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  <title>Progressive Rock Music Forum : Getting estranged from prog</title>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :   As this thread appears to...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54542&amp;PID=3119040#3119040</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=123" rel="nofollow">Easy Livin</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 22 2009 at 15:37<br /><br />As this thread appears to have become somewhat <EM>estranged from prog</EM>, it will sit better in the general music discussions.]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :  ^ but how do you filter all...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54542&amp;PID=3119033#3119033</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=11714" rel="nofollow">moshkito</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 22 2009 at 15:35<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote">^ but how do you filter all the information?</td></tr></table><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>You know there is a saying out there ... when you know it ... it's easy ... when you don't ... it's hard.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>It's the same if you play an instrument or want to learn something about anything in life, be it about the lady, the man, the kids, the car ... you name it ...</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>My context (and ideas) come from a house that has 3k worth of classical music from the earliest to the likes of Stockhausen, LIgetti and Heinemman. And then, this fool started compiling his own collection ... and since I was european and had already heard a lot of fine music ... much pop stuff did not feel "authentic" or "exciting" ... at all ... I much preferred to hear Renata Tebaldi pop over her Turandot solos and arias&nbsp;than hear Mariah Carey with her (very nice) pipes .... but the music and the feeling behind it is ... empty to me ... does not have enough color behind my inner sight of music ... doesn't mean she is not a good singer or that Pavarotti was not good ... just means .... they do not resonate with me spirit.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Peter Michael Hamel wrote a book ... "From Music to the Self" ... and it is ... very good, once you get past his severe criticisms and occasional put downs of his own neighbors and artists around him ...&nbsp; but he has a couple of bits that are special ... one is about the musician that is playing a 1 string instrument and he is saying "I got it ... I got it" ... and no one else around him gets it, or can figure out "what" he is getting.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>You should get the ZEN meaning behind that one ... the message might also be ... there isn't one!</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>But it also tells you something very important that Peter does not mention ... and that is ... the "people" around this guy that is seeing things have a "concensus" (idea/opinion) and they are all basically agreeing that the old foggie playing one string is crazy ... AND .. if you ask me ... that is what happens here.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>That said ... I can not, and WILL NOT tell you something is not good ... it's not fair to the artist ... I will tell you that Chuck Berry is boring ... period. I will tell you that one of the best concerts I ever saw was YES doing Topographic Oceans at the Long Beach Arena ... but people were there to smoke dope and hear 3 other songs! I was not happy ... and I can tell you that neither were many others .... and hearing some KMET and KLOS idiots say that the new YES album was horrible ... and not "rock'n'roll" ... </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>YOu know what ... I don't give a cahoot if it is rock'n'roll or not ... is it good music ... is it kicking your butt ... or mine ... </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>End of the story ...</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Now this brings up the term "progressive" ... again .. based on the history of the long cut in radio in the past 40 years, I can tell you that there are ... maybe ... 10 bands that fit the term ... and I say that because they are so far out and bizarre and different ... that there are not enough labels to even call them ... the rest? ... just very good and expressive music ... get rid of the labels plz ... </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>You will learn, feel and appreciate a heck of a lot more ... do not EVER listen to something just because someone said it was progressive. </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>See yahh .. enjoy the music</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:35:08 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :   Originally posted by TrademarkIf...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54542&amp;PID=3119024#3119024</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2499" rel="nofollow">The Miracle</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 22 2009 at 15:30<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Trademark</strong></em><br /><br /><div><br></div>If you're asking if any other composer ever wrote a ballet score about a virgin who dances herself to death to appease the gods which featured flat-footed dancing, vigorous rhythms and dissonant octatonic harmonies? &nbsp;The answer would be probably not. &nbsp;If that equates to innovation for you, that's fine, but virtually all those separate elements had been used before to one extent or another by previous composers.<div></td></tr></table><br>&nbsp;<br>You mean the Rite Of Spring? Masterliness.<img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley14.gif" border="0" alt="Approve" title="Approve" /><br></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : Guys, if you don&amp;#039;t mind this...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=6936" rel="nofollow">Padraic</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 22 2009 at 15:08<br /><br />Guys, if you don't mind this conversation has gone <i>way</i> off-topic.&nbsp; If you want to continue this discussion about Stravinsky, please make a separate thread in the General Music forum.]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:08:47 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : I can&amp;#039;t find the examples...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54542&amp;PID=3118965#3118965</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=5214" rel="nofollow">Nuke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 22 2009 at 14:56<br /><br />I can't find the examples you gave. All I can find is you mentioned a few composers, perriot lunaire and Pictures at an exhibition. Did you accidentally post examples and delete it?]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : I&amp;#039;ve given plenty of examples,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=11140" rel="nofollow">Trademark</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 22 2009 at 13:24<br /><br /><div>I've given plenty of examples, I suggest you check into some of them.</div><div><br></div>If you're asking if any other composer ever wrote a ballet score about a virgin who dances herself to death to appease the gods which featured flat-footed dancing, vigorous rhythms and dissonant octatonic harmonies?  The answer would be probably not.  If that equates to innovation for you, that's fine, but virtually all those separate elements had been used before to one extent or another by previous composers.<div><br></div><div>By your definition the song Firehouse by Kiss is wildly innovative and revolutionary.  That guitar riff had never been heard before, no one had sung "whoo hoo yeah" quite like that, and that siren at the end, truly cutting edge stuff.  None of those very specific things had ever been put together before but does that make it revolutionary or innovative?  Not really.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : Okay, I understand that the elements...