and it had a kick to it and he was like wow this drummer is awesome!]]> Mon, 04 Dec 2006 14:04:22 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2286878#2286878 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : Not only do I prefer Vander's... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2286830#2286830 Author: Logan
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 04 2006 at 12:40

Not only do I prefer Vander's drumming to Peart's, I also prefer his lyrics.  LOL

There are many fantastic drummers in Prog (particularly, I think, in the Jazz Rock  Fusion category as I tend to prefer a jazzier approach) and Vander (along with Bruford) is always listed amongst my favourites (I must admit that I don't remember or know the names of most of the wonderful, to my ear, drummers in Prog I've heard).

Another drummer I often to refer to is Focus' van der Linden (mostly to compare him to Colin Allen - Hamburger Concerto - whose rockier approach I don't like as much).

But it isn't just because of Vander's ability as a drummer that keeps him in my mind whenever there are favourite drummers topics.
]]> Mon, 04 Dec 2006 12:40:24 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2286830#2286830 Christian Vander (Magma) Drumming? : Just curious, does anyone have... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2286768#2286768 Author: The Lost Chord
Subject: 31850
Posted: December 04 2006 at 11:23

Just curious, does anyone have anything to say about Christians drumming? I was watching some videos, and just for my own knowledge Id like to get to know what you guys think of him against say guys like Bruford or Peart...

Just cruious! Heard one guy say he was the best drummer ever so...and ive heard close to nothing!]]> Mon, 04 Dec 2006 11:23:51 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31850&PID=2286768#2286768