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nmccrina View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Moonchild: What is going on?
    Posted: July 21 2009 at 15:43
Hi all,
I am wondering how much of Moonchild (by KC, of course!) is "structured". By structured I mean possessing a consistent time signature that the musicians follow. Basically, I'm wondering if the musicians were sitting there counting "1...2...3...4" to themselves through the whole weird part, or if it was just like "I feel like playing a drum roll about now" or something.  Smile

Edit: The reason I'm asking is because I was just trying to record a live keyboard part into the computer, and after about 20 bars my timing would get off (I wasn't using a metronome or anything). So I was marveling at the skill needed for all the members of the band to keep synced up without a consistent drum beat or melody line to set the tempo. Unless of course, they didn't.


Edited by nmccrina - July 21 2009 at 15:55
lolwut?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2009 at 15:55

I dunno, really.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2009 at 16:00
Originally posted by Aragorn224 Aragorn224 wrote:

I dunno, really.

Great contribution, but at least you got a post in!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2009 at 16:38
Well, once you get to the middle its so improvised that you should really just be doing something in that vein, theres no way anybody is actually going to perform exactly that, including KC ever.  It's very different every time
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2009 at 16:59
You have to listen a live version perhaps




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2009 at 17:08

To my knowledge the whole middle section is free form improvisation.  No musical rules apply whatsoever.  What an amazing song though.

+OlLiE
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2009 at 19:03
Ok, here's how it works. For the live show, Peter Sinfield (Lyricist, producer, lights) did some sort of light show (which might have been improvised) and the band's improvisation was based on the lights. Like, for example, if the lights were to go from blue to red, someone in the band might play a bluesy sequence that ends in a dissonant chord. Stuff like that. Since it was the most entertaining part of the live show, King Crimson decided to put it on the disk. So yeah, I think it was more like  "I feel like playing a drum roll about now" than the band mambers actually counting measures.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2009 at 21:29
Thanks guys! It's fascinating stuff. I'm going to Youtube now to try and dig up a live video.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2009 at 21:37
The final nine minutes of "Moonchild" is a blight on an otherwise fine album.

Improvisation is one thing...doing something a horde of crippled six-year-old could do is quite another.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2009 at 21:38
That said, I remember when I posted my review, a thoughtful responder did have an intelligible way of looking at it...so there may be more to it.  If I can locate his thoughts, I will add them here.

Still- it doesn't make me eager to listen to it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2009 at 00:39
Originally posted by Nuke Nuke wrote:

Ok, here's how it works. For the live show, Peter Sinfield (Lyricist, producer, lights) did some sort of light show (which might have been improvised) and the band's improvisation was based on the lights. Like, for example, if the lights were to go from blue to red, someone in the band might play a bluesy sequence that ends in a dissonant chord. Stuff like that. Since it was the most entertaining part of the live show, King Crimson decided to put it on the disk. So yeah, I think it was more like  "I feel like playing a drum roll about now" than the band mambers actually counting measures.


Quite illuminating... Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2009 at 01:00

No they kept their timing in a very ingenious way. This is how they did it:

MacDonald kept his hand on the keyboards he was playing for the first while. After that he changed the tempo to 3 BPM so the band could easily keep time along. Greg Lake at the time got bored of the take since he was done singing, and started walking around in a syncopated pattern silently. Giles made a drum noise in an alternating pattern between a drum tap every 79 32nd notes and 42 septuplet 16th notes. Fripp then got up from his stool every time a measure started. And then Sinfield worked the lights of the studio, keeping time in an ingenious way by flipping the switch whenever the hell he felt like it.
 
GENIUS I SAY!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2009 at 04:14
The structure of Moonchild is: about 3 minutes of song followed by about 9 minutes waste of space on this historically important album. The latter part is the chief reason why I think that this album is a bit overrated.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2009 at 04:54
Originally posted by nmccrina nmccrina wrote:

Hi all,
I am wondering how much of Moonchild (by KC, of course!) is "structured". By structured I mean possessing a consistent time signature that the musicians follow. Basically, I'm wondering if the musicians were sitting there counting "1...2...3...4" to themselves through the whole weird part, or if it was just like "I feel like playing a drum roll about now" or something.  Smile

Edit: The reason I'm asking is because I was just trying to record a live keyboard part into the computer, and after about 20 bars my timing would get off (I wasn't using a metronome or anything). So I was marveling at the skill needed for all the members of the band to keep synced up without a consistent drum beat or melody line to set the tempo. Unless of course, they didn't.


Not sure if this is going to help you, but here's what Cert1fied has to say about 'Moonchild' in his review of ITCOCK:

 

Moon Child - one of the most remarkable pieces in rock music

Cue up the start of the piece. Ready?