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=5214" rel="nofollow">Nuke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 22 2009 at 10:59<br /><br />Okay, I understand that the elements stravinsky used in his composition had all been used before. I know the octatonic scale was used before, that while he did previously unknown chords, so did other composers, and that in itself isn't revolutionary, and that polyrhythms had existed as a whole forever, and additive rhythms were nothing new, but what I am looking for is some composition that preempted the song the rite of spring. It doesn't matter if the elements were there. Everyone builds off of established elements, you can't say that since the elements were there, that the song wasn't innovative. To use a prog example, the elements were there before In the court of the crimson king, but nobody in his right mind would claim it isn't an innovative album. That's what I meant when I asked for a specific example. Something that had put the elements together before stravinsky, something that proves the rite of spring wasn't revolutionary or innovative, but just sounded revolutionary and innovative without the context of other pieces that had the same or similar sound, something that encapsulates the ideas of the rite of spring as a whole, even if it lacked the quality.]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 10:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : I&amp;#039;m not selling anything...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=11140" rel="nofollow">Trademark</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 22 2009 at 08:56<br /><br />I'm not selling anything so you don't need to buy it.  I'm just laying out the facts of the times.  Do your own research and come to your own conclusions.  The fact that it could<i><b> sound</b></i> revolutionary without <i><b>being</b></i> revolutionary in any way was the whole point I was trying to make.  That, in a nutshell, was Stravinsky's genius.]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 08:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :  Originally posted by TrademarkIt...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54542&amp;PID=3118632#3118632</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=4459" rel="nofollow">ShW1</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 22 2009 at 08:45<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Trademark</strong></em><br /><br />It certainly wasn't the first piece of its kind.&nbsp;&nbsp;</td></tr></table> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Trademark, What you write is interesting and compelling. But I dont agree with you, even though I'm not as expert as you. The point is not if some elements and tecniks of 'The rite of spring'&nbsp; has been done before or not. The point is how revolutionary this composition sound as a whole, back than, and still today. and it really does... </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>also I'm not so sure that the first theme sound to the audience so similar to the 'Paun' flute theme by Debussy. In fact its taken from a tradition russion song from the krapt hills or such<img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif" height="17" width="17" border="0" alt="Embarrassed" title="Embarrassed" />&nbsp;(I dont remember exactly at this moment). I dont 'buy' that 'Paun' story. The aucience was shoked from everything, they didnt understand what they are hearing or seeing, but they react in a very strong way, because the composition was so strong and unique....</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>back to the proggy thing: Baldies, I just wanted to say that although according to my own taste, I, as you, prefere more natural and organic productions, I dont agree with your attitude as a whole. There are so much good new things I am willing to hear (and dont reach it, due to time and money problems...) so many good things around, whether 70's like sound, or more modern sound, you just have to keep tracing reviews and recommandation, thats all. If you like to, find yourself a reviewer with similar taste as you, and follow the recommandation. </DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 08:45:41 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :  I did give some examples, but...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=11140" rel="nofollow">Trademark</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 22 2009 at 08:39<br /><br />I did give some examples, but I'll expand a bit here.  <div><br></div><div>The predominant harmony in The Rite of Spring is the octatonic scale (a pattern of alternating whole steps and half steps).  Both Alexander Scriabin and Mily Balikirev had explored the possibilities of the octatonic scales in years previous to Le Scare.  there are hints of it in much Russian folk song and Mussorgsky (a friend of balikirev) has hints of it in Pictures at an Exhibition.  <div><br></div><div>The other concept that drives the harmony of Le Sacre is tonal indeterminacy and again, Scriabin and Balikirev are excellent examples of this principle at work (Balikirev in the 1880s and Scriabin in the first decade of the 20th century.   There are entire books written on Wagner's "Tristan chord" and Scriabin's "Mystic chord".  The idea of this new type of tonal, yet undefined harmony were nothing new in 1913.</div><div><br></div><div>Stravinsky relied more heavily on the use of dissonance than the other two to accomplish the same goal, but interest in dissonance was also to be found <i>everywhere</i> in the first years of the century.  Schoenberg had created Perriot Lunaire a year before Le Scare and it was every bit as dissonant and jarring.  Schoenberg was exploring atonality (Perriot is NOT serialism, it is abstract atonality), as were many other composers at the time.  Stravinsky simply combined the dissonance of the time with the octatonic scales he knew from russian folk music.  He "created" nothing new, but used what was around him <i>and </i>was gaining popularity.  </div><div><br></div><div>The story with the rhythmic content of Le Scare is similar.  Additive meters were nothing particularly new at the time.  Bartok had made his collection of Hugarian folk music which used them extensively to mimic the slavic language speech patterns, and most of the russian composers had incorporated them into works after 1860 or so.  Polyrhythms were newer, but not unheard of.  Remember that part of the Primitivism movement involved exploring  "primitive" cultures.  So anyone interested in this as Stravnsky was had certainly seen and heard Gamelon orchestras, African drumming and other asian music (The Paris World's Fair in 1900 had all of these on display), all of which are heavily poyrhythmic.  Scriabin, again used polyrhythms in many of his piano sonatas.  Le Sacre is pretty primitive in its use of polyrhtyhm.  it is primarily an exercise in changing meters and shifting accent stresses and this was done to emphasize the primitive aspects of the story line), all of which had been done before,</div><div><br></div><div>Stravinsky had an uncanny knack for being able to sense what was going to be "the next big thing" and working with it in his own individual style.  That he was more successful than others shows his genius at working with existing material in a highly creative and individual way.  it does not show that he broke any new ground.  That's why he would be the guy who could make symphonic prog interesting and alive again, not by changing it, but by being better at working <i>within </i>the confines of the form.</div></div><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Trademark - January 22 2009 at 08:43</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 08:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : I&amp;#039;m having a bit of trouble...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=5214" rel="nofollow">Nuke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 21 2009 at 22:01<br /><br />I'm having a bit of trouble believing you. Could you tell me some specific compositions before the rite of spring that proves it wasn't the first of it's kind? I don't mean examples of primitivism, but something with the rhythms and harmonies that he used?]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 22:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :  Come on, sexy dancing causing...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=11140" rel="nofollow">Trademark</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 21 2009 at 21:05<br /><br />Come on, sexy dancing causing a problem in France?? They invented sexy dancing.<img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" alt="LOL" title="LOL" />  Anyway Salome was much worse in that respect.  