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People who disown Marillion without Fish are...?
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Poll Question: What's their case?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
1 [2.08%]
1 [2.08%]
4 [8.33%]
11 [22.92%]
11 [22.92%]
1 [2.08%]
17 [35.42%]
2 [4.17%]
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judahbenkenobi View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 02 2021 at 15:33
People who disown Marillion without Fish are...?

...exactly like people who disown Yes without Jon, or Pink Floyd without Roger, or Genesis without Gabriel, Hackett, Collins, Phillips, Silver, Mayhew, and Ray Wilson. Or King Crimson without... [insert long list here]
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Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Yeah, a good and knowing post.

With regard to the band, what is extremely telling is that fans of the band such as I from the really old days (Market Square Heroes time) have not just stuck with the band, but loved every single part of the journey as it has progressed. This includes h-era Marillion, various side projects, and also Fish solo stuff. The band have had an almost unique way of bonding a pretty sizeable group of fans to them who have stuck with them through thick and thin, and it should not be forgotten that they really were pioneers of the crowdfunding model of making music, and that would not have been possible without us loyal fans at the time, most of whom started watching and listening to them because of a bloody great big Scottish man called Dick who wore makeup and sang songs that reminded us of the prog heyday.

I have always found forums such as this to be rather too full of really obsessive types. Not just Prog Archives, but also, for example, Star Trek forums, where anything that does not include a character scratching his or her arse in the same manner as Captain Kirk did in 1967 is automatically “not proper Trek”. Our equivalent here is “not proper prog”, or “the eighth sequence of music on the third track automatically disqualifies the album from being categorised as Symphonic Prog”, and etc.

I think it might have been better had the band changed their name when Hogarth joined, and, indeed, band members have confirmed in numerous interviews that this was a serious discussion amongst them.

It really is all about the music. I get why some of the purists don’t get or like them, but I just love the storytelling, incredible musicianship, and the atmosphere the band create.

And exceedingly well said from your side too.  

Speaking for myself, I am definitely not obsessive about the Fish sound (which is why I did a revisit today).  I tend to respect change on the part of a band and get bored of bands that don't change (which would be the reason I have no idea what songs are on the last released Iron Maiden or AC DC albums).  It's just this visceral reaction in me to Hogarth that I can't really explain.  Happens; music is a bit like food.  When you don't like it, you don't like it, even if the best chef in the world has cooked the meal for you.
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

There's a history behind it. Once upon a time on Progarchives, there were incessant arguments about it with always the attitude from H fans that Fish Marillion fans were somehow closed minded dinosaurs for not appreciating the clearly superior product of the H era. What this poll did is awaken a sleeping giant. It's fun in a different way to have a good old fashioned progarchives spat; otherwise the place is semi-dead barring the occasions when everybody tries for the nth time to get Pedro to make sense.

Yeah, a good and knowing post.

With regard to the band, what is extremely telling is that fans of the band such as I from the really old days (Market Square Heroes time) have not just stuck with the band, but loved every single part of the journey as it has progressed. This includes h-era Marillion, various side projects, and also Fish solo stuff. The band have had an almost unique way of bonding a pretty sizeable group of fans to them who have stuck with them through thick and thin, and it should not be forgotten that they really were pioneers of the crowdfunding model of making music, and that would not have been possible without us loyal fans at the time, most of whom started watching and listening to them because of a bloody great big Scottish man called Dick who wore makeup and sang songs that reminded us of the prog heyday.

I have always found forums such as this to be rather too full of really obsessive types. Not just Prog Archives, but also, for example, Star Trek forums, where anything that does not include a character scratching his or her arse in the same manner as Captain Kirk did in 1967 is automatically “not proper Trek”. Our equivalent here is “not proper prog”, or “the eighth sequence of music on the third track automatically disqualifies the album from being categorised as Symphonic Prog”, and etc.

I think it might have been better had the band changed their name when Hogarth joined, and, indeed, band members have confirmed in numerous interviews that this was a serious discussion amongst them.

It really is all about the music. I get why some of the purists don’t get or like them, but I just love the storytelling, incredible musicianship, and the atmosphere the band create.


Edited by lazland - December 29 2020 at 06:52
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There's a history behind it. Once upon a time on Progarchives, there were incessant arguments about it with always the attitude from H fans that Fish Marillion fans were somehow closed minded dinosaurs for not appreciating the clearly superior product of the H era. What this poll did is awaken a sleeping giant. It's fun in a different way to have a good old fashioned progarchives spat; otherwise the place is semi-dead barring the occasions when everybody tries for the nth time to get Pedro to make sense.

Edited by rogerthat - December 29 2020 at 06:36
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all the bashing Hogarth era gets here makes me... sad (for lack of a better word) and looking at the poll options, here I thought this poll was a joke,  not to be taken seriously. My bad... Ouch

Edited by Cristi - December 29 2020 at 06:29
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I sampled some of Brave and Seasons End and also a random Steve Hogarth live performance off the net.  Just to see if maybe at that time, I had reacted too strongly to a different sound.  Nah.  Gonna stay away.  The thing is it's all so mellow and atmospheric so adding a super whiny voice on top of it makes it a bit like a prog Smashing Pumpkins (though not that horrific...ew, could never ever stand Billy Corgan). I can stand the super cring-ey Jonathan Higgs on Everything Everything because their music is so dynamic and kicks ass. 

I tend to 'appreciate' Fish's singing for the energy and passion rather than being head over heels in love with his tone.  But I swear, listening to Family Business/Cliche right after H-Marillion makes him sound like Hayward or Greg Lake in comparison.
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I'm not a big fan of Marillion, but, oh god, Clutching at Straws is definitely a top-tier album. Their best work so far, I love especially the guitar work. The other Fish albums are nice and I definitely enjoy them more than anything done after he was gone. It is really weird how the band changed so much with the following album, with a more sober approach instead of lively arrangements. Fish solo carrier wasn't that great either, although Sunsets on Empires is my favorite work from him after Clutching.