Here we have drifts of mellotron, and a repeating picked guitar figure, which is soon joined by a short, repeating guitar figure that is important. Listen carefully to it's soaring tones - those opening notes are remarkably similar to "Au Clair de Lune" by Claude Debussy.

Greg picks up on this quickly with the vocal line - a two-part affair that picks up on this figure, appending an answering phrase, and acquiring a light accompaniment comprising bell-like cymbals, and a regular falling soft tom-tom pattern. This is repeated, then the second part of the verse picks for an additional answer. The solo guitar takes the 1st "theme" and plays with it, before the second verse is presented with the ongoing light percussion.

Little tension is built - but the song does not demand it. This is not a dramatic song, and that is part of its progressive nature - it is painting, with striking lights and shades, a kind of watercolour-hued portrait of the Moon Child that is non-linear, which kind of pushes against the intrinsically linear nature of music, yet covers many angles;

"Dancing in the shallows of a river", "Dreaming in the shadow of the willow", "Talking to the trees of the cobweb strange". None of this necessarily describes a person, real or ficticious - to me, it describes the effects of moonlight on earth - the reflection in the river or fountain, the moonbeams "dancing" and "Waving silver wands", and the interplay of the moon's light on flowers, cobwebs and the sun dial. "Sailing on the wind in a milk white gown" and "Waiting for a smile from a sun child" are self- explanatory, and "Playing hide and seek with the ghosts of dawn" clearly refers to clouds.

So the music expresses the soul of these ideas - the subtle keyboard changes highlight this best.

You'll note that this is not standard song structure - there is a 3-part idea that is repeated 3 times for this first section, which could be seen as verse/chorus/instrumental x3, except that the "chorus" is in no way a chorus, but an extension of the verse.

Then we have the instrumental section, which continues this expression - it seems a bit pointless to map it all out, but the first section appears to represent the rippling waters of the river - the willow, of course, will be on the river bank, and the slightly sinister edge that the music acquires could be expressing this.

We continue in the branches of the trees, "talking of the cobweb strange" - 5:28 might be expressing this, with tiny strands of melodic runs that pick up from each other. Just re-read the lyrics as this section plays out - it's not too hard to make your own mind up about what's being expressed.

The music of this section has an atonal feel to it - and some of the stylisations are strikingly similar to music in "Pierrot Lunaire", by Arnold Schoenberg. Listen to "Der Kranken Mond" - particularly the flute backing. An online recording of the entire work may be found online - note also that there are 4 sections of Pierrot directly concerned with the moon.

The interplay between the instrumentalists here is remarkable - all aiming for an overall series of pictures, or, rather continual moving image, with none taking centre stage, going into personal space every now and again, then rejoining the conversation, using a predefined set of ideas. This is not aimless noodle - this is carefully constructed. The point at which it all comes back together (around 10:45) is masterly - all parts drifting slowly towards each other, and the little major chord on the guitar clearly showing the "smile from the sun child" - all music from this point has this upbeat feel of morning approaching and the darkness lifting.

All of which serves to underline "Moon Child"'s position in the album - as the penultimate piece, it provides the necessary contrast from which to kick into the grand splendour of "The Court of the Crimson King". Indeed, if you have your stereo at the necessary volume to catch each and every tiny detail in "Moon Child", the title track is like a mighty rush of wind, and somewhat overwhelming. It's in this dynamic perspective that the true power of this album may be experienced - and you probably won't get it listening to compressed mp3s on your computer speakers or headphones. On a half-decent stereo, this contrast will blow your socks off. On a decent system, it's like hearing it properly for the first time - every time.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 05:20
The Doves managed to takethe essences of the opening part and incorporate it into the M62 Song.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 05:37
Originally posted by Silly Silly wrote:

To my knowledge the whole middle section is free form improvisation.  No musical rules apply whatsoever.  What an amazing song though.

I seriously doubt that, unless they recorded it in a full-band, which is very hard to pull-off.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 05:52
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:


Originally posted by Aragorn224 Aragorn224 wrote:

I dunno, really.


Great contribution, but at least you got a post in!


I think that was his intention
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 05:53
Originally posted by Blowin Free Blowin Free wrote:

Originally posted by Silly Silly wrote:


To my knowledge the whole middle section is free form improvisation.  No musical rules apply whatsoever.  What an amazing song though.



I seriously doubt that, unless they recorded it in a full-band, which is very hard to pull-off.


Many bands have full improv sections...

Porcupine Tree's "Metanoia" is completely improvisation, and so is their "MOONLOOP: (Improvisation)" On Sky moves Sideways DISC2
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 06:08
Originally posted by progkidjoel progkidjoel wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:


Originally posted by Aragorn224 Aragorn224 wrote:

I dunno, really.


Great contribution, but at least you got a post in!


I think that was his intention
Don't laugh, but he has been Pming me. He's really angry about this post and thinks I have it in for him.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 06:13
You do *sobs eternally*
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