She does this long erotic striptease (the dance of the seven veils) and then plants a wet sloppy kiss on the severed head of John The Baptist.  That didn't even cause a ripple in Paris.  No, the dancing and the dissonance were not the main issues.<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Trademark - January 21 2009 at 21:11</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:05:28 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : Well that&amp;#039;s disillusioning....</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=19841" rel="nofollow">Henry Plainview</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 21 2009 at 20:45<br /><br />Well that's disillusioning. :(<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>I have never even&nbsp;heard the Debussy thing before, everyone always says the dissonance or the sexy dancing.</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : You haven&amp;#039;t been lied to,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=11140" rel="nofollow">Trademark</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 21 2009 at 20:28<br /><br />You haven't been lied to, you just haven't been told the whole story.  It certainly wasn't the first piece of its kind.  Strass' Salome and Elektra had both explored very similar themes 3-5 years before.  Alexander Scriabin had been using ocattonic scales (which are fairly common in much Russian folk music) in his piano compositions for several years and Mussorgsy had hinted at the whole primitivism notion in the 1860's, so Bartok wasn't the only other game in town.  In the early 1900's Bartok was still out trudging around the woods in Hungary collecting the folk songs that would later help define his style.  Stravinsky's harmony and rhythms were modern but not ground breaking and were certainly nowhere near unprecedented.<div><br></div><div>Primitivism was a fairly short-lived movement.  It went started in earnest in the late 1890's and was done by the end of the 1920's.  Bartok was an anomoly.  He continued the style long after it went out of fashion. Stravinsky was certainly the most well known, but by no means the first or the only practitioner.  He was an expert at putting his ear to the ground and being able to hear what was coming. As a result, he always <i>seemed</i> to be on the cutting edge without ever really being there.  He's a great composer and deserves the fame and success he had, but he wasn't a "maverick".</div><div><br></div><div>And here's the real cause for the riot at the premier of Le Sacre.  The style of dance and the jarring rhythms were certainly off-putting to some of the audience, but the real problem arose from the bassoon melody that opens the piece.  This melody, which is played very high in the bassoon range is very similar to the flute part in the opening of Debussy's "Prelude to the Afternoon of  A Faun", and some folks thought that Stravinsky was poking fun at Debussy (especially by using the bassoon in that extreme range).  </div><div><br></div><div>The premiere was in Paris and Debussy was a national hero at that point.  The thought that he was being lampooned got people upset and they argued with others who saw it a different way.  Anyone who's studied any French history knows how volatile the "Paris Mob" can be and this is just another example.  It had far less to do with the primitivism and much more to do with the possibility that a Russian composer was making fun of France in Paris.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :  Originally posted by TrademarkNot...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=19841" rel="nofollow">Henry Plainview</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 21 2009 at 19:29<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Trademark</strong></em><br /><br />Not to nit pick here, but Stravinsky may not have been the best example to use here as he really never broke down any barrier nor worked outside of any established style in his life. &nbsp;Whether it be the primitivism of his early ballets (pioneered by Scriabin, Bartok and others), his neo-classical period, pioneered by Prokofiev and others) or his l;ate works using serial composition techniques (pioneered by Schoenberg and others), he<I><B> always </B></I>worked in an established structural framework.</td></tr></table> <DIV>So I have been lied to this whole time, and Rite of Spring was not the first piece of its kind? If so, then what <em>was</em>? The people in the audience just hadn't heard Bartok yet?</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :   Eh, it&amp;#039;s fair enough...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=5214" rel="nofollow">Nuke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 21 2009 at 19:20<br /><br />Eh, it's fair enough to nitpick. It's the best way to learn, right? I agree that stravinsky never actually broke any barriers, but he was very innovative. I mean, I've never heard a piece as innovative as the rite of spring. Sure, it is primitivism, and other composers were making primitivist pieces before him, but the rite of spring is in a class of its own. For example, the harmonies he used were pretty much unprecedented, and the rhythms he used were likewise very adventurous. I mean, I've read entire articles just devoted to one chord he created for the song. I agree that a lot of his other work isn't quite so innovative, but I was thinking of the rite of spring when I mentioned his name. If stravinsky were alive today and writing prog, what he would be doing would depend on how old he was <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" />. In his youth, he would be breaking down barriers, in his middle age he would be doing symphonic prog, and in his late life he would be hanging out with the avant prog folks and doing derivitive yet superior works. Perhaps beethoven would have been a better example (although people who don't know music history too well might not know how innovative he was). I dislike cage, but steve reich would also have been a better example. <span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Nuke - January 21 2009 at 19:24</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:20:02 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : Not to nit pick here, but Stravinsky...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=11140" rel="nofollow">Trademark</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 21 2009 at 15:54<br /><br />Not to nit pick here, but Stravinsky may not have been the best example to use here as he really never broke down any barrier nor worked outside of any established style in his life.  Whether it be the primitivism of his early ballets (pioneered by Scriabin, Bartok and others), his neo-classical period, pioneered by Prokofiev and others) or his l;ate works using serial composition techniques (pioneered by Schoenberg and others), he<i><b> always </b></i>worked in an established structural framework.<div><br></div><div>What set Stravinsky apart was the <i>way</i> he worked within these well-established styles.  He was able to establish his own personal identity within established forms without ever being particularly innovative.  He had such a unique personal voice that it came through no matter what style he worked in.  </div><div><br></div><div>If Stravnsky were around today (and writing prog) he would be the guy who could take symphonic prog and make it sound fresh and new and amazing without breaking a single rule or ever stepping outside the parameters of the style.</div><div><br></div><div>A better classical music example might be someone like John Cage who really did forge some new trails with little or no regard to how his experiments would be received by the public or by his peers.  The early minimalists might also serve well here.  Glass and Reich both had to hire musicians and pay them out of their own pockets (something most of us try to avoid) in order to have their music played at all.  Minimalism was completely shunned by the Serialist dominated academic music departments in the 60's and 70's.  It was only after it became a big seller on the concert circuit that that attitude began to change.  These might serve as better examples of breaking new ground and establishing a strong identity at the same time.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : Well, I&amp;#039;m not sure that too...