Progressive Rock Music Forum : Prog Definition http://www.progarchives.com/forum/ This is an XML content feed of; Progressive Rock Music Forum : Prog Music Lounge : Prog Definition Copyright (c) 2006-2009 Web Wiz Forums - All Rights Reserved. Tue, 21 May 2013 10:52:54 +0000 Tue, 24 Jul 2012 00:53:13 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 9.69 360 www.progarchives.com/forum/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=85459 Progressive Rock Music Forum http://www.progarchives.com/forum/css_styles/mac-prog/PAlogo_v2.gif http://www.progarchives.com/forum/ Prog Definition : A band that strives for originality... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4580831#4580831 Author: BassoonAng
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 24 2012 at 00:53

A band that strives for originality in tonal tendency, character of sound, rhythm, time, and blend.

Can't put a finger on it, but that's what I look for.
]]> Tue, 24 Jul 2012 00:53:13 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4580831#4580831 Prog Definition : ^^^ Good point. I wouldn't... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4570928#4570928 Author: rogerthat
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 11 2012 at 20:16

^^^ Good point.  I wouldn't say combining jazz with thrash (T-H-R-A-S-H Tongue) is not innovative at all but it is not as innovative as combing rock with jazz was in the 60s.   ]]> Wed, 11 Jul 2012 20:16:46 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4570928#4570928 Prog Definition : Originally posted by tamijo Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4570505#4570505 Author: HackettFan
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 11 2012 at 12:27

Originally posted by tamijo


Originally posted by HackettFan

Originally posted by tamijo


Originally posted by HackettFan

(e.g. Combining jazz and rock was innovative at one time in history, but it no longer is).


 
Depends..i would say if you combine a more resent Rock (say Trash Metal) with Jazz (say Hawkins style Sax)
would still be very innovative, at least i cant remember anything close to that.


I completely agree, but you've redefined the rock category to be trash metal, so it's different.

 
Offcourse its diffrent, every time you listen to new music, its diffrent.
But Metal is Rock, mixed with Jazz, chances are, it would be possible to put in JRF. Would depend a lot on the mix of things.  
 
 
 


The issue is whether the differences are innovative. When I used the word 'different' I meant that it's a different situation categorically. If you are conflating Trash Metal and Rock, why are you bothering to identify a batch of music under the heading of Trash Metal? I presumed you were using it to create a distinction and justify how a new category within rock could be used to create an innovative new fusion type. True, Trash Metal has its roots in Rock, but Rock and Jazz both have common roots in the Blues. The categories of music adjust over time, and what counts as an innovation is historically grounded. I continue you to see no problem with my claim here. Soft Machine did not combine Jazz and Trash Metal, because there was no Trash Metal back then. I think we can agree on that for sure. Even if we talk about innovations of technique, Steve Hackett was incredibly innovative at the time when he came up with two handed tapping. Everyone does it now, so it is difficult to call it innovative any longer.]]> Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:27:38 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4570505#4570505 Prog Definition : whenever I write a list of things... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4570420#4570420 Author: Stool Man
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 11 2012 at 10:37

whenever I write a list of things - which is often - I usually end it with 'other', 'other', and 'other'.
And that also applies to my definition of Prog.
]]> Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:37:32 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4570420#4570420 Prog Definition : Originally posted by HackettFan Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4570222#4570222 Author: tamijo
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 11 2012 at 06:07

Originally posted by HackettFan

Originally posted by tamijo


Originally posted by HackettFan

(e.g. Combining jazz and rock was innovative at one time in history, but it no longer is).


 
Depends..i would say if you combine a more resent Rock (say Trash Metal) with Jazz (say Hawkins style Sax)
would still be very innovative, at least i cant remember anything close to that.


I completely agree, but you've redefined the rock category to be trash metal, so it's different.
 
Offcourse its diffrent, every time you listen to new music, its diffrent.
But Metal is Rock, mixed with Jazz, chances are, it would be possible to put in JRF. Would depend a lot on the mix of things.  
 
 
 
]]> Wed, 11 Jul 2012 06:07:19 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4570222#4570222 Prog Definition : Ok, so no meta thread... Throughout... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4570218#4570218 Author: Formentera Lady
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 11 2012 at 05:51

Ok, so no meta thread... Throughout the various threads covering this topic, I have read some good definitions/comments from people, but the thing is that I can't find them any more because they are so spread. So I would like it, if you repost (rewrite, re-invent or whatever), what you regard as your best answer to this question, what you think is prog rock for you.

