The Christian Thread

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Unconscious things have significance because they affect the lives of conscious beings.  Good deeds of non-Christians are significant because they affect Christians and those who may become Christians.  What they do in this life also has eternal significance; whether or not someone who does not believe comes to faith or not has eternal significance.  If someone dies a non-believer (I'll allow for your view of the existence of hell here) his life may be completely insignificant to him, but it's still significant for the lives of others. Don't you see how you can inductively build an eternal (theoretically) consequence to the events of a finite life in this manner. If person A affects person B where A and B are obviously arbitrary, then you can have chains of implication stretching across eons only limited by the life of humanity as a whole. As a result of this, the transient life would have eternal significance. I find your view of significance incredibly misguided and somewhat insulting, but even working within that frame I think your conclusions are not quite right.

The life of humanity is also temporary.  Modern science has made it clear that our universe will not last forever; either the universe will expand so far that it will eventually extinguish itself, or it will expand up to a limit and then implode inward on itself.  So the transient life cannot have eternal significance, since humanity and our very universe are themselves transient.

I don't mean to insult you or anyone else, but I don't apologize for what I'm saying.  As a Christian, I believe that, for believers, life does go on forever, so I'm not trying to say that I believe anybody's life is insignificant, but only to show the inherent implications of other worldviews.  Nietzsche and Sarte, philosophers admired by many non-religious people, both came to similar conclusions as mine.  I'm trying to take their ideas to their natural conclusion.

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: How do you know?  According to Scripture, our bodies will be perfected and glorified in heaven; our memories will probably be perfect.  Furthermore, heaven may very well exist in a dimension of time beyond our own.

You don't sound so sure yourself. Assume that I'm right. What then?

Also, if we exist in a different temporal dimension then the very idea of memory which you seem to tie meaning to may very well be meaningless.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Ambient Hurricanes wrote: The life of humanity is also temporary.  Modern science has made it clear that our universe will not last forever; either the universe will expand so far that it will eventually extinguish itself, or it will expand up to a limit and then implode inward on itself.  So the transient life cannot have eternal significance, since humanity and our very universe are themselves transient. I find your appeal to science strange considering the circumstances. However, once again, ignore this aspect and answer the question. With that said, modern science has not established that the universe is singular and unconnected to others. If that is not so, then an induction can be built upon universes as well.

What's so strange about the appeal to science?  I used it to answer your question.  You are correct, however, in that science has not proven the nonexistence (as if that were possible) of other universes.  If humans could somehow travel to other universes, and if we could somehow propagate our influence there into eternity, then you could make the argument that human existence has meaning apart from God.  I, for one, don't think that's possible, and even if it were I think that the human race would die out long before we could attain it.  Neither of us can prove the other right or wrong on that count, though.

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: I don't mean to insult you or anyone else, but I don't apologize for what I'm saying.  As a Christian, I believe that, for believers, life does go on forever, so I'm not trying to say that I believe anybody's life is insignificant, but only to show the inherent implications of other worldviews.  Nietzsche and Sarte, philosophers admired by many non-religious people, both came to similar conclusions as mine.  I'm trying to take their ideas to their natural conclusion.

I didn't mean insult in the literal sense of me taking offense. I think the meaning of meaning (ugh) is varying slightly in your use. If I understand Nietzsche, which I don't, then nihilism was only a means to an end. The idea being to tear down the old and flawed moral structures so that man can me made anew.

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As I said, I'm taking Nietzsche's philosophy to it's natural conclusion.  Nietzsche taught that the only way to deal with the meaninglessness of life was to defy it, that is, to assert ones own identity as strongly as possible, to exalt oneself to the highest level of human power and accomplishment, to become the Ubermensch ("Superman"), as he put it.  Nietzsche saw the futility of life without God but tried to find a way out of that futility.  I'm saying that there is no way out.  Jesus is our only hope.

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: What's so strange about the appeal to science?  I used it to answer your question.  You are correct, however, in that science has not proven the nonexistence (as if that were possible) of other universes.  If humans could somehow travel to other universes, and if we could somehow propagate our influence there into eternity, then you could make the argument that human existence has meaning apart from God.  I, for one, don't think that's possible, and even if it were I think that the human race would die out long before we could attain it.  Neither of us can prove the other right or wrong on that count, though.