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=5214" rel="nofollow">Nuke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 21 2009 at 15:23<br /><br />Well, I'm not sure that too much innovation makes you lose your identity. I mean, it seems to me like most great bands establish themselves by having a unique sound, by having innovations. I mean, the bands that broke all tradition and just did whatever they pleased have some of the strongest identities. King crimson? Magma? Ulver? Black Sabbath? Miles Davis? Igor Stravinsky? All have broken down barriers, and have established a strong identity. I very much disagree that too much innovation and experimentation makes you lose your identity. I think that as long as all of your music has something in common, something in common that it doesn't have in common with other music, then it will have an identity.]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : QUOTE &amp;#034; sure, breaking down...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=12560" rel="nofollow">Manuel</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 21 2009 at 14:53<br /><br />&nbsp;QUOTE " sure, breaking down barriers and reinventing genres is nice. But having listened to literally thousands of albums, I realize that - at least for me - it doesn't make sense to look for innovation all the time. At some point, if a band tries too hard to be experimental and innovative, they lose their identity (or fail to establish one in the first place). The really difficult thing is to walk the fine line between innovation and adherence to standards/tradition. And a band has to be creative ... which is entirely possible without being experimental and/or innovative. "<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Very good point, in an effort to be innovative, identity can be compromised.</DIV><DIV>I do believe that even though the music will always show influences from the people that inspires&nbsp;a band to create music, a touch of personality would make things better. Antother thing is the fact that many of todays prog bands self-produce their albums, and&nbsp;many of them don't have the experience, training of capacity to do the best job at it. A home studio these days can produce&nbsp;almost the&nbsp;same quality recording as a professional one, but without the experience of a well matured sound&nbsp;engineer and a first class producer, the&nbsp;final product will&nbsp;not be quite what was expected. On another hand, if the band gets together and records at the same time, and&nbsp;musicians brew the music together, will make a great difference. Nowadays, many bands just e-mail the samples and add their parts, loosing a lot of the organic feel to their compositions, and not creating a sense of unity within them.</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : ^ sure, breaking down barriers...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=21833" rel="nofollow">Mr ProgFreak</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 21 2009 at 11:24<br /><br />^ sure, breaking down barriers and reinventing genres is nice. But having listened to literally thousands of albums, I realize that - at least for me - it doesn't make sense to look for innovation all the time. At some point, if a band tries too hard to be experimental and innovative, they lose their identity (or fail to establish one in the first place). The really difficult thing is to walk the fine line between innovation and adherence to standards/tradition. And a band has to be creative ... which is entirely possible without being experimental and/or innovative.]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : Interesting direction this discussion...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=5214" rel="nofollow">Nuke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 21 2009 at 11:19<br /><br />Interesting direction this discussion has taken. It went from I wonder why I don't like new prog to whether disliking double bass makes you close-minded to a bit of philosophy on how to approach new music to the classic progressive vs. imitate the 70's argument. Anyways, I don't get what this big fuss about opeth is either, but I don't see them as regressive. They do keep trying new things, and they've developed a distinct style, so I can't fault them for lacking originality. I think the problem is that they achieved their vision by the second album, and ever since then they've just been working from within that framework. As long as that works for them, it's okay, but it sure won't excite me as much as the other band which is breaking down barriers and reinventing genres.]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : ^ this is why I introduced two...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=21833" rel="nofollow">Mr ProgFreak</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 21 2009 at 08:47<br /><br />^ this is why I introduced two different tags at PF to describe the "proggyness" ... a) progressive approach and b) prog style. Some bands are either one or the other ... some are both, some are none ... or anywhere in between. And usually, when you grow tired of the typical prog style, you should start looking for modern bands who still use a progressive approach in their music, but may be very different from the original prog bands (Yes, Genesis) in terms of style.]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : I think you make a great point...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=12560" rel="nofollow">Manuel</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 21 2009 at 08:36<br /><br />I think you make a great point here. The Flower Kings are a great band, but their yes/genesis sound ties them up quite a bit. Another example is the Spock's Beard, specially during the Neal Morse's period. Great bands, excellent music, but too tied up to the&nbsp;older prog bands to make&nbsp;an original sound.<DIV>I only hope that one day, bands who are really&nbsp;going the extra mile&nbsp;and trying to create a different sound/style, get more expossure and recognition for their efforts.&nbsp;</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:36:58 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : ^ My thoughts are, as always,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7500" rel="nofollow">Visitor13</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 21 2009 at 04:08<br /><br />^ My thoughts are, as always, that no one checks out Avestin's (and others') recommendations.<br><br>BTW, when prog bands really do adopt a 'challenging', 'anything goes' attitude, the reactions are usually WTF?!!! See KC's "Moonchild"... and Certified's review of it, for a dose of actual knowledge on the subject (a rare commodity)<br><br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 04:08:29 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : It&amp;#039;s quite a while back that...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=17175" rel="nofollow">npjnpj</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 21 2009 at 02:45<br /><br />It's quite a while back that somebody said (something along the following lines): <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>'The classic Prog bands took their inspiration from a wide range of sources: Classical, Traditional, Jazz, Be-Bop, Pop etc. They took these influences, and made them into something of their destinctive own. The new Prog bands sound as if the only musical influence they have is other Prog bands, and there's a lot missing in the end result.'</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>I think there's a lot to be said for this, and I'm especially looking at the Flower Kings and their offshoots, in this regard. Any thoughts?</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 02:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : Prog is the first music I ever...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=15854" rel="nofollow">Dan_</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 20 2009 at 21:11<br /><br />Prog is the first music I ever listened to, and I fondly remember the excitement I got from first properly discovering bands like Yes, Genesis, Camel, BJH etc. I too don't get any of these new bands that everyone raves about, stuff like Pendragon just sounds like MOR american rock with fiddly bits to me, without anything that made prog interesting in it. As a long-time metal fan as well, I find nothing interesting about bands like Opeth, who I REALLY don't understand the hype of. Second-rate (if I'm being generous) melodic death metal crossed with stolen Camel acoustic parts doesn't make for a great band to me! Also, I find ultra digital, pro-tools fixed recording makes the music sound very sterile, and takes away the spontaneous feel. I find a lot of people seem to be more interested in these new band's musical ability rather than their talents in songwriting and putting feeling and originality into a song.