My 5 pence to it was an answer to the post from maani in another thread:

Originally posted by Formentera Lady

Originally posted by maani


It is not exactly "elegant," but here is the definition I use:
 
"Progressive rock” is a mindset, a conscious and deliberate approach to writing rock music based on certain elements, which usually include some or all of the following: incorporation of Western (classical, jazz et al), Eastern (Indian, Middle Eastern et al) and/or “world” (African, Latin et al) influences; use of non-standard (for rock) chord progressions; use of odd and/or shifting time signatures; use of non-standard instrumentation (from sax, flute or violin to sitar, bagpipes or African percussion); an “orchestral” (i.e., “scored”) approach to arrangement; extended compositions, often including extended instrumental passages; virtuoso musicianship, often including extended solos; lyrics that tend toward the esoteric or “fantastical” and/or include numerous “literary” references; and the use of keyboards (Mellotron, synthesizers, etc.) and the recording studio itself to create effects, “textures” and “atmospheres.”
 
Peace.

This comes quite close to my opinion. I would like to add:
- (mostly) approach to build the song like a structured mini-composition, consisting of a beginning/intro, one or more middle parts and an ending/finale, similar to some of the classical compositions
- often polyphonic use of voice and instruments, vocals are treated as one instrument among others
- often use of counterpoint in the melodic composition
- often extreme change of dynamics
- change of rhythm/time within the song

]]> Wed, 11 Jul 2012 05:51:42 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4570218#4570218 Prog Definition : Just to clarify, the post above... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4569490#4569490 Author: Easy Livin
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 10 2012 at 14:22

Just to clarify, the post above by Formentera lady and npjnpj were originally in a separate thread, bu they have been merged into this existing discussion on the same topic.

]]> Tue, 10 Jul 2012 14:22:24 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4569490#4569490 Prog Definition : This meta-thread is treading a... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4569345#4569345 Author: npjnpj
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 10 2012 at 12:52

This meta-thread is treading a dangerous line. The people who have been here a while have seen this discussion numerous times, but it will always be an interesting topic to (relative) newcomers, and rightly so. And probably this revived topic will see some new thoughts too.

This is a prog site, and the discussion about the definition should be an ongoing one, especially as it hasn't been universally resolved yet.

What's the point in pointing any interested members to old links, thereby reducing a forum discussion to an uncommunicative reading excercise?

You just turn interested new members away with that attitude. I dislike forums that do that and hope this one doesn't turn into that
]]> Tue, 10 Jul 2012 12:52:39 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4569345#4569345 Prog Definition : Originally posted by HackettFan Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4569221#4569221 Author: rogerthat
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 10 2012 at 10:45

Originally posted by HackettFan

Originally posted by rogerthat


Originally posted by HackettFan

The forum is in no shortage of people who want to avoid categorization, apparently because they see progressive rock as continually defying categorization. But how can one flout a category if there are no categories to flout??? Progressive rock needs categories as raw material to reshape. It would cease to exist without them (as would language and several other cognitive processes).
Only to the extent that prog rock listeners need to classify music as such and such.  It is hardly so relevant to an artist and his quest for innovation.  Was the connotation progressive applied in the time of Vivaldi or Beethoven or even, much later, Louis Armstrong or Charlie Parker?


Thanks for the post, but I'm afraid I can't agree. It's very important to the musicians themselves. Frank Zappa has always intentionally juxtaposes different styles. These are not just random notes he felt like playing that by some coincidence might start out like rock and then morph into perhaps a Broadway show tune. Peter Gabriel has worked with World Music and in fact uses the term. Now what is World Music? Steve Hackett spent time in South America learning about their style of acoustic guitar. Geographic region is just another parameter with which to categorize something. I have to stand by my comment that categories are a raw material that musicians/artists work with. Musical categories don't exist prior to us creating them, and they can be re-analyzed in any number of ways, but that just means that we can't look at things in unsophisticated ways.


I was addressing prog categories specifically and not categories generally.  Even generally speaking, it is an open minded artist who does not think two pieces of a puzzle cannot fit just because they are categorized as different styles.  They see possibilities in achieving a blend of both styles but it is not always a conscious exercise and I would have to disagree to that extent.  Musicians absorb diverse influences and express those intuitively in the compositional process.   Whereas the purpose of categories seems to militate against blending and endorse distinction and discrimination and the delineating of boundaries.   Derek Trucks is considered creative for his fresh approach to blues but this is also a function of blues drawing very tight stylistic boxes for itself, which forces many other artists to sound too much like each other.

Coming back to prog, my point was that a Miles Davis may have simply set out to explore his insights and expound them in music.  It was not as if he set out to make what would be called progressive jazz and such was his command to innovate.  It is a post-facto term.   Applying your thesis that categories are raw material for musicians to the extant prog categories...I am not quite sure how it would work.  I have difficulties with the two most commonly used terms - symphonic prog and eclectic prog.  Um, does this mean to say symphonic prog rock bands are not eclectic?  That would (a) go against a very basic feature of prog, which is to demonstrate different styles in the same work and (b) not be supported by historical precedents.  What is the basis, ultimately, for classifying Yes as symphonic prog rock band and Gentle Giant as eclectic?  The only difference is that Yes use that wall-of-sound effect for which they get called symphonic, but they certainly are eclectic themselves.  And so are Genesis or ELP for that matter.   What again is the difference between heavy prog and prog metal?  Metal by definition is heavy music.   

