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The Prognaut 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: April 14 2004 Location: Somewhere Else Status: Offline Points: 1492 |
 Topic: LanguagePosted: July 28 2004 at 15:48 |
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That I won't deny!!!
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break the circle
reset my head wake the sleepwalker and i'll wake the dead |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: July 28 2004 at 15:44 |
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As I said, all credit to Andrea, he/she is clearly enthusiastic. I supect if my reviews were translated into their language by Google or Alta Vista, the results would be similar. Entertaining though! |
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The Prognaut
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 14 2004 Location: Somewhere Else Status: Offline Points: 1492 |
Posted: July 28 2004 at 15:20 |
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Easy: Andrea Salvador is surely restless when it comes to posting a new review in English... the idea is there man, it's all about trying to orginize the text with coherence (it also shows tons of enjoyment and excitement!)
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break the circle
reset my head wake the sleepwalker and i'll wake the dead |
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Marcelo
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 15 2004 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 310 |
Posted: July 27 2004 at 20:19 |
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I guess my English isn't better
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: July 27 2004 at 15:12 |
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Fitzcarraldo
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1835 |
Posted: July 26 2004 at 17:31 |
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Anyone speak Bahasa? Care to translate this review? ESPERANTO - Last Tango  — Permainan orkestrasi yang dimainkan oleh kelompok ini benar-benar prima untuk sebuah grup rock yang mengawinkan unsur rock yang garang dengan keanggunan aransemen musik klasik, dengan mengandalkan kekuatan melodi alat musik gesek, baik biola maupun cello. Permainan mereka dalam LAST TANGO, benar-benar bisa membawa suasana tango sesungguhnya, namun masih bisa kita tengarai aroma musik rock disitu. ELEANOR RIGBY? Well, The Beatles pasti sangat "merestui" keindahan lagu mereka bisa dibuat dengan aransemen yang luar biasa jenius dibawakan Esperanto. Salut.. |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: July 17 2004 at 12:18 |
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Google translates the above as: As I before said, exactly liking very the diversity of this our world, unhappyly I have that to agree to Iván on this subject because I find that he has as many languages there it are that it is impossible all to understand what is written, and is also impossible to control what it is written if you cannot understand the language. In my opinion it is better in such a way to have uniformity in these pages how much in the critical ones of the albums. It forgives not to have written this in English of this time, but I am only trying to illustrate the difficulty for some if we do not use a common way of communication. To use Google Tools De Idiomas or another tool of translation of the InterNet is a bag in my opinion (e, of any skill, these tools do not function very well). Abraços for all. |
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goose
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: June 20 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4097 |
Posted: July 17 2004 at 12:10 |
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I completely failed to read the post above mine, didn't I? At least it shows there's someone with the same idea as me I suppose.
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Fitzcarraldo
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1835 |
Posted: July 17 2004 at 06:54 |
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Como eu disse antes, mesmo gostando muito da diversidade desse nosso mundo, infelizmente tenho que concordar com Iván sobre este assunto porque acho que tem tantas idiomas aí fora que é impossível para todos entender o que está escrito, e é também impossível controlar o que está escrito se você não pode entender a língua. Na minha opinião é melhor ter uniformidade tanto nestas páginas quanto nas críticas dos álbuns. Desculpe não ter escrito isso em inglês desta vez, mas estou apenas tentando ilustrar a dificuldade para alguns se não usamos um meio comum de comunicação. Usar Google Ferramentas De Idiomas ou outra ferramenta de tradução da internet é um saco na minha opinião (e, de qualquer jeito, estas ferramentas não funcionam muito bem). Abraços para todos. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: July 17 2004 at 02:57 |
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Being a Spanish speaker I should be in favour of writing in my native language, believe me it's much easier and won't need a dictionary, but this an English site. I write in a big Latin American prog' community as much as I do here and love that place, but I wouldn't dare to write there in English (even when 90% of the members understand this language), they'll just ask me to leave if I did so. I believe it's not fair for the members in this page to write in other languages, and also believe things must be uniform, today we see messages in Spanish, French and Portuguese (which I have the luck to understand) but how long to find a review in Thai or Greek with a different set of letters? I do agree with the administrators, there's no way to control what it's said in other languages when we hardly can deal with intolerant, racist and sexist comments in English. I would be glad to help with some reviews in Spanish, but I don't think it's a solution because if somebody doesn't write in English it's because he/she doesn't understand the language and this person wouldn't be able to use most of the features here like the Forum, Biographies of the bands, etc. A French speaking person wouldn't be able to find the reviews in French because he can't search the main page and would be very lucky to find a review in his language about a specific band, so I see no reason to allow them unless there's a special section for reviews in other languages, but that's more work for Max and company. So I believe there's no reason to open the place for different languages, there are lots of places for people that don't understand English and I would be glad to give 10 sites of Prog' pages in Spanish. Iván |