<br><br>I wouldn't say all is doom and gloom though, there are still plenty of very good bands to be discovered from the prog heydays, and now and again a real revelation such as Anglagard pops up as well. All musical styles have their times, and more productive and creative periods, but good stuff will always pop up amongst a deluge of crap bands, I think this is the case with all styles of music all the time.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:11:16 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :  Originally posted by ManuelAs...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=19983" rel="nofollow">Prospero</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 19 2009 at 18:33<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Manuel</strong></em><br /><br />As Steve Hackett mentioned one time, the old bands werenot trying to create "prog" music, but music that would challenge themand the listeners, that was inventive, creative, and the best theycould compose. Nowadays, bands have to sound "Prog" to be consideredprog, which means, they must have a yes, genesis, gentle giant, etctype of sound and elements in their music, along with long pieces,complex arrangements,&nbsp;odd metters, etc.</td></tr></table><br><br>I guess he is right. Perhaps someone did mention it, but the same thinggoes for most established rock genres. It is sad. There was a time whenI would listen to a lot of prog rock and metal music for example, but,these days, when I want to get challenged by the music I listen to, Iprefer the eclectic recordings of the ECM label.]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:33:52 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : I find myself very much in the...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=12560" rel="nofollow">Manuel</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 19 2009 at 16:28<br /><br />I find myself very much in the same situation. Personally, I think&nbsp; prog has become a "GENRE" and not an "APPROACH" to music as it used to be. As Steve Hackett mentioned one time, the old bands were not trying to create "prog" music, but music that would challenge them and the listeners, that was inventive, creative, and the best they could compose. Nowadays, bands have to sound "Prog" to be considered prog, which means, they must have a yes, genesis, gentle giant, etc type of sound and elements in their music, along with long pieces, complex arrangements,&nbsp;odd metters, etc. <DIV>It seems that creativity and&nbsp;originality are elements that are lacking in todays music, and the metal influence is so prominent, it does not&nbsp;allows room for a distinctive sound to be created.</DIV><DIV>As I mentioned before, this is just my opinion, and I don't want to start a whole thread here. This are just my thoughts, but make&nbsp;good reasons&nbsp;for me to look into other places for good music, even though I still consider myself a prog fan.&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:28:36 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :   Originally posted by CPicardPA...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10080" rel="nofollow">rogerthat</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 17 2009 at 20:39<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by CPicard</strong></em><br /><br />PA is a rather quiet and polite place on the internet, in comparison to other forums I can remember.</td></tr></table><div><br></div><div>Who says disagreement has to be all fistfights and slanging matches? Actually there's more scope for disagreement when people stay civil and respectful, because it reduces the need for mod intervention, which seems to be the case here. <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" />  Surely, we wouldn't have so many threads running into 14, 15 or more pages often on similar topics only about people saying they agree with each other. <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" alt="LOL" title="LOL" />  Consensus gets boring fast!</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:39:51 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : I cannot always listen to prog;...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=21279" rel="nofollow">Einsetumadur</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 17 2009 at 15:05<br /><br />I cannot always listen to prog;&nbsp; I also love&nbsp; psychedelic rock&nbsp; without any "progressivity"&nbsp; (Syd Barrett, Dandy Warhols,&nbsp; Brian Jonestown Massacre) &nbsp; or singer/songwriter material&nbsp; (Simon&amp;Garfunkel, Cohen, Mey)&nbsp; or to simple (alternative)&nbsp; rock/pop music.<br><br>Many&nbsp; members&nbsp; in here&nbsp; have the attitude&nbsp; that only&nbsp; music&nbsp; with strange rhythms,&nbsp; the highest requirements&nbsp; and lyrics without any colleration to everyday life&nbsp; is good and listenable.&nbsp; The more notes&nbsp; per second&nbsp; and the longer&nbsp; the epics,&nbsp;&nbsp; the better they are...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I couldn't disagree more.&nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>Talented songwriters&nbsp; like Dylan, Barrett, Simon or Harper&nbsp; can&nbsp; excite&nbsp; more&nbsp; feelings&nbsp; and&nbsp; can make the listener&nbsp; reflect more&nbsp;&nbsp; than pretty much of the&nbsp; hardcore proggers&nbsp; have done during their whole discography.&nbsp; Of course I love&nbsp; the&nbsp; mercilessly unconventional&nbsp; efforts and&nbsp; the&nbsp; way-out&nbsp; noises of King Crimson,&nbsp; but for me Simon&amp;Garfunkel&nbsp; are on the same level -&nbsp; with probably the total opposed genre,&nbsp; but with an effect of similar intensity&nbsp; on me.<br><br>The band&nbsp; that&nbsp; melts&nbsp; avantgarde, charme&nbsp; and beauty&nbsp; in a perfect way&nbsp; is&nbsp; Pink Floyd - and the effect is their #1 position in my top5&nbsp; band list.&nbsp; <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:05:01 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : PA is a rather quiet and polite...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=21404" rel="nofollow">CPicard</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 17 2009 at 14:51<br /><br />PA is a rather quiet and polite place on the internet, in comparison to other forums I can remember.]]>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :   Originally posted by Nuke  Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10080" rel="nofollow">rogerthat</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 17 2009 at 11:13<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nuke</strong></em><br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by rogerthat</strong></em><br /><br /><div><br></div><div>Well, I don't mean emotional in a happy/sad sense, just that something should arouse my curiosity or excitement somewhere. In any case, I look for drama and dynamics in music, not so much direct emotions like sorrow or anger. As you said, any sort of connection will do. <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif" border="0" alt="Thumbs Up" title="Thumbs Up" /></div><p></td></tr></table></p><p></p><p>Well then, we are in agreement! <b>Seeing how rare that is on the internet</b>, we should pat each other on the back. <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /></p></td></tr></table><div><br></div><div>Especially how rare that is on PA. <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :   Originally posted by rogerthat  Well,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=5214" rel="nofollow">Nuke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 17 2009 at 11:11<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by rogerthat</strong></em><br /><br /><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>Well, I don't mean emotional in a happy/sad sense, just that something should arouse my curiosity or excitement somewhere. In any case, I look for drama and dynamics in music, not so much direct emotions like sorrow or anger. As you said, any sort of connection will do. <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif" border="0" alt="Thumbs Up" title="Thumbs Up" /></DIV><P></td></tr></table></P><P></P><P>Well then, we are in agreement! Seeing how rare that is on the internet, we should pat each other on the back. <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /></P>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:11:18 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : ^ of course we could conduct a...