I do understand exactly what listeners mean when they peruse of these above classifications, but they only highlight simplistic and superficial differences, which I frankly cannot see as being particularly useful for artists.  Prog rock by its nature is more an approach than a rigid, frozen style and by consciously choosing such an approach to make his music, the artist has already classified himself.  Further subdivision may at the most help listeners seek more of the same of what they already like, which all listeners, including progressive ones, like to do and that's as far as it goes.      
]]> Tue, 10 Jul 2012 10:45:40 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4569221#4569221 Prog Definition : The topic, what is prog rock and... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4569019#4569019 Author: Formentera Lady
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 10 2012 at 06:41

The topic, what is prog rock and what it is not, is so often discussed to death, and still there are people, who rise the same question over and over again.

So my idea is to make this meta thread, in which you do NOT post your opinion to this topic directly, but instead you post a link only (from this forum), where you think you had your best definition/comment on this topic, like this:

My best comment/definition on this topic is in:
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72827&PN=7

(And, of course, the PA definition of prog rock is here.)

Now your turn.

Wink
]]> Tue, 10 Jul 2012 06:41:01 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4569019#4569019 Prog Definition : Originally posted by tamijo Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4568231#4568231 Author: HackettFan
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 09 2012 at 11:21

Originally posted by tamijo


Originally posted by HackettFan

(e.g. Combining jazz and rock was innovative at one time in history, but it no longer is).


 
Depends..i would say if you combine a more resent Rock (say Trash Metal) with Jazz (say Hawkins style Sax)
would still be very innovative, at least i cant remember anything close to that.


I completely agree, but you've redefined the rock category to be trash metal, so it's different.]]> Mon, 09 Jul 2012 11:21:29 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4568231#4568231 Prog Definition : Originally posted by The_Jester<... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4567853#4567853 Author: HackettFan
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 08 2012 at 21:20

Originally posted by The_Jester

< ="" ="text/" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">

I think that if we want to have a true prog definition it needs to include every progressive artists (wich, as a matter of fact, is another problem because one may find an artist proggy and another not) and sub-genres.


I don't think there "true" definitions of anything that includes every member of a category without incorrectly eliminating others. Progressive Rock is a prototype. Symphonic Prog is a prototype. Some bands are central to the prototype others are more marginal. I see no reason to define a category around more marginal members of any such category.]]> Sun, 08 Jul 2012 21:20:29 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4567853#4567853 Prog Definition : Originally posted by rogerthat Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4567820#4567820 Author: HackettFan
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 08 2012 at 21:01

Originally posted by rogerthat


Originally posted by HackettFan

The forum is in no shortage of people who want to avoid categorization, apparently because they see progressive rock as continually defying categorization. But how can one flout a category if there are no categories to flout??? Progressive rock needs categories as raw material to reshape. It would cease to exist without them (as would language and several other cognitive processes).
Only to the extent that prog rock listeners need to classify music as such and such.  It is hardly so relevant to an artist and his quest for innovation.  Was the connotation progressive applied in the time of Vivaldi or Beethoven or even, much later, Louis Armstrong or Charlie Parker?


Thanks for the post, but I'm afraid I can't agree. It's very important to the musicians themselves. Frank Zappa has always intentionally juxtaposes different styles. These are not just random notes he felt like playing that by some coincidence might start out like rock and then morph into perhaps a Broadway show tune. Peter Gabriel has worked with World Music and in fact uses the term. Now what is World Music? Steve Hackett spent time in South America learning about their style of acoustic guitar. Geographic region is just another parameter with which to categorize something. I have to stand by my comment that categories are a raw material that musicians/artists work with. Musical categories don't exist prior to us creating them, and they can be re-analyzed in any number of ways, but that just means that we can't look at things in unsophisticated ways.]]> Sun, 08 Jul 2012 21:01:18 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4567820#4567820 Prog Definition : I&#039;d say that progressive... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4567117#4567117 Author: The_Jester
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 08 2012 at 09:47

< ="" ="text/" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">I'd say that progressive rock is a style of rock with no boundaries and that is thought of (real arrangements, think about the notes you play, real themes, etc.).
This definition is large so I guess it is good. I don't care if you don't personally agree as, like Dean said, when you want to make people adhere to your own personal views it becomes a problem but I think that if we want to have a true prog definition it needs to include every progressive artists (wich, as a matter of fact, is another problem because one may find an artist proggy and another not) and sub-genres.]]> Sun, 08 Jul 2012 09:47:14 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4567117#4567117 Prog Definition : Originally posted by Dean Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4567104#4567104 Author: dtguitarfan
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 08 2012 at 09:27

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by smartpatrol

I agree with Iazland that we all have our own definitions of progressive rock/music. My personal definition is anything that makes strides in musical innovation and experimentation
Which is all well and good if you keep it to yourself. The problem with such a definition comes when you use it in conversation with anyone else, or expect others to adhere to your personal definition. Then it becomes misleading and confusing, and at worse - wrong. A Prog definition needs to be universally accepted by the majority so we can all talk using the same vocabulary and have it mean the same thing, personal definitions can never achieve that.

