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  <title>Progressive Rock Music Forum : Election 2012 (USA)</title>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : Thing is Slart, you only bash...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4513845#4513845</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7686" rel="nofollow">JJLehto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 20 2012 at 13:05<br /><br />Thing is Slart, you only bash one side and not the other. <br>Comes off as partsian<br>Even in your "I'm not partisan" you come off as, well partisan. <br><br>You never seem to actually bash the other side. "We're not all lock step with Obama" isn't really much<img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" alt="LOL" title="LOL" /><br>So you must understand where we come from, you <i>present</i> yourself as hardcore Democrat supporter. <br>If so just admit it, but if you area kind of unhappy with them/they're the lesser of 2 evils...vote with your heart Slart. <br><br>Write in Sanders<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2012 13:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : What arguments have you ever made?We&amp;#039;ve...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4513785#4513785</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=18069" rel="nofollow">manofmystery</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 20 2012 at 12:17<br /><br />What arguments have you ever made?&nbsp;We've tried reasoning with you in the past and all you do is ignore it and post another cartoon.&nbsp; Rall's cartoon is completely meaningless in this conversation because you're voting for Obama anyway.&nbsp; You are marching side-by-side with the "Obama can do no wrong" crowd in November so all your pokes at him are disingenuous.&nbsp; You bend over backwards to try to show you disagree with him and also to rationalize your upcoming vote for him.&nbsp; It shows an utter lack of spine, nothing more.&nbsp; Ever think that the lesser of two evils garbage is something we have to deal with precisely because of people like yourself?]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2012 12:17:37 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :    Originally posted by manofmysteryYou...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4512843#4512843</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8161" rel="nofollow">Slartibartfast</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 19 2012 at 07:53<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by manofmystery</strong></em><br /><br />You are one of them.&nbsp; The reason I probably sound condesending is that I legitimately do not have one shred of respect for you.&nbsp; You've managed to work your way right down to zero.&nbsp; I mean, you try to save your earlier post (in which you continue your asinine assertion that you're not a sterotype then immediately spew the "lesser of two evils" garbage") by posting a cartoon mocking Obama's employment record and bloodthirsty nature.&nbsp; Yes, the guy is using drones to murder all kinds of people overseas but that's ok because...you know....uh....lesser of two evils.&nbsp; You are all talk when it comes to politics.&nbsp; There's no credibility to you even on issues we supposedly agree on because at the end of the day you don't vote on any issue but D or R.&nbsp; The only thing Obama could have done to lose your vote was switch parties.</td></tr></table><br>Your lack of respect has been obvious it isn't anything new.&nbsp; Neither is your inability to appreciate the fact that the reasons why I vote D instead of R is because of political positions not party.&nbsp; You can't accept that because it doesn't fit your narrative and so you turn to condescension and disrespect because you can't honestly counter my arguments and at the end of the day that is all you have in your arsenal combined with the blanket dismissal of my positions as being disingenuous, insincere, or lacking in credibility.<br><br>The reason that I posted Ted Rall's cartoon is to engage in a futile effort to point out to you that there are those of us, however you want to categorize our political beliefs, that aren't all lockstep "Obama can do no wrong".&nbsp; There are plenty of critics.&nbsp; Still a McCain Palin administration or a Romney Ryan administration would have and would be more detrimental to this country than Obama's despite all its shortcomings.&nbsp; You can't have your fantasy candidate Ron Paul in the presidency any more than I could have Bernie Sanders.&nbsp; The lesser of two evils isn't garbage it's the reality you have to deal with.&nbsp; <br><br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Slartibartfast - May 19 2012 at 07:54</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2012 07:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : Randy Blythe from Lamb of God...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4512544#4512544</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7686" rel="nofollow">JJLehto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 18 2012 at 22:34<br /><br />Randy Blythe from Lamb of God is, supposedly, running for President. <br><br>He doesn't state any views except all the current politicians suck, but that if elected President his very first act will be to get shot. <br>Have someone shoot him with a non lethal bullet. <br><br><br>Then he needs to drag himself at least 50 yards to medical help. <br>Also that he would submit himself to boot camp, and if analyze our foreign policy, and if he decides troops should be deployed he will personally kill one of the enemies. <br>All this being he should understand truly the decisions being made before subjecting people to them. <br><br>Ya know....I kind of like it, and may have to vote for someone who's very first act as President is to get shot<img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" alt="LOL" title="LOL" /><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 22:34:57 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : You are one of them. The reason...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4512531#4512531</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=18069" rel="nofollow">manofmystery</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 18 2012 at 22:14<br /><br />You are one of them.&nbsp; The reason I probably sound condesending is that I legitimately do not have one shred of respect for you.&nbsp; You've managed to work your way right down to zero.&nbsp; I mean, you try to save your earlier post (in which you continue your asinine assertion that you're not a sterotype then immediately spew the "lesser of two evils" garbage") by posting a cartoon mocking Obama's employment record and bloodthirsty nature.&nbsp; Yes, the guy is using drones to murder all kinds of people overseas but that's ok because...you know....uh....lesser of two evils.&nbsp; You are all talk when it comes to politics.&nbsp; There's no credibility to you even on issues we supposedly agree on because at the end of the day you don't vote on any issue but D or R.&nbsp; The only thing Obama could have done to lose your vote was switch parties.]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 22:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : Not quite what I said. MoM said...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4511549#4511549</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8161" rel="nofollow">Slartibartfast</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 17 2012 at 15:18<br /><br />Not quite what I said.&nbsp; MoM said I was no different than anyone mindlessly voting republican.&nbsp; I totally accept that there are people out there who mindlessly vote democratic, too.&nbsp; I was merely stating that I was not one of them and I would not accuse him of being mindless in his voting habits.&nbsp;]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 15:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : Lovely. So you&amp;#039;re &amp;#034;informed&amp;#034;...