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=21833" rel="nofollow">Mr ProgFreak</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 17 2009 at 03:25<br /><br />^ of course we could conduct a more specific poll. But still, I think that most people interpreted "if it fits the music" as double bass usage that exceeds the "gimmick" level.]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 03:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :   Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak^...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=20128" rel="nofollow">Kestrel</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 17 2009 at 03:20<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak</strong></em><br /><br />^ I only mean numerically speaking. Almost two years ago The T conducted a poll about double bass drumming:<BR><BR><a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34853" target="_blank">http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34853</A><BR><BR>Only about 4% seem to think that it's simply no good. Now, please let me say it again: I respect those opinions just like those of the majority. But if a newbie came along and asked for recommendations, telling him to avoid double bass drumming might not be such a helpful advice. At least you should mention that most other people have no problems with them.<BR><BR><P></td></tr></table></P><P>Eh... you could probably put anything in that poll and as long as there is a "if it fits the music" qualifier as a choice, that will be the prevailing answer. I generally dislike DBD (that Sonata Arctica song was particularly bad) but I would choose "if it fits the music." *shrug*</P>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 03:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : ^ I only mean numerically speaking....</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=21833" rel="nofollow">Mr ProgFreak</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 17 2009 at 02:52<br /><br />^ I only mean numerically speaking. Almost two years ago The T conducted a poll about double bass drumming:<br><br><a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34853" target="_blank">http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34853</a><br><br>Only about 4% seem to think that it's simply no good. Now, please let me say it again: I respect those opinions just like those of the majority. But if a newbie came along and asked for recommendations, telling him to avoid double bass drumming might not be such a helpful advice. At least you should mention that most other people have no problems with them.<br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 02:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :   Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Returning...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=20128" rel="nofollow">Kestrel</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 17 2009 at 02:33<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak</strong></em><br /><br /><BR><BR>Returning to the subject at hand: When BaldFriede says that she feels estranged from prog, *maybe* it's because of her somewhat unusual opinions about double bass drumming, prog metal, modern production and other things that is making it difficult for her to find modern, prog-related music to enjoy to other than "post-prog" projects of her favorite prog artists from the 70s.<BR><P></td></tr></table></P><P>Not to nitpick (well, I am but whatever), but I don't think that her opinion is unusual at all. </P>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 02:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :   Originally posted by Trademark&amp;#034;Why...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=21833" rel="nofollow">Mr ProgFreak</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 17 2009 at 02:09<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Trademark</strong></em><br /><br />"<span style="">Why don't we let the others decide which one of us is right and then move on"</span><div><span style=""><br></span></div><div><span style="">This illustrates&nbsp;<i>precisely</i> the point I made earlier that you took offense to. &nbsp;For me it has nothing whatsoever to do with "being right", and everything to do with saying what I happen to believe is true and hearing what others think. &nbsp;This whole issue is a subjective one, there can be no right. &nbsp;Where actual issues of fact are concerned its a different story. &nbsp;Bit this It's about discussion and an exchange of views (opinions). &nbsp;For you, Mike, it seems that you are concerned more with "winning" or "being right" than with simply stating your views and <i>accepting</i> the views of others, be it about double bass drumming tagging or anything else. &nbsp;With you it seems to be agree or be wrong, win or lose and its kind of sad.</span></div><div><span style=""><br></span></div><div><span style=""></span></td></tr></table><br><br>For the sake of closure, I'll post a final reply to this matter. For reasons unknown you again quoted me wrong ... in that line I wasn't referring to the double bass drumming. I was referring to your accusing me of being hypocritical, and applying different standards to others than I do to myself. Let's not continue this any further here ... what I had meant - and maybe failed to express properly in English - was that I wasn't interested in being a winner or being right. People who were following the discussion can simply decide for themselves which one of us they find more plausible. If some agree with you and think that I'm a hypocritical, self-righteous idiot - then I don't have any problem with that. Personally, I'd like to think that none of us are perfect ... and surely none of us will win any prize in diplomacy for our posts here.<img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><br><br>And just to say it one more time: I don't have any problem with accepting other people's opinions, no matter how strange they are. It's when they impose these opinions on others, or try to establish them as guidelines for newbies when they are really an isolated point of view with little to none support in the community ... then I take offense and will always react.<br><br>Returning to the subject at hand: When BaldFriede says that she feels estranged from prog, *maybe* it's because of her somewhat unusual opinions about double bass drumming, prog metal, modern production and other things that is making it difficult for her to find modern, prog-related music to enjoy to other than "post-prog" projects of her favorite prog artists from the 70s.<br></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 02:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :   Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak^...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=20123" rel="nofollow">Jozef</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 16 2009 at 23:32<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak</strong></em><br /><br />^&nbsp;<img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif" border="0" alt="Clap" title="Clap" /> Agree 100%. For example, when I first heard them, I couldn't tolerate Opeth because of the vocals. Eventually though, I developed a taste for their music, and that in turn opened the door for further explorations in Death/Black Metal. I don't think that this will always happen ... but it can.</td></tr></table><br><br>I agree with you. I've noticed that I've become a bit more "liberal" when it comes to listening to music. Before I couldn't stand to listen to death growls but after previewing and listening to bands such as Between the Buried and Me and Opeth, I have developed a liking to tech/extreme metal and wish to explore it more. The musicianship for some of these bands is amazing and the vocals actually fit quite well with the subject matter. <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif" border="0" alt="Thumbs Up" title="Thumbs Up" /><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:32:25 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :   Originally posted by Nuke&#160;Fair...