Dean, for once: you are my hero.
]]> Sun, 08 Jul 2012 09:27:27 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4567104#4567104 Prog Definition : Originally posted by smartpatrolI... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4567016#4567016 Author: Dean
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 08 2012 at 05:29

Originally posted by smartpatrol

I agree with Iazland that we all have our own definitions of progressive rock/music. My personal definition is anything that makes strides in musical innovation and experimentation
Which is all well and good if you keep it to yourself. The problem with such a definition comes when you use it in conversation with anyone else, or expect others to adhere to your personal definition. Then it becomes misleading and confusing, and at worse - wrong. A Prog definition needs to be universally accepted by the majority so we can all talk using the same vocabulary and have it mean the same thing, personal definitions can never achieve that.]]> Sun, 08 Jul 2012 05:29:28 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4567016#4567016 Prog Definition : I agree with Iazland that... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4565942#4565942 Author: smartpatrol
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 07 2012 at 03:18

I agree with Iazland that we all have our own definitions of progressive rock/music. My personal definition is anything that makes strides in musical innovation and experimentation]]> Sat, 07 Jul 2012 03:18:15 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4565942#4565942 Prog Definition : live damn it liveeeeelike all... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4565897#4565897 Author: frippism
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 07 2012 at 02:20

live damn it liveeeee

like all art. It is everything and nothing.

looll woot YOLO rarrhhrhrhrh
]]> Sat, 07 Jul 2012 02:20:35 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4565897#4565897 Prog Definition : Ya, lets keep this one alive to... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4565888#4565888 Author: tamijo
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 07 2012 at 02:08

Ya, lets keep this one alive to avoid another one Big smile

Edited by tamijo - July 07 2012 at 02:09]]> Sat, 07 Jul 2012 02:08:39 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4565888#4565888 Prog Definition : 9 pages on this again? http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4565641#4565641 Author: topographicbroadways
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 06 2012 at 22:02

9 pages on this again? Confused


]]> Fri, 06 Jul 2012 22:02:33 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4565641#4565641 Prog Definition : Originally posted by HackettFanThe... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4565615#4565615 Author: rogerthat
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 06 2012 at 21:29

Originally posted by HackettFan

The forum is in no shortage of people who want to avoid categorization, apparently because they see progressive rock as continually defying categorization. But how can one flout a category if there are no categories to flout??? Progressive rock needs categories as raw material to reshape. It would cease to exist without them (as would language and several other cognitive processes).


Only to the extent that prog rock listeners need to classify music as such and such.  It is hardly so relevant to an artist and his quest for innovation.  Was the connotation progressive applied in the time of Vivaldi or Beethoven or even, much later, Louis Armstrong or Charlie Parker?
]]> Fri, 06 Jul 2012 21:29:21 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4565615#4565615 Prog Definition : Originally posted by HackettFan(e.g.... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4564751#4564751 Author: tamijo
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 06 2012 at 06:34

Originally posted by HackettFan

(e.g. Combining jazz and rock was innovative at one time in history, but it no longer is).

 
Depends..i would say if you combine a more resent Rock (say Trash Metal) with Jazz (say Hawkins style Sax)
would still be very innovative, at least i cant remember anything close to that.
]]> Fri, 06 Jul 2012 06:34:11 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4564751#4564751 Prog Definition : The forum is in no shortage of... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4562271#4562271 Author: HackettFan
Subject: 85459
Posted: July 03 2012 at 17:21

The forum is in no shortage of people who want to avoid categorization, apparently because they see progressive rock as continually defying categorization. But how can one flout a category if there are no categories to flout??? Progressive rock needs categories as raw material to reshape. It would cease to exist without them (as would language and several other cognitive processes). Here's how I think of things myself:

Avant-Garde music: music that is comprised of innovations affecting melody, chords, harmony, timing, timbre, choice of instrumentation, new instrumentation, composition & arrangement, concept development, mood changes, predictability, and genre. What counts as an innovation is always contingent upon how something is historically grounded (e.g. Combining jazz and rock was innovative at one time in history, but it no longer is).

Progressive Rock: a sub-type of avant-garde music that was characterized by a network of influences originating in England beginning in the late 1960s (exemplars- Genesis, Gentle Giant, King Crimson, Yes). This network of influences has continued to grow (unevenly) through time and geography.

Art Rock: a sub-type of avant-garde music that was characterized by a network of influences originating in California beginning in the mid 1960s and continuing onward (exemplars- Frank Zappa & The Mothers of Invention, Captain Beefheart, Henry Kaiser, Steve Vai).