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator Joined: January 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2632 |
Posted: July 17 2004 at 00:44 |
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Foxy: Even if all the reviews at a given moment were in foreign languages, anyone opening the main page is going to notice immediately that everything except the reviews is in English. I have to believe that the vast majority of non-English-speaking people would understand what that means. Easy Livin: I very much like your solution. Having non-English reviews "vetted" by a member who speaks that language is an excellent idea, one I will speak with Max about immediately. As Goose notes, this will entail some extra work for some members. However, I am hoping that we can find members who would be willing to do this. As you further suggest, we may need to limit the languages in which reviews may be written, and warn new reviewers that reviews in other languages will be deleted. All: I believe the concern about disrespectful, abusive, etc. reviews in non-English languages is probably overstated: it is far more likely to happen in English (and I think the history of the site bears that out). In addition, even if something abusive or disrespectful were included in a non-English review, the irony is that only the people who speak that language would notice it. And one would hope that, if it did occur, someone who spoke that language, but knew enough English to communicate, would either contact the admin group or post a thread in that regard, so that action could be taken. Still, I think the chances are fairly slim that such a thing would occur at all. I am praying that Max has read my post to this thread and not already gone ahead and deleted all the non-English reviews. (I did send him an urgent PM asking him to read it. I have not yet heard back). In the meantime, I appreciate all your thoughtful, reasoned comments, and hope that we can find a "compromise solution" that will allow out non-English-speaking friends to continue to contribute to and participate on the site. Peace. |
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4097 |
Posted: July 16 2004 at 18:08 |
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Perhaps, then, you could force foreign reviews to be screened by someone who speaks the language before they end up on the site? As long as there aren't many it shouldn't be too big in volume, and if no one understands it then obviously there's no point in it being there. I appreciate this is just causing more work for people involved in the site but I don't know, it's just an idea.
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: July 16 2004 at 16:04 |
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Maani, I am convinced that the requirement that all reviews should be in English is not intended in any way to be "censorship". I think the issue is entirely one of practicalities. As the esteemed moderator of the forum, and given the entirely sensible guidelines you have published from time to time, it must presumably be of concern to you if submissions are made in a language with is "foreign" to you. It will inevitably be far more difficult to know whether someone is being disrespectful, abusive etc., if you do not know what they have said? The same must go for the reviews. Sadly, as we have seen of late, with unrestricted access to be able to post reviews, some people have chosen to abuse the facility. I have no problem whatsoever with reviews being submitted in languages other than English. If through my own ignorance I cannot understand them I will not read them, but that is my loss. I tip my hat in respect to those who’s first language is not English (some would say that includes us Scots!), but who attempt to write in English to comply with the site’s requirements. I would hate to think though that inappropriate reviews, comments, submissions to the forum etc. slipped through the net because no one involved in the site spoke the language they were written in. I think it has been mentioned before in this thread, but if other languages are to be acceptable, we need to make sure that we have someone participating in the site who accepts responsibility for monitoring for postings in a specified language, and ensures they meet with the sites standards. The acceptable languages could then be listed, with a warning that postings in other languages deleted as the site is not in a position to "validate" them. I would emphasise I do not think this is about censorship, it is purely a matter of administration. We are dependent on good folk like Max and yourself to police the site to ensure it is not misused. The rest of us too of course have a responsibility to report any abuse. The "rules" of the site should be designed to make this as easy as possible for those who are good enough to give up their time to run things. |
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The Prognaut
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 14 2004 Location: Somewhere Else Status: Offline Points: 1492 |
Posted: July 16 2004 at 14:51 |
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It's all relative... what if it were all the way around? Spanish, French and Russian speakers that are not familiar with English will never come back. I happen to like maani's temporal solution. Maybe it's all about giving it a try and see how the users respond, huh? Regards, Land
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break the circle
reset my head wake the sleepwalker and i'll wake the dead |
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Foxy
Forum Groupie 
Joined: April 17 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 60 |
Posted: July 16 2004 at 14:34 |
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Imagine this: someone new to this site opens the main page and sees that all reviews are in Spanish, Franch and Russian. If neither is his/her native language this persom may think that it is a non-English site and never come back.