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10080" rel="nofollow">rogerthat</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 16 2009 at 22:25<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nuke</strong></em><br /><br /> <p></p><p>Fair enough. I guess it just takes a bit less to interest me than some people. You're right, I wouldn't have listened to it again if absolutely nothing in it had interested me. I don't think it has to be an emotional connection right from the inception though. I think any sort of connection will do. There was no emotional connection to the schoenberg violin concerto the first time I heard it, it really seemed like random notes. I knew there was some order to it, a very complex structure, so I kept listening to it to really explore that, but I had no emotional connection to it for the first 4 or so listens. So, I guess I agree with most of your post, but I just take issue with the overemphasis on the emotional connection.  I think I go halfway between your "investigative" angle and your "appreciation" angle, because I do sometimes expose myself unfamiliar genres just to pick up ideas, even though I don't have much use for the ideas (although I do enjoy writing songs on garageband and practicing a few instruments). I'm still never judgemental though. If I don't appreciate a song, I merely shelve it, maybe to come back, or maybe not, depending on how I'm feeling.</p></td></tr></table><div><br></div><div>Well, I don't mean emotional in a happy/sad sense, just that something should arouse my curiosity or excitement somewhere. In any case, I look for drama and dynamics in music, not so much direct emotions like sorrow or anger. As you said, any sort of connection will do. <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif" border="0" alt="Thumbs Up" title="Thumbs Up" /></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:25:36 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :   Originally posted by moshkitoHi,  So...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=21833" rel="nofollow">Mr ProgFreak</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 16 2009 at 11:46<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by moshkito</strong></em><br /><br />Hi,<div>&nbsp;</div><div>So sad that some spammers can actually kill a thread that ... for all intents and purposes is actually really good for anyone that enjoys listening to music ... most of us don't have a problem with liking and appreciating a few different things ... at all.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Can we banish those folks to the Metallica-wish-you-were-prog thread instead? They really don't belong here.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Thx</div></td></tr></table><br><br>I'd be happy to return to the subject at hand ... as far as the double bass drumming is concerned, it's not *that* far off the topic, since it's one of the reasons why some people feel estranged at least from modern prog. <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : Sorry, it was a double post and...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=5214" rel="nofollow">Nuke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 16 2009 at 11:46<br /><br />Sorry, it was a double post and it won't let me delete it. Mods feel free to delete this<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Nuke - January 16 2009 at 11:50</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :   Originally posted by rogerthatBut...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=5214" rel="nofollow">Nuke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 16 2009 at 11:45<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by rogerthat</strong></em><br /><br /><BR><DIV>But you wouldn't  have revisited it if it did not at all intrigue you at all at any level, is it not?  There has to be some emotional connection right from inception, otherwise it's rare that music you found absolutely deadpan and boring turned out to be super exciting - it is in such cases that developing a comfort level after many listens can be said to be forcing oneself to like it.  Again, there may be exceptions, but they don't make the rule. When I first listened to Gentle Giant, I was like, "What the hell!" All the same, I thought, "Damn, this is interesting" and I kept coming back till I liked it, song in question being "Experience".  My first extreme metal song was Raining Blood and I was flabbergasted to put it mildly by the frenetic activity encapsulated in a peak of about two minutes, but I sensed the drama lurking beneath the apparent chaos.  I am certain that if I had - like the majority of people - thought it to be utter noise garbage, I would have never become an extreme metal fan.  If there' s nothing to excite my curiousity first time around, there's not much incentive for me to return and like I said earlier, there's heaps of music to be discovered, who cares if I am "judgmental" about a few bands, so be it, I can live with it.  If I were a professional musician, I would however look at music more from an "investigative" angle, expose myself to unfamiliar genres just to pick up new ideas; as it is now, I look at it only from the perspective of appreciation and it looks to me as if my approach is reasonable. If it's not, I couldn't care less about it anyway.  </DIV><P></td></tr></table></P><P></P><P>Fair enough. I guess it just takes a bit less to interest me than some people. You're right, I wouldn't have listened to it again if absolutely nothing in it had interested me. I don't think it has to be an emotional connection right from the inception though. I think any sort of connection will do. There was no emotional connection to the schoenberg violin concerto the first time I heard it, it really seemed like random notes. I knew there was some order to it, a very complex structure, so I kept listening to it to really explore that, but I had no emotional connection to it for the first 4 or so listens. So, I guess I agree with most of your post, but I just take issue with the overemphasis on the emotional connection.  I think I go halfway between your "investigative" angle and your "appreciation" angle, because I do sometimes expose myself unfamiliar genres just to pick up ideas, even though I don't have much use for the ideas (although I do enjoy writing songs on garageband and practicing a few instruments). I'm still never judgemental though. If I don't appreciate a song, I merely shelve it, maybe to come back, or maybe not, depending on how I'm feeling.</P>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:45:05 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : &amp;#034;Why don&amp;#039;t we let the...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=11140" rel="nofollow">Trademark</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 16 2009 at 11:27<br /><br />"<span ="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-border-horiz&#111;ntal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ">Why don't we let the others decide which one of us is right and then move on"</span><div><span ="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-border-horiz&#111;ntal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;"><br></span></div><div><span ="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-border-horiz&#111;ntal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;">This illustrates <i>precisely</i> the point I made earlier that you took offense to.  For me it has nothing whatsoever to do with "being right", and everything to do with saying what I happen to believe is true and hearing what others think.  This whole issue is a subjective one, there can be no right.  Where actual issues of fact are concerned its a different story.  Bit this It's about discussion and an exchange of views (opinions).  For you, Mike, it seems that you are concerned more with "winning" or "being right" than with simply stating your views and <i>accepting</i> the views of others, be it about double bass drumming tagging or anything else.  With you it seems to be agree or be wrong, win or lose and its kind of sad.