If I still had admin rights, I'd put a lock on it right now.

Ivan,

I apologize for calling you a zealot.  My original frustration with the Invisible Touch conversation was the lack of respect for those that like the CD but I should not have resorted to name calling or even anything remotely along those lines.  Please accept my sincere apology.

Tom

 

Hopefully someone out there can see the distinction without getting their panties in a wad.

It isn't a personal attack. Maybe I should have said perhaps rather than I guess. But I'm just stating a possibilty that your posting style maybe the reason. And I didn't call you a zealot, but as it has been said by another it seems to me not uneasonable. Perhaps we are both zealots.

If you take this as an attack I can only repeat it wasn't.

I often defend Love Beach btw but it isn't as easily defendable. I like it because I like ELP. Thats it really

For God's sake

I simply disagreed with your comment...Is that so hard to understand?

I believe anybody can bash the album they want, as long they don't insult calling it trash or crap, but how many times has Love Beach been bashed and nobody says a word?.

Iván

BTW: I read your personal attacks in your thread, but i didn't made anything, as a fact I let you say whatever you wanted and never wrote in your thread, despite I believe i have a valuable opinion in that issue, being one of the members who has stayed in a team longer.

I'm trying to avoid problems, but when they follow me, i respond.

I accept your apology and hope this issue ends her, send whatever bands you feel to Symphonic, they will be evaluated by the team,  

Ivan, my dear fellow, you always seem to want the last word, but not this time. I have pasted above your initial response to my post, which Ian, rightly, followed up with a post correctly saying that I did not call YOU intellectually lazy.

It is perfectly okay to hate this album. I am getting there myself now after all this. You said above about calling names. I did not call you, or anyone else, names. I was making what I regard as being a perfectly valid point, generically, that I regard the attitudes regarding Collins era Genesis as being intellectually lazy, a comment I stand by utterly. This is NOT the same as calling somebody names.

I am utterly fed up with all of this, so let me make something very clear. You live in Peru. I live in Wales. We have never met, nor will we ever. Without sounding rude, and this is not meant to be rude, you are fairly well down on my list of personal priorities. So, let me make this clear. Unless I name you, my comments on this site are not directed at you.

I know you, Jim, and others will not believe this (and I have got to the stage where I barely care anymore), the Revolutionise the Site thread, initially, had nothing to do with you personally. I was expressing an opinion on how I believe we can improve things. I do accept that it turned personal, and for that, I can only apologise. You do not, however, help yourself sometimes. Neither do I, for that matter.

Enough. Please leave this as the last word. You have an apology, and an assurance. 

Never said your comments were on me (in this case) Lazland, i just voiced my opinion, but seems I'm not allowed to do that.

As anybody must have noticed, in the last year i have posted 10% of my usual number of posts, because I'm uncomfortable, and most of my posts are about team issues.

Today there's a great example how this is personal and from where personal attacks come from (not from you), this post

Is personal, it ends saying that i deserve whatever some people do and that I have to accept their attacks or remain mute, but seems only Finn and i noticed it.

If I had said that, surely there would be a scandal, but what is considered a sin when i do it, it's normal when others do it.

I'll just have to accept this, but won't keep silent.

Iván

PS: Thanks to Finn and a couple Collaborators who sent me their PM's, I know I'm not imagining things as some believe 

I have not had a go at Ivan. I repeat, my comments about Genesis and intellectually lazy had bugger all to do with him. Believe  me, if they were, I would be more than happy to say so.

Hang on a second, Tony. I have just sent a PM to Jim on similar lines. I have been accused of something which was rather unfair and most definitely wrong, and I have the right to say so. I was NOT having a go at anyone in particular, and I was accused of this.

I am getting rather bloody fed up with this. That is not acting like a child. If you want me to, then I will.

Am I not able to express my opinion on Genesis, the site, or anything else without being accused of being personal and nasty? I wouldn't mind so much if that is what I was doing. And, yes, whilst I have made personal remarks regarding my view of the site (although always anonymised), the comments made here about Genesis were absolutely, utterly, representing  my opinion about Prog Archives as a collective, not Ivan, or any other individual.

I am not a nasty person, and I am beginning to feel as if this is how you lot regard me.