Well I could very well be proved right (weird choice of words since I'm not actually suggesting that this is my preferred cosmological theory) in the coming years. I'm not exactly stating the craziest scientific hypothesis in the world. It's relatively well respected.

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: As I said, I'm taking Nietzsche's philosophy to it's natural conclusion.  Nietzsche taught that the only way to deal with the meaninglessness of life was to defy it, that is, to assert ones own identity as strongly as possible, to exalt oneself to the highest level of human power and accomplishment, to become the Ubermensch ("Superman"), as he put it.  Nietzsche saw the futility of life without God but tried to find a way out of that futility.  I'm saying that there is no way out.  Jesus is our only hope.

It seems awfully presumptuous of you to say there's no way out. Nietzsche saw a way out. I do as well. Your inability to find meaning without a god means little to myself.

This is an interesting discussion. Ambient Hurricanes seems to be arguing from the premise that only things which are eternal have meaning, and any ending renders them meaningless. He also talks a great deal about memory, seeming to believe that something stops having meaning as soon as no one can remember it any longer.

Would that mean then, that God would cease to have meaning if everyone in the world turned away from Christianity at some point? (ignoring for the moment all of those who have already died ad gone to heaven.)

I haven't read the whole discussion, but I also assume you don't believe in Hell, since then even non-believers would exist eternally (in hell) and therefore have meaning?

The idea of time wouldn't be meaningless. I think the need for, ability to maintain, and understanding of memory would change though. 

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Ambient Hurricanes wrote: How do you know?  According to Scripture, our bodies will be perfected and glorified in heaven; our memories will probably be perfect.  Furthermore, heaven may very well exist in a dimension of time beyond our own. You don't sound so sure yourself. Assume that I'm right. What then? Also, if we exist in a different temporal dimension then the very idea of memory which you seem to tie meaning to may very well be meaningless. I only sound unsure because Scripture tells us very little concerning exactly what heaven will be like.  Everything changes when you come into the presence of God.  Remember, I believe that human life is only significant because of Him, in relation to Him.  When a person goes to heaven, they come into the very presence of the One who is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End of all things.  He is the meaning of life; He made all things and all things hold together in him.  Meaning and significance don't rest with you or your memory when you are in the presence of the Significant One, the great I AM. Then why are you tying everything to memory and finiteness? This argument you just made is completely different from your previous ones.

thellama73 wrote: This is an interesting discussion. Ambient Hurricanes seems to be arguing from the premise that only things which are eternal have meaning, and any ending renders them meaningless. He also talks a great deal about memory, seeming to believe that something stops having meaning as soon as no one can remember it any longer. Would that mean then, that God would cease to have meaning if everyone in the world turned away from Christianity at some point? (ignoring for the moment all of those who have already died ad gone to heaven.) I haven't read the whole discussion, but I also assume you don't believe in Hell, since then even non-believers would exist eternally (in hell) and therefore have meaning?

Something doesn't lose meaning once no one can remember it anymore; it still could have had a major influence on humanity (right now speaking from a perspective where God does exist and thus life has meaning), and thus would have meaning even though no one actually remembers it anymore. 

God is a self-existent and self-sufficient being.  He doesn't need anyone to remember Him or to be influenced by Him; He is Love, and His existence is completely sufficient for Himself.  God didn't create us because he wanted to have meaning to his existence; He created us to love us.

I do believe in Hell, but, since Rob doesn't believe in Hell, and I was responding to him when I talked about unbelievers, I answered him on his own terms.

that's not what presumptuous means.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Something doesn't lose meaning once no one can remember it anymore; it still could have had a major influence on humanity (right now speaking from a perspective where God does exist and thus life has meaning), and thus would have meaning even though no one actually remembers it anymore.  But you have said that if everyone one and thing forgot an act, then it would be meaningless.

I don't think I did.  I was talking about death, after which no one can remember or be influenced by anything anymore.  If I emphasized the memory, it wasn't to exclude an influence whose source is unremembered.