Edited by Deadwing - December 29 2020 at 04:57
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Thanks Greg I’ve missed your sweet lingo-karate as well.
It’s a weird sort of tightrope walk..vocals that is. I used to hate Hammill’s overwrought delivery...and then I absolutely loved it for a couple of years...now I’m somewhere in between and go through days where I can’t stand his singing whilst other days it’s nigh on brilliant

Btw I was more or less referencing Nathalie Portman saying seabass again and again in Thor 2...which incidentally is the finest bit of the entire flick

Edited by Guldbamsen - December 29 2020 at 04:47
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Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I can dig the music without seabass..but I just don’t dig Hogarth’s vocals. Too emotional? I’m not sure...
There’s the odd track here and there that I like but not enough to go out and purchase albums. I burnt my hands on both Brave and Marbles.



Seabass, that's what some underwater rock bands use:





I'm not keen on Hogarth's vocals (sensitive and a little too mainstream sounding in a way for me from what I remember). Fish I can find a little too emotive (mind you, I warmed up to Peter Hammill long ago despite finding much of his vocals downright embarrassing at first).

Very good to see you around, David. I hope you're doing well. I have really missed your presence at the forum.
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I can dig the music without seabass..but I just don’t dig Hogarth’s vocals. Too emotional? I’m not sure...
There’s the odd track here and there that I like but not enough to go out and purchase albums. I burnt my hands on both Brave and Marbles.
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


I'm so with ya on this one. H era just seems to sleepytime lackluster. Not really the vocalist's fault but rather the band went for dream pop inspired almost AOR vibes. A big yawn for me. Fish solo albums were better but yes that magic chemistry that made the first four Marillion albums so great was lost for me too.

Some of it IS his fault, if you've heard his attempts to sing Script For A Jester's Tear.  He just bails out of nailing that "Game is OVERRRR" scream.  He was a completely different kind of singer. He would not have fit into the Fish-Marillion sound so the band would have had to move to where they could accommodate his voice.  As it turns out, they wanted to all along anyway.
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Raised the bar over most 70s prog? LOL Prog rock actually had the semblance, however faint, of progressivity in the 70s. It actually differentiated itself from the run-of-the-mill rock and roll of the time. The bands you spat out are pale imitations. Like a Casio keyboard's stale simulation of actual instruments.


Indeed.  Raised the bar over what, exactly?  Thick As A Brick?  Foxtrot?  Tarkus/Brain Salad Surgery? Close To The Edge?  Wish You Were Here?  Rotter's Club?  Seriously.  


Love Beach perhaps?   

Talk about lowering the bar. LOL
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Originally posted by Chaser Chaser wrote:

I loved Marillion with Fish. I've got all the Fish era albums. When Fish left I was very sad, but I bought the new album from the band, and the solo album from Fish.

Both of them disappointed me.

The chemistry was gone. Fish had the vocal sound I loved, with that Scottish leer, and the intelligent lyrics, and the concepts where themes crossed over between albums.

Combine that with the great musicianship of the band, especially Steve Rothery's guitar, and the result was something special.

I have albums from the Hogarth era, but they just don't hold the same appeal for me.

The Hogarth albums are fairly standard rock. They're not particularly proggy. The musicianship is still good, but, for me, the magic died when Fish left.

More or less what I feel.  But I still do like Vigil In A Wilderness a lot.  When I listened to that, I realized that Fish had been hugely influential on the Marillion sound, to the point of dominating it. Maybe that's why they wanted him out, so Rothery & Co could do their own thing.
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Raised the bar over most 70s prog? LOL Prog rock actually had the semblance, however faint, of progressivity in the 70s. It actually differentiated itself from the run-of-the-mill rock and roll of the time. The bands you spat out are pale imitations. Like a Casio keyboard's stale simulation of actual instruments.


Indeed.  Raised the bar over what, exactly?  Thick As A Brick?  Foxtrot?  Tarkus/Brain Salad Surgery? Close To The Edge?  Wish You Were Here?  Rotter's Club?  Seriously.  


Love Beach perhaps?   
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Originally posted by iluvmarillion iluvmarillion wrote:

I'm one of the smart ones. It's your loss if you don't like H-era Marillion.

But that goes for any music, though.  It's always your loss if you don't listen to and appreciate something. There's very little music that's utterly, objectively bad.  So one has to prioritize and listen to the music the mind gravitates to rather than be like, "Oh, it's Marillion, it's got to have something in it for me if I only tried hard enough".  There's no point to forcing it.
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Raised the bar over most 70s prog? LOL Prog rock actually had the semblance, however faint, of progressivity in the 70s. It actually differentiated itself from the run-of-the-mill rock and roll of the time. The bands you spat out are pale imitations. Like a Casio keyboard's stale simulation of actual instruments.

Indeed.  Raised the bar over what, exactly?  Thick As A Brick?  Foxtrot?  Tarkus/Brain Salad Surgery? Close To The Edge?  Wish You Were Here?  Rotter's Club?  Seriously.  
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People who disown Marillion without Fish are... not fond of Hogath's vocals. Confused
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

"People who disown Marillion without Fish..."

may be pescetarian.


Or Episcopalians? Certainly not Presbyterians.


Not even Sufiish (neither Sufiism nor Sunfishism).

Or just plain wetter than a Fish's wet bits.

PS. I'm not into Marillion with or without D.W. Dick (aka Fish).





Edited by Logan - December 28 2020 at 16:40
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

"People who disown Marillion without Fish..."

may be pescetarian.

Or Episcopalians? Certainly not Presbyterians.
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