This approach allows for much needed sophistication in that some musicians are either more highly or less highly entrenched within a category. Occasional crossovers between progressive rock and art rock are also possible (e.g. Adrian Belew, Chester Thompson).

Also look at how else this can be applied:

Neo-Prog: a continuation of a network of influences originating in England beginning in the late 1960s that is at best marginally avant-garde.

]]> Tue, 03 Jul 2012 17:21:21 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4562271#4562271 Prog Definition : On this website I have seen... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4461114#4461114 Author: JJLehto
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 14 2012 at 19:21

On this website I have seen years and maybe a few novels worth of debate on this very topic.

My conclusion:

No one has any ideaLOL

Like any art form it can be whatever it is to you.

I have noticed it falls into:

Rock that is progressive. Quite simply, rock music (which can be metal) that progresses!

A somewhat looser but related opinion is any rock that deviates from the "standard". Ya know: few chords, short song, chorus/verse, 4/4 time sig build to solo, music carries the vocals rock music. If it's not that, it's prog.


Extra kudos if it includes electronic influences, jazz/classical/world music, and atonality and crazy musical things I get but don't fully grasp!
I take the somewhat vague: Rock based music that is unorthodox in song structure and/or general composition.
What that means I have no clue but I know it when I hear it, which is all you can do...decide for yourselfSmile

edit: Oh of course there are then the plethora of sub genres! Post rock, prog metal, tech metal, canterbury, krautrock, zeuhl, symphonic etc etc this is a whole 'nother universe to figure outLOL




Edited by JJLehto - March 14 2012 at 19:22]]> Wed, 14 Mar 2012 19:21:06 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4461114#4461114 Prog Definition : Originally posted by Dellinger Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4461103#4461103 Author: Dean
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 14 2012 at 19:06

Originally posted by Dellinger

Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by infandous

I always preferred the term "art rock" myself.


 
In retrospect I do too. Specially as it shows an inclination to do more than just something that is as defined as what has become known as "progressive".

 

I think the biggest isse, is that some of the folks came from the Sex Pistols and Iggy Pop school and then others were thrashing like the heathens ... and then the word "art rock" started taking a hit. But I have to tell you that back in the day in Southern California, we used to call all these "imports" ... not anything else! Why? You could not get them in any other form!

 

And then 1974 and 1975 arrived!



I would prefer that label too, it kind of defines better what I like about prog. Though, then perhaps the bands listed as prog may end up being somewhat different. I would say that something like Cat Steven's "Tea for the Tillerman" would fit in the description of "Art Rock". Plus, as a matter of fact, all music is art, the quality of the art is what differs (and then, the quality of the art is measured by whomever is listening).
That's a pretty good example of the nail hitting the hammer square on the head.... on the left you got this huge bunch of artists and albums called "Art Rock" and on the right another huge bunch of artists and albums called "Progressive Rock" - somewhere in the middle you're gonna have some artists and albums that will be in both piles, but over to the left there will be many, many Art Rock artists and albums that are not Progressive Rock and way over to the right there will be a many, many Progressive Rock artists and albums that are not Art Rock. Nebulous groupings of things are great and can be very useful when used correctly, but when used incorrectly they're next door to useless and in our case being "art" is not enough, it's too nebulous and too inexact; and quality has nothing to do with it - bad art is still art just as bad Prog is still Prog.


Edited by Dean - March 14 2012 at 19:07]]> Wed, 14 Mar 2012 19:06:21 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4461103#4461103 Prog Definition : Originally posted by moshkito Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4461087#4461087 Author: Dellinger
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 14 2012 at 18:52

Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by infandous

I always preferred the term "art rock" myself.


 
In retrospect I do too. Specially as it shows an inclination to do more than just something that is as defined as what has become known as "progressive".

 

I think the biggest isse, is that some of the folks came from the Sex Pistols and Iggy Pop school and then others were thrashing like the heathens ... and then the word "art rock" started taking a hit. But I have to tell you that back in the day in Southern California, we used to call all these "imports" ... not anything else! Why? You could not get them in any other form!

 

And then 1974 and 1975 arrived!



I would prefer that label too, it kind of defines better what I like about prog. Though, then perhaps the bands listed as prog may end up being somewhat different. I would say that something like Cat Steven's "Tea for the Tillerman" would fit in the description of "Art Rock". Plus, as a matter of fact, all music is art, the quality of the art is what differs (and then, the quality of the art is measured by whomever is listening).]]> Wed, 14 Mar 2012 18:52:33 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4461087#4461087 Prog Definition : Originally posted by Epignosis Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4461028#4461028 Author: Dean
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 14 2012 at 17:46

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by Dean

One obvious sign of the USA hanging on to the old ways is they still sell petrol by the gallon, whereas the UK is by the litre.  