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4511531#4511531</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=12042" rel="nofollow">Finnforest</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 17 2012 at 14:46<br /><br /><P>Lovely.&nbsp; So you're "informed" and those who disagree with you are "mindless" in their voting. Gotcha.&nbsp; And you're not being "condescending" there.&nbsp; </P><DIV>Brian, you just can't accept that people don't agree with you, so you have to name call.&nbsp; Same old story.</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 14:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :     Originally posted by manofmystery Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4511324#4511324</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8161" rel="nofollow">Slartibartfast</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 17 2012 at 10:26<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by manofmystery</strong></em><br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Slartibartfast</strong></em><br /><br />Presidents aren't gods and elections have consequences even if there isn't enough difference between the two candidates.&nbsp; The notion that the left is as radicalized as the right these days is utter nonsense.</td></tr></table>&nbsp; <div>&nbsp;</div><div>Your clinging to the left vs right game is nonsense (which has been explained to you many time over several threads).&nbsp; It's the type of thinking you exhibit that allows both parties to steal more and more power to control our lives.&nbsp; At the end of the day you are no different than someone mindlessly pulling the republican lever every election cycle.&nbsp; You're both helping government grow, driving the country into bankruptcy, giving&nbsp;a thumbs up to neverending wars, including the drug war which has only gotten more and more wasteful and ridiculous in the last 4 years.&nbsp; If you use your classic left vs. right logic then you'll be&nbsp;voting for the re-election of&nbsp;the one of the most right-wing presidents in our history, as far as foreign policy, domestic "security", and&nbsp;"criminal justice" are concerned.&nbsp; Sorry, I forgot, warfare and an utter lack of respect for civil liberties are only "right wing"&nbsp;ideals when the president is a republican.</div></td></tr></table><br>Hey, I cling to Fahrenheit and Feet and Inches too.&nbsp; It's just a gauge for measuring things.&nbsp; You can "explain" things all you want, that doesn't make you right, it only makes you look like a condescending a****le.&nbsp; <br><br>At the end of the day I am different from someone mindlessly pulling the republican lever because I am informed when I got the polls.&nbsp; <br><br>You know big government is an easy amorphous thing to be against, that's why you keep trotting it out.&nbsp; It's not how big the government is that is important as what it does and doesn't do.&nbsp; <br><br>You conveniently forget that I don't fit into your stereotypical liberal ideal and that I am in fact with you on many issues.&nbsp; But at the end of the day, the lesser of evils is still less evil and if there's just a dime's worth of difference between the two parties, I'll take what I can get.<br><br><div id="comic">			<div id="comic">			<img src="http://www.rall.com/rallblog/comics/2012-05-07.jpg" border="0" alt="Creative Job Destructi&#111;n" title="Creative Job Destructi&#111;n" />		</div>		</div><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Slartibartfast - May 17 2012 at 11:30</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 10:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :  Originally posted by SlartibartfastPresidents...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4511272#4511272</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=18069" rel="nofollow">manofmystery</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 17 2012 at 08:26<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Slartibartfast</strong></em><br /><br />Presidents aren't gods and elections have consequences even if there isn't enough difference between the two candidates.&nbsp; The notion that the left is as radicalized as the right these days is utter nonsense.</td></tr></table>&nbsp; <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Your clinging to the left vs right game is nonsense (which has been explained to you many time over several threads).&nbsp; It's the type of thinking you exhibit that allows both parties to steal more and more power to control our lives.&nbsp; At the end of the day you are no different than someone mindlessly pulling the republican lever every election cycle.&nbsp; You're both helping government grow, driving the country into bankruptcy, giving&nbsp;a thumbs up to neverending wars, including the drug war which has only gotten more and more wasteful and ridiculous in the last 4 years.&nbsp; If you use your classic left vs. right logic then you'll be&nbsp;voting for the re-election of&nbsp;the one of the most right-wing presidents in our history, as far as foreign policy, domestic "security", and&nbsp;"criminal justice" are concerned.&nbsp; Sorry, I forgot, warfare and an utter lack of respect for civil liberties are only "right wing"&nbsp;ideals when the president is a republican.</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 08:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :   Originally posted by SlartibartfastThe...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4511246#4511246</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=17732" rel="nofollow">RoyFairbank</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 17 2012 at 07:50<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Slartibartfast</strong></em><br /><br />The notion that the left is as radicalized as the right these days is utter nonsense.</td></tr></table><br><br>They are radicalized to the right.<br><br>1930s | New Deal<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;1960s | Great Society<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;1990s | Third Way<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;2010s | Obama Trauma <br><br>Reference<br><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;1930s Republicans<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;1960s Republicans<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;1980s Republicans<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;2010s Tea Partly Insane<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 07:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : Presidents aren&amp;#039;t gods and...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4511213#4511213</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8161" rel="nofollow">Slartibartfast</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 17 2012 at 07:01<br /><br />Presidents aren't gods and elections have consequences even if there isn't enough difference between the two candidates.&nbsp; The notion that the left is as radicalized as the right these days is utter nonsense.]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 07:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : - Women can use any reproductive...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4511091#4511091</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=18069" rel="nofollow">manofmystery</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 16 2012 at 22:01<br /><br /><DIV>- Women can use any reproductive product on the shelf but they have no right to use taxpayer money to get it.&nbsp;&nbsp;Not forcing everyone else to pay for your sh*t shouldn't be a partisan issue.&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>- It's amazing as it is pathetic to see democrats rallying around the assassination of an unarmed man as the rational for Obama's re-election after spending so long calling W a bloodthirsty monster (which I'd agree with).&nbsp; Romney would likely have made the same call&nbsp;and either way&nbsp;it's not a presidental accomplishment as he just&nbsp;sits and watches on tv from thousands of miles away.