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator Joined: January 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2632 |
Posted: July 16 2004 at 01:45 |
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Max: I strongly disagree with your removal of non-english reviews, and ask that you refrain from doing so for now. Indeed, it is particularly odd that you feel the need to do so, given that your native tongue is French. As Danbo, Fitzcarraldo, Marcelo and others have pointed out, Progarchives is a global website: it does not represent only English-speaking peoples. Yes, the review guidelines ask for English, but they don't demand it - and shouldn't. We might say "If you have the capacity to write in English, we strongly prefer that you do so. However, if you cannot, feel free to write in your native language." As more than one person has pointed out, given that this site is a global one, it may very well be that I cannot read a review in Spanish, French, German or Serbo-Croatian. But that does not mean those people should be "closed out" from reviewing. Similarly, it may very well be that, despite the fact that the site is created in English, many in the global community may not be able to read English that well, and would prefer reviews written in their native tongues, since they can read them. I believe it would be a BIG mistake to alienate members and visitors by requiring absolutely that all review be written in English. And it would be nothing less than an act of self-sabotage to remove non-English reviews. Stay your hand, Max. Censoring (or even regulating) profanity is one thing; censoring all languages but English is virtually an act of war... Peace. Edited by maani |
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M@X
Forum & Site Admin Group
Co-founder, Admin & Webmaster Joined: January 29 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 4028 |
Posted: June 21 2004 at 13:06 |
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ATTENTION We are currently trying to remove non-enlgish reviews.. Thanks for your help guys ! Edited by MAX@ |
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Prog On !
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The Prognaut
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 14 2004 Location: Somewhere Else Status: Offline Points: 1492 |
Posted: June 04 2004 at 18:52 |
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Estoy de acuerdo con Marcelo tanto como lo estoy con Iván. Páginas como Progarchives fueron creadas por anglo parlantes para ser usadas bajo ciertos lineamientos. En lo personal y por obvias razones, no me incomoda leer críticas tanto en inglés o español (inclusive francés), pero cuando son lenguas como el portugués, italiano o thai, me imposibilita de ponerles la atención debida y continúo con la crítica que le sigue en inglés. Así que pienso que una solución, como he visto algunos hispano parlantes usuarios han optado por hacer, es, escribir nuestras reseñas y comentarios en ambos idiomas: inglés y la lengua materna. Tomará más tiempo, pero quedaremos satisfechos. I completely agree with Marcelo as much as I do with Iván. Websites like Progarchives were created by English speaking people to be used under certain guidelines. In my personal opinion and for obvious reasons, I'm ok with reading critics whether they're writen in Spanish or English (even French), but when they're writen in Portuguese, Italian or Thai, it is a drawback to me in order to pay them the attention they deserve and I just continue reading the next one appearing in English. So I suggest that one suitable solution, like I've seen many other Spanish speaking users do, is, to write our reviews and comments in both: English and our Mother Tongue. I'd take us more time to do so, but we all be satisfied. Saludos, Regards, Land |
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break the circle
reset my head wake the sleepwalker and i'll wake the dead |
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Bryan
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 01 2004 Status: Offline Points: 3013 |
Posted: June 04 2004 at 18:32 |
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Right now all but one of the front page reviews is in french. I think this problem really needs to be adressed.
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Marcelo
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 15 2004 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 310 |
Posted: May 24 2004 at 23:57 |
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Ivan, just different points of view
 (I'll take care from a sue  ... )
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Language
Topic Options
Easy Livin wrote:
BANCO DEL MUTUO SOCCORSO - Io Sono Nato Libero
ORME, LE - Uomo Di Pezza 
— "Gioco Di Bimba" is one of the moving songs more that never it has listened! And that to say of "Una Dolcezza Nuova"? Of "La Porta Chiusa", "Figure Di Cartone" or of "Aspettando L'alba"? Simply that it was difficult to make bis after "Collage", but it for intensity how much for emotionally "Uomo Di Pezza" is not advanced and therefore confirmation a group that is not just case to define dinosaurs! 
ORME, LE - Collage
CURVED AIR - Second Album
EMERSON LAKE & PALMER (ELP) - Emerson, Lake & Powell
BARCLAY JAMES HARVEST (BJH) - Revival - Live 1999 
, but here is a good point: non-English reviews are deleted, so these written by Andrea will stay. Confused? Anyway, my congratulations for him, but I would prefer to read (or try to read) his nice reviews in his native tongue.