Um, correction: We sell it by the dollar.  Geek








Many many dollars. Ouch
Many, many dollars less than anywhere else.]]> Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:46:39 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4461028#4461028 Prog Definition : Originally posted by Dean Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460983#4460983 Author: Gerinski
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 14 2012 at 16:59

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Gerinski

 
I wrote out of memory and after a quick check I concede that you are right, apparently it was the LM team in Denver Colorado who used imperial units (sorry for calling them "british").
In any case this brings doubts about your statement that "a UK-based engineering company would never use imperial measurements for anything", surely LM Colorado used imperial units because of some reason, even if they were based in the US, and the first idea to come to mind is because their mother headquarter company is UK based?
 
Nah, Lockheed and Martin were wholly US owned and the merged company's HQ is in Maryland. The USA still uses archaic imperial units though they call them US Customary Units (inches, feet, miles, pounds, foot-pounds, etc.) [wiki/United_States_customary_units] though most US industries have converted to the metric system in recent years due to cock-ups like the MCO and the need to conform with the rest of the world if they want to do business. One obvious sign of the USA hanging on to the old ways is they still sell petrol by the gallon, whereas the UK is by the litre.  
You win, I have no problem with that, I was just trying to be more pedantic than I really am Tongue

Edited by Gerinski - March 14 2012 at 17:12]]> Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:59:44 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460983#4460983 Prog Definition : Originally posted by DeanOne... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460961#4460961 Author: Epignosis
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 14 2012 at 16:37

Originally posted by Dean

One obvious sign of the USA hanging on to the old ways is they still sell petrol by the gallon, whereas the UK is by the litre.  


Um, correction: We sell it by the dollar.  Geek








Many many dollars. Ouch
]]> Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:37:23 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460961#4460961 Prog Definition : Originally posted by Gerinski... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460953#4460953 Author: Dean
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 14 2012 at 16:32

Originally posted by Gerinski

 
I wrote out of memory and after a quick check I concede that you are right, apparently it was the LM team in Denver Colorado who used imperial units (sorry for calling them "british").
In any case this brings doubts about your statement that "a UK-based engineering company would never use imperial measurements for anything", surely LM Colorado used imperial units because of some reason, even if they were based in the US, and the first idea to come to mind is because their mother headquarter company is UK based?
 
Nah, Lockheed and Martin were wholly US owned and the merged company's HQ is in Maryland. The USA still uses archaic imperial units though they call them US Customary Units (inches, feet, miles, pounds, foot-pounds, etc.) [wiki/United_States_customary_units] though most US industries have converted to the metric system in recent years due to cock-ups like the MCO and the need to conform with the rest of the world if they want to do business. One obvious sign of the USA hanging on to the old ways is they still sell petrol by the gallon, whereas the UK is by the litre.  ]]> Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:32:07 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460953#4460953 Prog Definition : Originally posted by Dean Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460915#4460915 Author: Gerinski
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 14 2012 at 16:02

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Gerinski

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Evolver

For a thread about a style of music women don't like, this one sure has a lot of discussion aboutr mensuration.
 
...nevermind
Though the two words sound similar (to those who've never said them out loud Wink) - they have different etymologies: mensuration from the Latin mensurare "to measure" and menstruation from the Latin mensis "month or moon" - and while a month is a unit of measurement, it is not the act of measuring. Geek Still, let's not allow pedantry to spoil a humorous post... Tongue
 
 
Don't worry more pedantic would be someone pointing out that in your discussion of mensuration you did not make reference to the measurement problem of quantum physics, or that missing the criticality of the 1st rule caused the loss of the Mars Climate Orbiter spacecraft in 1999, when engineers of Lockheed Martin in the UK had used british measurement units and the rest of the NASA team had used metric units for the navigation control Embarrassed
Being pedantic, it was the other way around - The on board nav software used SI units for thrust and the Nasa ground crew were feeding it data in imperial (not "british" as you say as we have been "metric" since 1971) . A UK-based engineering company would never use imperial measurements for anything and I'm not too sure there was any Brit involvement in this project, I think it was Lockheed Martin Astronautics of Denver.Big smile
 
I wrote out of memory and after a quick check I concede that you are right, apparently it was the LM team in Denver Colorado who used imperial units (sorry for calling them "british").
In any case this brings doubts about your statement that "a UK-based engineering company would never use imperial measurements for anything", surely LM Colorado used imperial units because of some reason, even if they were based in the US, and the first idea to come to mind is because their mother headquarter company is UK based?
 
]]> Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:02:44 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460915#4460915 Prog Definition : No surprice someone will put up... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460782#4460782 Author: tamijo
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 14 2012 at 13:20

No surprice someone will put up a tread like this every 3 - 5 months
But amasing it will go 8 full pages every time.
]]> Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:20:29 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460782#4460782 Prog Definition : Originally posted by Gerinski Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460781#4460781 Author: Dean
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 14 2012 at 13:20

Originally posted by Gerinski

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Evolver

For a thread about a style of music women don't like, this one sure has a lot of discussion aboutr mensuration.
 