</DIV><DIV>- The auto industry is still a joke and will never pay taxpayers back the money W&nbsp;stole for them and Obama stole for their union leaders.&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>- Obama is owned by Wall Street, who love regulation, by the way (because both parties let them write it).</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 22:01:40 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :   Originally posted by Slart...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4511059#4511059</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=17614" rel="nofollow">Epignosis</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 16 2012 at 20:42<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Slartibartfast</strong></em><br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by stonebeard</strong></em><br /><br />I tried "making a statement" last election with Barr. .</td></tr></table>Who Rosanne? <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif" border="0" alt="T&#111;ngue" title="T&#111;ngue" /><br><br><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Epignosis</strong></em><br /><br /><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Obama - reproductive freedom - aid for the poor - killing Osama - saving the auto industry - all regulation on Wall Street = Romney</font></font></td></tr></table>&nbsp;fixed <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><br><br><big style="font-weight: bold;"></big><br></td></tr></table><br><br><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Women have reproductive freedom.&nbsp; The question is, who pays for the condoms and pills, Obama or us?<br>Osama bin Laden was killed.&nbsp; The question is, who paid for it, Obama or us?<br>The auto industry was "saved."&nbsp; Who paid for it, Obama or us?<br>Businesses are regulated.&nbsp; Who pays for that, Obama or us?<br><br>Are you an atheist?&nbsp; I think you believe that Presidents are gods.<br><br></font></font>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 20:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : This thing about Romney as a bully...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4511055#4511055</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=17732" rel="nofollow">RoyFairbank</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 16 2012 at 20:35<br /><br />This thing about Romney as a bully in the 60s is making me facepalm. This is like Clinton smoking weed. What a load of bullsh*t. You wouldn't hold any of that stuff against your doctor or even pastor, much less politician, where everything is about opportunism. <br><br>They are trying to distract from even slightly real issues. IMO the gay marriage thing is a huge distraction as well. What about the economy, the wars (present and future)....? Most of what they have said about the economy are like rhetorical bandages and large doses of austerity and cuts. The main difference is Obama just lies (he rails against abstract bankers and heads to meet with real bankers at wall street fundraisers on the same day!) or brings up stuff like Gay Marriage, while Romney doesn't bother saying anything at all. <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 20:35:09 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :    Originally posted by EpignosisObama...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=17732" rel="nofollow">RoyFairbank</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 15 2012 at 12:02<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Epignosis</strong></em><br /><br /><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Obama = Romney</font></font></td></tr></table><br><br><img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif" border="0" alt="Thumbs Up" title="Thumbs Up" /><br><br>The question is will this open up movement to the left &amp; right of the establishment? <br><br>So far, all leftward and rightward motion flows back into the two parties, like the Tea Party and Occupy. <br><br>I guess it depends on there being alternative options that seem credible to people. Too bad, because there aren't any right now. <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley18.gif" border="0" alt="Ouch" title="Ouch" /><br><br><br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by RoyFairbank - May 15 2012 at 12:03</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 12:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :        Originally posted...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8161" rel="nofollow">Slartibartfast</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 15 2012 at 10:24<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by stonebeard</strong></em><br /><br />I tried "making a statement" last election with Barr. .</td></tr></table>Who Rosanne? <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif" border="0" alt="T&#111;ngue" title="T&#111;ngue" /><br><br><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Epignosis</strong></em><br /><br /><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Obama - reproductive freedom - aid for the poor - killing Osama - saving the auto industry - all regulation on Wall Street = Romney</font></font></td></tr></table>&nbsp;fixed <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><br><br><big style="font-weight: bold;"><img src="http://www.bartcop.com/romney-diff-now-zz.jpg" border="0" /></big><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Slartibartfast - May 15 2012 at 10:29</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 10:24:38 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : If I was in the States, it would&amp;#039;ve...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=29951" rel="nofollow">frippism</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 15 2012 at 09:44<br /><br />If I was in the States, it would've been Obama. As an Israeli, there's a definite side of me that would prefer Romney and his more pro-Israel views (though Obama isn't anti-Israel, really). Even though Romney's side might be a bit too one-sided in order to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.......&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>In the end, they both aren't perfect. I also believe a more social-democratic approach would be better for the U.S. at this time. So I guess Obama.</div><div><br></div><div>Boop.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 09:44:09 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : I tried &amp;#034;making a statement&amp;#034;...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4509536#4509536</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2461" rel="nofollow">stonebeard</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 14 2012 at 23:35<br /><br />I tried "making a statement" last election with Barr. Didn't do a lot of good. There's really no point in voting in this election. The last thing I want to do is give Obama that bullsh*t "mandate" to continue the status quo, but I really can't bear to vote for Romney. I might just vote for Bama because the GOP has some serious sh*t it needs to sort out, socially, before becoming an acceptable party to have any power, IMO.]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2012 23:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : Obama = Romney   </title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=17614" rel="nofollow">Epignosis</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 14 2012 at 21:39<br /><br /><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Obama = Romney</font></font>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2012 21:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :   Originally posted by RoyFairbankits...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7442" rel="nofollow">zappaholic</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 14 2012 at 21:26<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by RoyFairbank</strong></em><br /><br />its going to be really boring to watch Obama landslide Romney.