</span></div><div><span ="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-border-horiz&#111;ntal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;"><br></span></div><div><span ="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-border-horiz&#111;ntal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;"><br></span></div><div><span ="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-border-horiz&#111;ntal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;"><br></span></div><div><span ="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-border-horiz&#111;ntal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;"><br></span></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:27:24 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : Hi,  So sad that some spammers...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=11714" rel="nofollow">moshkito</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 16 2009 at 11:02<br /><br />Hi,<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>So sad that some spammers can actually kill a thread that ... for all intents and purposes is actually really good for anyone that enjoys listening to music ... most of us don't have a problem with liking and appreciating a few different things ... at all.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Can we banish those folks to the Metallica-wish-you-were-prog thread instead? They really don't belong here.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Thx</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :   Originally posted by Nuke&#160;I...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10080" rel="nofollow">rogerthat</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 16 2009 at 10:23<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nuke</strong></em><br /><br /> <p>I really don't see how the aim of finding merit in music you are uncomfortable with negates your emotional reaction. Back a few months ago, I decided to listen to 12 tone music, and I was <em>very</em> uncomfortable with it. If I had your attitude, I would have given up, but I didn't. I listened to the schoenberg violin concerto several times, and each time I listened to it, I discovered more to like about it, until finally it became one of my favorite songs. There was no "negation of the emotional reaction" or whatever. That said, I don't regularly force myself to listen to music I am uncomfortable with, but it is a good thing to do once in a while.</p></td></tr></table><div><br></div><div>But you wouldn't  have revisited it if it did not at all intrigue you at all at any level, is it not?  There has to be some emotional connection right from inception, otherwise it's rare that music you found absolutely deadpan and boring turned out to be super exciting - it is in such cases that developing a comfort level after many listens can be said to be forcing oneself to like it.  Again, there may be exceptions, but they don't make the rule. When I first listened to Gentle Giant, I was like, "What the hell!" All the same, I thought, "Damn, this is interesting" and I kept coming back till I liked it, song in question being "Experience".  My first extreme metal song was Raining Blood and I was flabbergasted to put it mildly by the frenetic activity encapsulated in a peak of about two minutes, but I sensed the drama lurking beneath the apparent chaos.  I am certain that if I had - like the majority of people - thought it to be utter noise garbage, I would have never become an extreme metal fan.  If there' s nothing to excite my curiousity first time around, there's not much incentive for me to return and like I said earlier, there's heaps of music to be discovered, who cares if I am "judgmental" about a few bands, so be it, I can live with it.  If I were a professional musician, I would however look at music more from an "investigative" angle, expose myself to unfamiliar genres just to pick up new ideas; as it is now, I look at it only from the perspective of appreciation and it looks to me as if my approach is reasonable. If it's not, I couldn't care less about it anyway.  </div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :  Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak^...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54542&amp;PID=3112510#3112510</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=9476" rel="nofollow">Alberto Muñoz</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 16 2009 at 09:56<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak</strong></em><br /><br />^ not at all. She's not simply saying "I don't like double bass drumming", she says that it's a ridiculous thing to do (as a drummer), or to take seriously (as a listener). That's insulting IMO ... if you can't agree then maybe I'm expecting too much of you (you called Mike Portnoy an idiot a few posts ago ... clearly you have no problem with insulting people).<BR><BR>I would not call someone close-minded just because they don't like double-bass drumming. But I would call someone close-minded who thinks that everyone who likes double-bass drumming has bad taste.<BR></td></tr></table> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>I like DBD, so i have bad taste???<img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" height="17" width="17" border="0" alt="LOL" title="LOL" /><img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" height="17" width="17" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /></DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : ^ Agree 100%. For example, when...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54542&amp;PID=3112476#3112476</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=21833" rel="nofollow">Mr ProgFreak</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 16 2009 at 09:16<br /><br />^&nbsp;<img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif" border="0" alt="Clap" title="Clap" /> Agree 100%. For example, when I first heard them, I couldn't tolerate Opeth because of the vocals. Eventually though, I developed a taste for their music, and that in turn opened the door for further explorations in Death/Black Metal. I don't think that this will always happen ... but it can.]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog :   Originally posted by rogerthatAs...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54542&amp;PID=3112468#3112468</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=5214" rel="nofollow">Nuke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 16 2009 at 09:08<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by rogerthat</strong></em><br /><br /><BR><P>As you get more experienced with appreciating music, you are able to rationalize to a large extent why you like some sounds and why not some others, but the point is, you still react to it, it arouses emotion within you and that's what it boils down to at the heart of it.  I also don't see much point in attempting to negate this emotional reaction with the aim of seeing merit in music that you are wholly uncomfortable with, you could say that you are opening your mind to different approaches or that you are simply forcing yourself to like it. </td></tr></table></P><P>I really don't see how the aim of finding merit in music you are uncomfortable with negates your emotional reaction. Back a few months ago, I decided to listen to 12 tone music, and I was <EM>very</EM> uncomfortable with it. If I had your attitude, I would have given up, but I didn't. I listened to the schoenberg violin concerto several times, and each time I listened to it, I discovered more to like about it, until finally it became one of my favorite songs. There was no "negation of the emotional reaction" or whatever. That said, I don't regularly force myself to listen to music I am uncomfortable with, but it is a good thing to do once in a while.</P>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Getting estranged from prog : I honestly don&amp;#039;t have time...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54542&amp;PID=3112451#3112451</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=21833" rel="nofollow">Mr ProgFreak</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 54542<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> January 16 2009 at 08:55<br /><br /><img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" alt="LOL" title="LOL" /> I honestly don't have time for this. Why don't we let the others decide which one of us is right and then move on? I definitely have more idiotic stuff to do ...<br><img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" alt="LOL" title="LOL" />]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
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