...nevermind
Though the two words sound similar (to those who've never said them out loud Wink) - they have different etymologies: mensuration from the Latin mensurare "to measure" and menstruation from the Latin mensis "month or moon" - and while a month is a unit of measurement, it is not the act of measuring. Geek Still, let's not allow pedantry to spoil a humorous post... Tongue
 
 
Don't worry more pedantic would be someone pointing out that in your discussion of mensuration you did not make reference to the measurement problem of quantum physics, or that missing the criticality of the 1st rule caused the loss of the Mars Climate Orbiter spacecraft in 1999, when engineers of Lockheed Martin in the UK had used british measurement units and the rest of the NASA team had used metric units for the navigation control Embarrassed
Being pedantic, it was the other way around - The on board nav software used SI units for thrust and the Nasa ground crew were feeding it data in imperial (not "british" as you say as we have been "metric" since 1971) . A UK-based engineering company would never use imperial measurements for anything and I'm not too sure there was any Brit involvement in this project, I think it was Lockheed Martin Astronautics of Denver.Big smile]]> Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:20:14 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460781#4460781 Prog Definition : Originally posted by infandousI... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460758#4460758 Author: moshkito
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 14 2012 at 12:43

Originally posted by infandous

I always preferred the term "art rock" myself.
 
In retrospect I do too. Specially as it shows an inclination to do more than just something that is as defined as what has become known as "progressive".
 
I think the biggest isse, is that some of the folks came from the Sex Pistols and Iggy Pop school and then others were thrashing like the heathens ... and then the word "art rock" started taking a hit. But I have to tell you that back in the day in Southern California, we used to call all these "imports" ... not anything else! Why? You could not get them in any other form!
 
And then 1974 and 1975 arrived!
]]> Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:43:29 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460758#4460758 Prog Definition : Originally posted by Dean Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460752#4460752 Author: Gerinski
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 14 2012 at 12:39

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Evolver

For a thread about a style of music women don't like, this one sure has a lot of discussion aboutr mensuration.
 
...nevermind
Though the two words sound similar (to those who've never said them out loud Wink) - they have different etymologies: mensuration from the Latin mensurare "to measure" and menstruation from the Latin mensis "month or moon" - and while a month is a unit of measurement, it is not the act of measuring. Geek Still, let's not allow pedantry to spoil a humorous post... Tongue
 
 
Don't worry more pedantic would be someone pointing out that in your discussion of mensuration you did not make reference to the measurement problem of quantum physics, or that missing the criticality of the 1st rule caused the loss of the Mars Climate Orbiter spacecraft in 1999, when engineers of Lockheed Martin in the UK had used british measurement units and the rest of the NASA team had used metric units for the navigation control Embarrassed
]]> Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:39:16 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460752#4460752 Prog Definition : I always preferred the term &#034;art... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460678#4460678 Author: infandous
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 14 2012 at 11:07

I always preferred the term "art rock" myself.]]> Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:07:31 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4460678#4460678 Prog Definition : Originally posted by EvolverFor... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458451#4458451 Author: Dean
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 11 2012 at 17:57

Originally posted by Evolver

For a thread about a style of music women don't like, this one sure has a lot of discussion aboutr mensuration.
 
...nevermind
Though the two words sound similar (to those who've never said them out loud Wink) - they have different etymologies: mensuration from the Latin mensurare "to measure" and menstruation from the Latin mensis "month or moon" - and while a month is a unit of measurement, it is not the act of measuring. Geek Still, let's not allow pedantry to spoil a humorous post... Tongue]]> Sun, 11 Mar 2012 17:57:10 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458451#4458451 Prog Definition : Originally posted by javier0889 Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458421#4458421 Author: VanVanVan
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 11 2012 at 17:05

Originally posted by javier0889

Originally posted by Evolver

For a thread about a style of music women don't like, this one sure has a lot of discussion aboutr mensuration.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
...nevermind

that's so true
I mean... does it really matter what the dictionary says about prog? Just shut up and listen to the damn albums, yeah

But then what would there be to argue about? LOL
]]> Sun, 11 Mar 2012 17:05:55 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458421#4458421 Prog Definition : We need someone to re-post the... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458317#4458317 Author: CPicard
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 11 2012 at 14:31

We need someone to re-post the Cracked article, the Onion article, mix it with various comments from the "Why women don't like prog" and we will have the perfect definition and "prog". ]]> Sun, 11 Mar 2012 14:31:41 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458317#4458317 Prog Definition : Originally posted by Evolver For... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458306#4458306 Author: javier0889
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 11 2012 at 14:18

Originally posted by Evolver

For a thread about a style of music women don't like, this one sure has a lot of discussion aboutr mensuration.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
...nevermind

that's so true
I mean... does it really matter what the dictionary says about prog? Just shut up and listen to the damn albums, yeah
]]> Sun, 11 Mar 2012 14:18:22 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458306#4458306 Prog Definition : For a thread about a style... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458305#4458305 Author: Evolver
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 11 2012 at 14:16

For a thread about a style of music women don't like, this one sure has a lot of discussion aboutr mensuration.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
...nevermind
]]> Sun, 11 Mar 2012 14:16:46 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458305#4458305 Prog Definition : What about this album, released... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458231#4458231 Author: octopus-4
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 11 2012 at 12:59

What about this album, released in December 1969 by Deram, just three months after In The Court Of The Crimson King?