<br></td></tr></table><br><br>The aftermath will be anything but boring.&nbsp; I am convinced that no matter who wins, by November 7th DC will be burning.<br><br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2012 21:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : I hope Ron Paul runs independent.......</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=17732" rel="nofollow">RoyFairbank</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 14 2012 at 20:12<br /><br />I hope Ron Paul runs independent.... I don't think he will, but its going to be really boring to watch Obama landslide Romney. I'd rather have some issues raised by the media refusing to allow Paul to participate.<br><br><br>I think its unhealthy for people to be in thrall of the Red Blue religion. Any momentary relief is welcomed. <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2012 20:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :    Originally posted by aginor  Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=47" rel="nofollow">lucas</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 06 2012 at 12:29<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by aginor</strong></em><br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by lucas</strong></em><br /><br />Tomorrow I vote for the second round of elections in France. I hope the "so-called" socialist will not win...</td></tr></table>good luck on the election (also how fares Eva Joly, im curious since she is from where i am from, also she is a green alternative ) <br></td></tr></table><div>She got 2 % of votes at the first round of elections. She is on the 7th place (out of ten).</div><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by lucas - May 06 2012 at 12:30</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2012 12:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :      Originally posted by...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=17732" rel="nofollow">RoyFairbank</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 05 2012 at 21:31<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by The T</strong></em><br /><br />Futuristic as in impossible. Rather convoluted wordy explanation but I guess that will have to do.</td></tr></table><br><br>From the perspective of the times Marx was writing in, the future is already here. Production has been socialized, globalized. We are essentially moving into socialism but being yanked back by the capitalist mode of appropriation and allocation. Trotsky talked of times that were past ripe for socialism, but had become rotten. The tend to retract as nationalist and private accumulation is out of sync with socialized, globalized production. Hence the great depression, then the decades of expansion again toward American efficiency of production throughout the world (US becomes savoir of capitalism), then the outer reaches of this expansion, loss of hegemony by United States (first collapse of Bretton Woods) the rottenness again, finally, the cord loses slack and tightens suddenly and yanks back the out of sync demands of allocation by private and national accumulators. <br><br>Rather than impossible, it is too possible, so capitalism is destroying its own pregnant development (the billions wiped in GDP being the indication on one hand, national divisions expressing quite a bit more). It does this periodically, but there is a reason why it does it on this scale and namely in this particular fashion in 1929 and in 2008. This is capitalism eating itself, not just having a snack. The conditions for socialism are overripe, they are being destroyed, and capitalism maybe can reduce itself to a position where it can expand again, for a while. But history does not repeat itself. It has little basis for expansion today. <br><br><br><span style="font-size:10px">Edited by KarlMarx - <strong>Today</strong> at 21:38</span><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by RoyFairbank - May 05 2012 at 21:37</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2012 21:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : Futuristic as in impossible. Rather...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10657" rel="nofollow">The T</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 05 2012 at 17:25<br /><br />Futuristic as in impossible. Rather convoluted wordy explanation but I guess that will have to do. ]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2012 17:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :   Originally posted by The TSo...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=17732" rel="nofollow">RoyFairbank</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 05 2012 at 15:13<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by The T</strong></em><br /><br />So you have explained what socialism apparently is not, but you have failed to explain what it actually is. Elaboration please?</td></tr></table><br><br>I think I explained it pretty well... it is about direct consumer preference... to use a political term, allocation is decided using democratic methods. <br><br>It cannot work or even exist in a centralized or a market based economy. That's the whole point. That is why Marx talked of the withering away of the state. It's functions are irrelevant. Talk of socialism in either of the two aforementioned cases is misguided, but understandable. Many self-described socialists were advocates of different types of Keynesian intervention in the context of a market economy. If one pays close attention the different socialists will acknowledge themselves as non-socialists and advocates of a opposing type of economics through various key phrases and concepts, such as Social Democrat, which means reform of capitalism, non-orthodox, revisionist, socialism in one country, market socialist.... This terminology is decisive but it is difficult for the uninitiated to differentiate.&nbsp; <br><br>Once again, they are working from a different concept. Moreover, they usually don't directly pursue this concept, instead they are supporters of a certain faction or trend in capitalist politics and economics, or supporters of third world national consolidation (earlier times). They use the term socialist to indicate that there are trends in capitalism or national centralization that are viable. The historical reason is that these groups arose out of the decline of the workers movement in different decades, and considered themselves heirs, adjusting themselves to new conditions.<br><br>This creates confusion, which is exploited to create the myth that socialism is simply Keynesian intervention, or even the political support of it. According to Marx, socialism can only be realized by concerted establishment on a world scale, an economic revolution that is established and then realized. There is no such thing as a Socialist policy, or a socialist institution. Socialism is an economic stage which is entirely distinct and closed. It is the lower stage of communism, which is based on a highly evolved and automatic economy with few limits in productivity or operation. Both are future economies, but communism is a state of the very distant future. <br><br>&nbsp;<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2012 15:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :   Originally posted by lucas  Tomorrow...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=18909" rel="nofollow">aginor</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 05 2012 at 14:39<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by lucas</strong></em><br /><br />Tomorrow I vote for the second round of elections in France. I hope the "so-called" socialist will not win...</td></tr></table>good luck on the election (also how fares Eva Joly, im curious since she is from where i am from, also she is a green alternative ) <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2012 14:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :   Tomorrow I vote for the second...