Well, now I will make a pitch for the children's forum. Bollocks to the lot of you.

My comments about intellectually and artistically lazy bashing Genesis post Hackett were NOT aimed at Ivan, or indeed anyone else on a personal level. Okay? If I want to have a go at someone, I am more than capable of doing so, as you all know, and it has got me into more than a little bit of trouble lately. This was NOT a go.

This has always been my opinion about Genesis on this site. I have repeated it more than a few times. Indeed, I remember when I first joined the site, I made a similar comment, and received a very nice response from Raffaella, someone who I miss a great deal here.

The point that Tom made was a well made one. From my own experience, I can testify to it, and that is that many people latched onto the Gabriel era by listening to Collins era first.

The point I made was that we have a lot of Collins bashing here, and most of it is utterly without any intellectual credibility whatsoever. He "sold out". No he didn't. For a start, most of this era was a collaborative process, meaning that Banks and Rutherford were equally "culpable". Secondly, Genesis had a hit single with I Know What I Like on 1973, under Gabriel. Before that, they were massive in Italy and Belgium especially. They made hit records. They released singles. They wanted, and got, success. Good luck to them too.

Nobody is asking Ivan, or anyone else for that matter, to like Invisible Touch. I happen to rather enjoy it, not as much as Duke or Abacab, for example, but I still enjoy it. I do not expect others to. And this is not an accusation of zealotry, purity, or any other "ity". It is just my opinion, and it rattles me to see so many comments regarding this era, which I Love, without any other explanation that it is "pop", or a "sell out". As long as that opinion is expressed properly, what is wrong with that?

I repeat. My comments were not directed at any particular individual. It was a global statement expressing my personal opinion.

I was looking at Progressive Ears last night, for a few hours. Also, the DPRP site, which is wonderful. The way things are going here, I might well spend a lot more time there (and, yes, I do accept my personal responsibility in that).

Now I'm getting paranoid...

Thank you Finn

I started to think I was crazy and that nobody noticed that when I post, the same names appear always.

Iván

That's true

When i joined the site,. i had no respect for Neo prog.

But this has changed radically, some of my favorite Prog bands are precisely Neo, like Fish Marillion, Pendragon, Magenta, Gallahad, Collage...God, there's so much to find in Neo.

And if an artist doesn't like the label, bad luck, things are what they are, not we want them to be.

Iván

Thank you for letting me

It's my opinion and I stay behind it, i believe they sold.

It's what I believe..... Why can't I say it without being called names?

Iván

Well, I like most of PG albums, but i don't like any 3 men Genesis album...Is that so wrong?

Iván

PS: I was making a point and I made it...If you don't like a non Prog album, it's wrong, you're an arrogant, a snob...Even here in prog Archives

Well, I disagree, i know m,any people of your age, I taught them in the university, and miost of those who loved Invisible Touch, will never listen Prog.

And it's not hatred properly said, it's dislike, repulsion.

I'm sure that if anybody said that he hates Trilogy or Hybris, nobody will react so vehemently

As I said before, it's easier to express your hate for a Prog album than your dislike for a non Prog album even here in Prog Archives.

 

Ivan, 

I reject your ability to speak for my generation.

It is absolutely your right to hate the album, I don't dispute your hatred of it.  As a lawyer though, I would expect you to not simply discount eye witness accounts of an event or an era.  Seriously man, I'm not lying to you, it had an influence on people that are ten years younger.

With that being said, I'm done arguing the point.

Not necessarily.

Check Big Blue Ball

But fans are allowed to voice their opinions loud, at the end they are the ones who pay for the music.

Iván

But seems we are only allowed to whisper it.

Iván

That's what i said from the first moment

When have I not allowed anyone anything? What is wrong with you? Am I stopping you in some way?

For me it isn't a waste of talent.

I only ask to be allowed the same option

Then it must be a torture for you to be in a prog site where most people are Prog fans.

Sounds like masochism, I wouldn't join a Pop site, because I have very little in common with Pop fans.

It's funny, how it's an embarrassment  to be a Prog fan even in a Prog site created for Prog fans.

But it's your option.

Iván

For me is  a waste of talent