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=8007 

Deram used the word "progressive" with Stan Kenton in mind.


Edited by octopus-4 - March 11 2012 at 13:00]]> Sun, 11 Mar 2012 12:59:40 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458231#4458231 Prog Definition : Originally posted by Snow... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458217#4458217 Author: frippism
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 11 2012 at 12:40

Originally posted by Snow Dog

Originally posted by frippism

Originally posted by Snow Dog

Originally posted by dtguitarfan

.....in THIS genre, it IS important to know the difference between crap and good music.

Really? What is crap music? What is good?

Anything after Dec. 31st, 1979, is the spawn of Satan. That's a fact.

Cheers! Good to know. At last a meaningful definition!

Embarrassed

I can't handle kind words.
]]> Sun, 11 Mar 2012 12:40:24 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458217#4458217 Prog Definition : Originally posted by frippism Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458200#4458200 Author: Snow Dog
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 11 2012 at 12:12

Originally posted by frippism

Originally posted by Snow Dog

Originally posted by dtguitarfan

.....in THIS genre, it IS important to know the difference between crap and good music.

Really? What is crap music? What is good?

Anything after Dec. 31st, 1979, is the spawn of Satan. That's a fact.

Cheers! Good to know. At last a meaningful definition!
]]> Sun, 11 Mar 2012 12:12:16 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458200#4458200 Prog Definition : Originally posted by Snow... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458194#4458194 Author: frippism
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 11 2012 at 12:09

Originally posted by Snow Dog

Originally posted by dtguitarfan

.....in THIS genre, it IS important to know the difference between crap and good music.

Really? What is crap music? What is good?

Anything after Dec. 31st, 1979, is the spawn of Satan. That's a fact.
]]> Sun, 11 Mar 2012 12:09:57 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458194#4458194 Prog Definition : found this on tumblr:htt... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458178#4458178 Author: javier0889
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 11 2012 at 11:57

found this on tumblr:

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lye3vjMbFD1r9qtuco1_500.png">

I doubt any of you could possibly come with a better definition.


Edited by javier0889 - March 11 2012 at 11:59]]> Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:57:22 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458178#4458178 Prog Definition : Originally posted by akaBona Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458167#4458167 Author: Snow Dog
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 11 2012 at 11:46

Originally posted by akaBona

Originally posted by rogerthat

Originally posted by Slartibartfast

Originally posted by rogerthat

    It cannot simply be about putting together 20 minute epics with long solo sections for the musicians to show off. If all prog was like that, I would positively HATE the genre too.

What if it were done in the style of country music?  Oh wait, that's the Grateful Dead. Tongue


I have never heard the Grateful Dead so I can't really relate to that comparison.

Lord knows I have tried and tried, but Grateful Dead still sounds so boring to me ...

I have no interest in ever listening to them.
]]> Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:46:51 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458167#4458167 Prog Definition : Originally posted by rogerthat Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458156#4458156 Author: akaBona
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 11 2012 at 11:32

Originally posted by rogerthat

Originally posted by Slartibartfast

Originally posted by rogerthat

    It cannot simply be about putting together 20 minute epics with long solo sections for the musicians to show off. If all prog was like that, I would positively HATE the genre too.

What if it were done in the style of country music?  Oh wait, that's the Grateful Dead. Tongue


I have never heard the Grateful Dead so I can't really relate to that comparison.

Lord knows I have tried and tried, but Grateful Dead still sounds so boring to me ...
]]> Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:32:15 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458156#4458156 Prog Definition : Originally posted by Slartibartfast Originally... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458079#4458079 Author: rogerthat
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 11 2012 at 08:48

Originally posted by Slartibartfast

Originally posted by rogerthat

    It cannot simply be about putting together 20 minute epics with long solo sections for the musicians to show off. If all prog was like that, I would positively HATE the genre too.

What if it were done in the style of country music?  Oh wait, that's the Grateful Dead. Tongue


I have never heard the Grateful Dead so I can't really relate to that comparison.
]]> Sun, 11 Mar 2012 08:48:10 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458079#4458079 Prog Definition : Originally posted by rogerthat... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458062#4458062 Author: Slartibartfast
Subject: 85459
Posted: March 11 2012 at 08:19

Originally posted by rogerthat

    It cannot simply be about putting together 20 minute epics with long solo sections for the musicians to show off. If all prog was like that, I would positively HATE the genre too.

What if it were done in the style of country music?  Oh wait, that's the Grateful Dead. Tongue
]]> Sun, 11 Mar 2012 08:19:21 +0000 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85459&PID=4458062#4458062