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=47" rel="nofollow">lucas</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 05 2012 at 14:12<br /><br />Tomorrow I vote for the second round of elections in France. I hope the "so-called" socialist will not win...]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2012 14:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : i will refuse to vote   </title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=18909" rel="nofollow">aginor</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 05 2012 at 13:58<br /><br />i will refuse to vote&nbsp;<img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley8.gif" border="0" alt="Clown" title="Clown" />]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2012 13:58:04 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :  Originally posted by RoyFairbank  Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10657" rel="nofollow">The T</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 05 2012 at 13:53<br /><br /> <table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by RoyFairbank</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by manofmystery</strong></em><br /><br />^ &lt;span =message=""&gt;&lt;span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: EN; mso-fareast-: EN-US; mso-bidi-: AR-SA" lang="EN"&gt;“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all.” - Frédéric Bastiat&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</td></tr></table>Not to get involved in anything, but to be serious for a moment....That remark really misses the point of what socialism is....Socialism is not about big government vs. small government. Maybe people should call that Keynesian capitalist economics or national capitalism. Socialism doesn't really deal with the issue of intervention into the market. That is a mistaken impression due to labeling of Keynesian and national capitalists. Also of misconception of other economic system wrongly labeled socialist, but based on national centralization.Socialism does not involve government intervention in its economic system or social system. It is based on supply and demand by consumer preference. Social spending is determined by consumer demand as well. Consumer allocation instead of producer allocation.</td></tr></table> So you have explained what socialism apparently is not, but you have failed to explain what it actually is. Elaboration please?]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2012 13:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : I&amp;#039;m not voting Democrat OR...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=35257" rel="nofollow">dtguitarfan</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 05 2012 at 12:35<br /><br />I'm not voting Democrat OR Republican OR Independent - I consider myself a political moderate and I vote based on who I agree with most.&nbsp; I think the party system hurts more than it helps - it distracts too much from the issues.&nbsp; I think they should hand out surveys with questions, and based on the answers your vote goes to the person who represents your views best. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" alt="LOL" title="LOL" />&nbsp; I'm not completely serious about that, of course...but it's amazing how little people know about the people they vote for...]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2012 12:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :   Originally posted by RoyFairbank  Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=12908" rel="nofollow">Proletariat</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 05 2012 at 12:22<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by RoyFairbank</strong></em><br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by manofmystery</strong></em><br /><br />^ <span><span style='font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN; mso-fareast-: EN-US; mso-bidi-: AR-SA;' lang="EN">“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all.” - Frédéric Bastiat</span></span></td></tr></table><br><br>Not to get involved in anything, but to be serious for a moment....<br><br>That remark really misses the point of what socialism is....<br><br>Socialism is not about big government vs. small government. <br><br>Maybe people should call that Keynesian capitalist economics or national capitalism. Socialism doesn't really deal with the issue of intervention into the market. That is a mistaken impression due to labeling of Keynesian and national capitalists. Also of misconception of other economic system wrongly labeled socialist, but based on national centralization.<br><br>Socialism does not involve government intervention in its economic system or social system. It is based on supply and demand by consumer preference. Social spending is determined by consumer demand as well. Consumer allocation instead of producer allocation. <br></td></tr></table><div>There are many many forms of socialism... Marxism and Lenninism included, however personally I would prefer earlyer socialistic ideas. people like&nbsp;Saint-Simon and Owen had some decent enough theories that are far removed from communism often these older socialist theories bear striking resemblence to certain forms of anarchism and libertarianism.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2012 12:22:46 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :   want a better future? want...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=12908" rel="nofollow">Proletariat</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 05 2012 at 12:18<br /><br />want a better future? want to implement&nbsp;euro-socialist practices? or perhaps you want expansion of the free market? do you want a gold standard?<div>&nbsp;</div><div>whatever you want step one is breaking this over sized and unwieldy nation into 50 smaller reasonably sized chunks.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I support anti-federalism!</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2012 12:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :   Originally posted by manofmystery^...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=17732" rel="nofollow">RoyFairbank</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 05 2012 at 11:36<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by manofmystery</strong></em><br /><br />^ <span =message=""><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: EN; mso-fareast-: EN-US; mso-bidi-: AR-SA" lang="EN">“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all.” - Frédéric Bastiat</span></span></td></tr></table><br><br>Not to get involved in anything, but to be serious for a moment....<br><br>That remark really misses the point of what socialism is....<br><br>Socialism is not about big government vs. small government. <br><br>Maybe people should call that Keynesian capitalist economics or national capitalism. Socialism doesn't really deal with the issue of intervention into the market. That is a mistaken impression due to labeling of Keynesian and national capitalists. Also of misconception of other economic system wrongly labeled socialist, but based on national centralization.<br><br>Socialism does not involve government intervention in its economic system or social system. It is based on supply and demand by consumer preference. Social spending is determined by consumer demand as well. Consumer allocation instead of producer allocation. <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2012 11:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : ^ &#8220;Socialism, like the ancient...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4502193#4502193</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=18069" rel="nofollow">manofmystery</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 05 2012 at 05:33<br /><br />^ <SPAN =message><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: EN; mso-fareast-: EN-US; mso-bidi-: AR-SA" lang=EN>“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all.” - Frédéric Bastiat</SPAN></SPAN>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2012 05:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :     Originally posted by SlartibartfastThis...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=17614" rel="nofollow">Epignosis</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 20:32<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Slartibartfast</strong></em><br /><br /><br>This whole more or less government is vague.&nbsp; What is more?&nbsp; What is less?&nbsp; <br><br>You want less protection from polluters?&nbsp; <a href="http://www.js&#111;nline.com/watchdog/38260974.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><b>Government sucks at that.</b></a><br><br>Less inspections of food?&nbsp; <a href="http://www.huffingt&#111;npost.com/kerry-trueman/fdafailure-to-do-anything_b_162620.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><b>Government sucks at that.</b></a><br><br><br>Less firefighters, police?&nbsp; <a href="http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/05/uc-san-diego-student-dea-jail-outrage.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><b>Government sucks at that.</b></a><br><br><br>Less protection from predatory companies?&nbsp; <a href="http://www.thefreeman&#111;nline.org/columns/predatory-pricing-laws-hazardous-to-c&#111;nsumers-health/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><b>Government sucks at that.</b></a><br><br>But yes, call me social democrat, liberal, progressive.&nbsp; The reality is that just because you can't have a perfect government doesn't mean you shouldn't stand for things that will make it better.<br></td></tr></table><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><br><br></font></font><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Epignosis - May 04 2012 at 20:32</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 20:32:34 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :   Originally posted by JJLehto What...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8161" rel="nofollow">Slartibartfast</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 20:23<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by JJLehto</strong></em><br /><br />What I mean is, unless I'm wrong, you seem to very opposed to less government and supportive of more. <br>That more... is the means. <br><br>You also seem to be in the Social Democracy mold (Sanders, Kucinich) aka Sweden. (that's why I said that) <br>It will not happen here. Even if somehow those guys got their way, we're in such a bad situation. A large, efficient, open and corrupt free government will not happen here, we're too corrupt and set in our mindset. <br>I love their system, but besides the fact it's become unsustainable it simply will not happen here. So if that's what you'd like (as I did) you need to simply face reality. <br><br>If you are sincere in wanting better government and don't care the size, then we need less. I've been reading and researching for months now, so there's just so much info...but long story short, less is the best government to have. <br><br><br>Thank you for telling me unemployment is bad, I was unaware...<br>They will find new jobs. We all do (while supporting theirs) so they will find jobs. <br></td></tr></table><br>This whole more or less government is vague.&nbsp; What is more?&nbsp; What is less?&nbsp; You want less protection from polluters?&nbsp; Less inspections of food?&nbsp; Less firefighters, police?&nbsp; Less protection from predatory companies?<br><br>But yes, call me social democrat, liberal, progressive.&nbsp; The reality is that just because you can't have a perfect government doesn't mean you shouldn't stand for things that will make it better.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 20:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : Rah rah DemocratsRah rah RepublicansA...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=17614" rel="nofollow">Epignosis</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 20:22<br /><br /><i><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Rah rah Democrats<br>Rah rah Republicans</font></font></i><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><br><br>A line from my album, <i>Refulgence</i>: <br><br>"Our Constitution has grown weak like a field of dying grass.&nbsp; The eagle's trampled underfoot by elephant and ass."<br></font></font>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 20:22:32 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :    Originally posted by manofmystery Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8161" rel="nofollow">Slartibartfast</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 20:15<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by manofmystery</strong></em><br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Slartibartfast</strong></em><br /><br /><br>As much as you want to pretend there isn't there is.&nbsp; One advocates policies that would turn back the clock to where even contraceptives would be outlawed.&nbsp; <strong>Believe you're thinking of Santorum but I wouldn't put it past the Mittster to say that in a room full of religious-righters.&nbsp; <font color="#FF0000">Yeah, I'm pretty sure he hasn't meant what he's been saying.</font><br><br></strong>One advocates for economic policies that aren't about enriching the already wealthy at the expense of those of us who are struggling to make a living...<div><strong>Seriously?&nbsp; What do you call a bailout?&nbsp; Obama has done nothing but hand tax dollars to his buddies.</strong>&nbsp; <font color="#FF0000"><b>What do I call a bailout?</b></font>&nbsp; <font color="#FF0000"><b>Depends on the bailees.&nbsp; The one's who actually resulted in companies that produce things not going under and that means jobs.<br></b></font><br>What really amuses me that is that the party that has set out to make Obama's presidency a failure from day one automatically takes knee jerk opposition to any thing this administration does even when it's things they previously supported.&nbsp; <strong>Yes, the republicans really did him in back when Obama had a supermajority in congress.&nbsp; You'll have to blame your fellow dems for anything that didn't get done in the frist 2 years.&nbsp; The automatic opposition is built into the deception, by the way.&nbsp; Follow actions, not words.&nbsp; <font color="#FF0000">Obama and the Democrats totally squandered the beginning of his term by being too timid and opened themselves up losing the House by doing so.<br></font><br></strong>I hear a lot of people practicing willful ignorance and historical amnesia.&nbsp;&nbsp;<strong>Seems like this describes damn near every political post you've ever made&nbsp;here.&nbsp; <font color="#FF0000">No, that actually describes damn near every political post you've made here.&nbsp;</font></strong><font color="#FF0000"> </font>If Romney wins it will be because we truly are the United States of Amnesia.&nbsp; <strong>He won't and even if does nothing will change, you'll just go back to bitching about policies you hated from Bush and accepted from Obama.&nbsp; <font color="#FF0000">Not true, it does make a difference, there is a lot of overlap between the parties, and I have every confidence that Republicans in their current form will make things even worse for the average person if they get any more power.</font></strong></td></tr></table> </div></td></tr></table><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Slartibartfast - May 04 2012 at 20:15</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 20:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :  What I mean is, unless I&amp;#039;m...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7686" rel="nofollow">JJLehto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 20:07<br /><br />What I mean is, unless I'm wrong, you seem to very opposed to less government and supportive of more. <br>That more... is the means. <br><br>You also seem to be in the Social Democracy mold (Sanders, Kucinich) aka Sweden. (that's why I said that) <br>It will not happen here. Even if somehow those guys got their way, we're in such a bad situation. A large, efficient, open and corrupt free government will not happen here, we're too corrupt and set in our mindset. <br>I love their system, but besides the fact it's become unsustainable it simply will not happen here. So if that's what you'd like (as I did) you need to simply face reality. <br><br>If you are sincere in wanting better government and don't care the size, then we need less. I've been reading and researching for months now, so there's just so much info...but long story short, less is the best government to have. <br><br><br>Thank you for telling me unemployment is bad, I was unaware...<br>They will find new jobs. We all do (while supporting theirs) so they will find jobs. <br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by JJLehto - May 04 2012 at 20:09</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 20:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :   Originally posted by JJLehto  Ah...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4502017#4502017</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8161" rel="nofollow">Slartibartfast</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 19:58<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by JJLehto</strong></em><br /><br /><br><br>Ah the problem is most people would agree, your means are wrong though...because they have failed. <br>The more government interferes <i>the more people can petition the government to benefit themselves</i>. <br>I agree, big business and the wealthy are more powerful than us...so why would you want to give them the ability to influence themselves even more???<br><br>Or do you want more government as long as it's <i>better </i>government? <br>I used to bark up that tree. It just will not happen. <br><br>Sweden will not and cannot happen here. I mean it's just a cold reality. <br></td></tr></table><br>I want better government and don't give a rat's ass what "size" it is.&nbsp; What do you think happens when you cut government jobs?&nbsp; You get unemployed people.&nbsp; This results in a multiplier bad effect in the economy.&nbsp; People without jobs can't afford to buy as many things.&nbsp; People don't buy enough things and then the people who make things lose jobs...<br><br>And you're really going to have to clarify what means of mine that are wrong and have failed that you are referring to.&nbsp; The next two statements make no sense either.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 19:58:41 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :    Originally posted by zappaholic But...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4502011#4502011</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7686" rel="nofollow">JJLehto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 19:48<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by zappaholic</strong></em><br /><br /><br><br>But I keep hearing about how 0bama's going to turn America into the most brutal Communist dictatorship the world has ever seen, plus he's going to confiscate all of our guns, convert us all to Islam AND Atheism, make abortion and gay marriage mandatory, and imprison all dissidents in FEMA camps.<br><br><br><br><br></td></tr></table><br><br>Yeah, he is. <br>...what isn't that he ran on? <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" border="0" alt="C&#111;nfused" title="C&#111;nfused" /><br><br>Don't tell me I <i>didn't </i>vote for a commie terrorist in 2008<img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif" border="0" alt="Cry" title="Cry" /><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by JJLehto - May 04 2012 at 19:49</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 19:48:51 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :    Originally posted by Slartibartfast    Ah...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4502010#4502010</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7686" rel="nofollow">JJLehto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 19:46<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Slartibartfast</strong></em><br /><br /><img src="https://bobbiblogger.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/99.jpg" border="0" /><br></td></tr></table><br><br>Ah the problem is most people would agree, your means are wrong though...because they have failed. <br>The more government interferes <i>the more people can petition the government to benefit themselves</i>. <br>I agree, big business and the wealthy are more powerful than us...so why would you want to give them the ability to influence themselves even more???<br><br>Or do you want more government as long as it's <i>better </i>government? <br>I used to bark up that tree. It just will not happen. <br><br>Sweden will not and cannot happen here. I mean it's just a cold reality. <br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by JJLehto - May 04 2012 at 19:50</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 19:46:47 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :     Originally posted by Slartibartfast    We...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4502006#4502006</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=17732" rel="nofollow">RoyFairbank</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 19:32<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Slartibartfast</strong></em><br /><br /><img src="https://bobbiblogger.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/99.jpg" border="0" /><br></td></tr></table><br><br><ul><li><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3">We are not against an insane system, just its insanities.</font></li></ul><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by RoyFairbank - May 04 2012 at 19:33</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 19:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :      </title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8161" rel="nofollow">Slartibartfast</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 19:31<br /><br /><img src="https://bobbiblogger.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/99.jpg" border="0" /><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 19:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :   Originally posted by manofmystery  As...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4501998#4501998</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7442" rel="nofollow">zappaholic</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 19:08<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by manofmystery</strong></em><br /><br /><img src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hb1fPt5droA/TyMMGS1SO3I/AAAAAAAABeA/a59N_qi-32M/s1600/image-721151.jpeg" height="480" width="334" border="0" /><div></div><div></div>As much as Slarti wants to pretend there's a difference between them, there isn't.&nbsp; Obama has just been a continuation of W and Romney would be more of the same.</td></tr></table><br><br>But I keep hearing about how 0bama's going to turn America into the most brutal Communist dictatorship the world has ever seen, plus he's going to confiscate all of our guns, convert us all to Islam AND Atheism, make abortion and gay marriage mandatory, and imprison all dissidents in FEMA camps.<br><br><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/uglyweirdguy/wasteland.jpg" height="387" width="600" border="0" /><br><br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 19:08:33 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :  Originally posted by Slartibartfast Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4501990#4501990</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=18069" rel="nofollow">manofmystery</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 18:54<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Slartibartfast</strong></em><br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by manofmystery</strong></em><br /><br /><img src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hb1fPt5droA/TyMMGS1SO3I/AAAAAAAABeA/a59N_qi-32M/s1600/image-721151.jpeg" height="480" width="334" border="0" /> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>As much as Slarti wants to pretend there's a difference between them, there isn't.&nbsp; Obama has just been a continuation of W and Romney would be more of the same.</td></tr></table><BR>As much as you want to pretend there isn't there is.&nbsp; One advocates policies that would turn back the clock to where even contraceptives would be outlawed.&nbsp; <strong>Believe you're thinking of Santorum but I wouldn't put it past the Mittster to say that in a room full of religious-righters.&nbsp; </strong>One advocates for economic policies that aren't about enriching the already wealthy at the expense of those of us who are struggling to make a living...<DIV><strong>Seriously?&nbsp; What do you call a bailout?&nbsp; Obama has done nothing but hand tax dollars to his buddies.</strong><BR><BR>What really amuses me that is that the party that has set out to make Obama's presidency a failure from day one automatically takes knee jerk opposition to any thing this administration does even when it's things they previously supported.&nbsp; <strong>Yes, the republicans really did him in back when Obama had a supermajority in congress.&nbsp; You'll have to blame your fellow dems for anything that didn't get done in the frist 2 years.&nbsp; The automatic opposition is built into the deception, by the way.&nbsp; Follow actions, not words.&nbsp; </strong>The Republicans have been very and consistently guilty of putting party ahead of country.&nbsp; <strong>A statement that can just as accurately be made about the Democrats.&nbsp; </strong>They hate it whenever good economic news comes out.&nbsp; <strong>I personally hate it when data is manipulated and put out as good economic news, by either party.&nbsp; Both parties believe in keynesian economics and corporatism and neither of which will lead&nbsp;to anything but boom and bust cycles.&nbsp;&nbsp;If either party wanted to get out of the way of the economy maybe you'd have a case, but neither does. &nbsp;</strong>They don't want Obama to make a point of how he actually was instrumental at directing the take down of Obama when Bush said he wasn't interested in doing it and Romney was going around before it happened saying that we shouldn't be spending all this money going after one man. <strong>Obama has taken down Obama <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" height="17" width="17" border="0" alt="LOL" title="LOL" />&nbsp;but not enough for Romney to win.&nbsp; But yes, Obama has been just as bloodthirsty as Bush (maybe moreso).&nbsp; More overseas wars,&nbsp;more aggressive drug war, more gitmo, and now assassinating the unarmed or, in the case of Al Alawi's son and nephew, the innoccent.&nbsp; &nbsp;Add to all that declaring the world a warzone and, through executive order, claiming the power to seize land, reasources, and even citizens in wartime or peacetime and you are left with Bush on steroids.&nbsp; It seems like your opposition is what's inconsistent because I doubt you'd be glossing this stuff over for a republican.</strong><BR><BR>I hear a lot of people practicing willful ignorance and historical amnesia.&nbsp;&nbsp;<strong>Seems like this describes damn near every political post you've ever made&nbsp;here. </strong>&nbsp;If Romney wins it will be because we truly are the United States of Amnesia.&nbsp; <strong>He won't and even if does nothing will change, you'll just go back to bitching about policies you hated from Bush and accepted from Obama.</strong></td></tr></table> </DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 18:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :    Originally posted by Slartibartfast  A...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4501988#4501988</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7686" rel="nofollow">JJLehto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 18:45<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Slartibartfast</strong></em><br /><br /><img src="http://www.bartcop.com/romney-fast-food-manager.jpg" border="0" /></td></tr></table><br><br><img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" alt="LOL" title="LOL" /><br><br>A bit skewed though...I do think one problem with liberals (erm Democrats) is they get <i>sooo </i>focused on bashing the wealthy (which I'm not opposed to at all) they tend to view EVERYTHING as us vs them, 1% vs 99% haves and haves not. <br><br>I mean, it's not "you sit back and enjoy inherited millions" or "flip burgers"<br>Both my parents are first gen Americans, their parents had little to no education, worked crap jobs, had no savings. <br>In the 30ish years they've been working they made quite a good climb up the ladder, mainly through hard work. <br>Maybe that's why things have failed so much, that general attitude has been lost<img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif" border="0" alt="Cry" title="Cry" /><br><br>I know (hope) that poster is a joke, but by thinking like that all the time it will warp your outlook. I fear you may actually think this way and not wanting what's right and fair, which is what liberalism should be about<img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley24.gif" border="0" alt="Ermm" title="Ermm" /><br><br><br><br><br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by JJLehto - May 04 2012 at 18:46</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 18:45:40 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) : Smurph they all do want bigger...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4501985#4501985</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7686" rel="nofollow">JJLehto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 18:39<br /><br />Smurph they all do want bigger government, but remember parties are not just bullsh*t but so are terms. <br>You say there's no true conservatives left, but how far back do you wanna go? <br><br>Conservatives were originally "the power". The kings and aristocracy. <br>Liberals were the ones that argued for limited government. <br>A lot of these "far right" nutjobs often claim they are "classic liberals" <br><br>It seems today that the terms mean as little as the parties. It's why I like "libertarian" neither liberal or conservative :D<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 18:39:17 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :    </title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4501984#4501984</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8161" rel="nofollow">Slartibartfast</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 18:39<br /><br /><img src="http://www.bartcop.com/romney-fast-food-manager.jpg" border="0" />]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 18:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Election 2012 (USA) :   Originally posted by The T^You&amp;#039;re...</title>
   <link>http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86635&amp;PID=4501944#4501944</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=17732" rel="nofollow">RoyFairbank</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 86635<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> May 04 2012 at 17:27<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by The T</strong></em><br /><br />^You're as much narrow minded as you think you are open minded Roy...</td></tr></table><br><br>I was just teasin' <br><br>Maybe I went too far (again) &#091;in the real world I really did go too far on the same day (go figure).... <img src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" border="0" alt="C&#111;nfused" title="C&#111;nfused" />, luckily the other shoe hasn't dropped on my head yet&#093;<br><br>I'll vandalize my comment into its opposite<br><br><br>-------<br><br>It seems we all have different opinions about how the two parties are both the same. <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 17:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
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