Magma´s ideology controversy. Read this!

40footwolf wrote: The music may be beautiful, it may even be genius, but I can't in all good conscience support it with my money, knowing what I know.

What exactly do you know though?  NOTHING has been proven.  Even if the rumors DO turn out to be true, it's not like Vander is the first (or last) musician in history to hold unsavory views.  I know for sure I'm not going to let unproven rumors spoil my enjoyment of one of my favorite bands, and I know that I'm going to enjoy their concert next weekend, I know that I'll enjoy meeting the band, and I know that how he leads his personal life is his own business.  Not mine, not yours, not the world's, unless he does something truly dangerous or upsetting.

Obviously, I can't change your mind if you're so keen on not buying their music, but I don't agree with the reasoning.

Obviously the guy doesn't care about sales-somebody mentioned he lived in a castle, right? That's not a guy who's hurting for scratch. I'm not trying to cripple the guy financially, it's just the principle of the thing. 

OK............. So Vander may be a fascist. Bad !!! I seriously abhor Adolf Hitler, SS, Holocaust and all murdering fascists/nazis.  

But what about Robert Wyatt from Soft Machine and Matching Mole ? The consequence of this thread is that he too should be boycotted and the 1, 2 and Third album by Soft Machine + his solo work + all Matching Mole albums should also be boycotted.

The reason is his support for three of four worst genocidal regimes in the history of the mankind. The fourth was Hitler's regime, btw. Robert Wyatt supported and is rumored to still support Stalin's paranoid and inept running of USSR which cost tens of million innocent lives. Ditto for Mao Tse Tung's running of China & Pol Pot's genocide in Cambodia.

We are not talking rumors here. We are talking molten lava hot facts. Or what do you think the "Little Red Record" and the art work means ? You would not seriously think that the art work describes the latest cookery book from Angela Smith ? Or do you believe Robert Wyatt is holding a vacuum cleaner in his hands there ?  

Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot also had and have many other fans among the prog rock musicians. This too is molten lava hot facts. Not rumors like the allegations against Vander.

Sorry, but a genocide is a genocide. Those who abhor Vander on the basis of rumors, must also abhor the likes of Robert Wyatt if they have any credibility. There is no compromise here, no middle ground and no excuses. The life of a Cambodian peasant has the same worth as the life of a Jew. Anything else is called racism. Are you guys who condemn Vander racists ? 

   

Edited by toroddfuglesteg - September 10 2010 at 01:48

Robert Wyatt was a member of the British Communist Party.  That does not mean he necessarily supported Stalin, Mao or Pot.  Those are just bad versions of Communism.

I'm not saying Communism is a good idea, by the way.  I'm just saying that just because someone was/is a Communist, that they support/ed the idea of genocide.

40footwolf, don't be so daft.  Enjoy the music.

Wagner has been enjoyed and conducted by Jewish for many years as well.

Will you also boycott very early VdGG because Chris Judge Smith was a Scientologist?


Edited by James - September 10 2010 at 01:56

James wrote: Robert Wyatt was a member of the British Communist Party.  That does not mean he necessarily supported Stalin, Mao or Pot.  Those are just bad versions of Communism. I'm not saying Communism is a good idea, by the way.  I'm just saying that just because someone was/is a Communist, that they supported the idea of genocide.

Card also happens to be a from a Mormon family (but apparently is not a Mormon himself).  So those of us who don't like their religion may decide to boycott them too.  However, I'm not that silly.  I use the Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Familysearch website all the time.

James wrote: Card also happens to be a from a Mormon family (but apparently is not a Mormon himself).  So those of us who don't like their religion may decide to boycott them too.  However, I'm not that silly.  I use the Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Familysearch website all the time.

I guess not giving money to someone who's actively trying to destroy a cause I believe in is silly now? Whatever. I think y'all are letting your fandom cloud your reason-if Magma sucked I don't think this would even be an issue-but I'm not holding it against you all and I hope you'll eventually stop holding MY decision against me. 

James wrote: Robert Wyatt was a member of the British Communist Party.  That does not mean he necessarily supported Stalin, Mao or Pot.  Those are just bad versions of Communism.

Holding a machine pistol in your hands does not signify peaceful intents.

But you are right. But my whole point is that there is far more evidence linking Robert Wyatt to Pol Pot, Mao and Stalin than there is evidence linking Vander to Adolf Hitler and his odious regime.   

In short, besides of marking that we all dislike genocides and those who has committed them, this thread becomes pointless. There is rumors about everyone. Even rumors that James really a king-penguin.

 I am not boycotting Robert Wyatt and I am not boycotting Magma either. Neither am I boycotting Knut Hamsun either. Neither do I have any intentions to do that either. And I am most certainly not boycotting anyone based on rumors or hearsay.

I am though boycotting, and warning others about public appearances where Stalin and Hitler apologists gets the opportunity to Blenda-white wash their heroes. There is people who are still blankly refusing to withdraw their support for Hitler, Pol Pot and Mao. I am blankly refusing to work with these guys on any of my literature projects and/or give them any credibility whatsoever. And that boycott is the only reason why I have yet to put any of my projects in a book store. 

 

Edited by toroddfuglesteg - September 10 2010 at 02:12

40footwolf.

I am not agressive. If I should had boycotted anyone and anything based on rumors, like you are suggesting I should do, I would had starved to death by now unless I wanted to live of hunting and eating foxes and seagulls. All super market and grocery shops are accused of this and that odious thing. So is the butchers. Not to mention farmers. 

You cannot and you shall not base decisions which may deprive others of their living (and send them to a life on the streets) on rumors and rumors alone. In particular in this day and age when the internet gives voices to people with dubious intentions. 

Your position here, which is voicing views which is likely to deprive another human being for his means of living based on unverifiable rumors and hearsay, is in fact in the same moral bracket as the one you are accusing Vander of. What you are doing here is in fact fascism by another word. 

 

Edited by toroddfuglesteg - September 10 2010 at 02:26

Is he not allowed to make a living then? 

He makes music (none of which really suggests he's a Fascist).  He's not making money by having Nazi-rallies, pamphleting, writing Fascist-propaganda.

Albert Speer was an Architect.  He was a member of the Nazi Party.  He also happened to survive beyond the Nuremberg trials.  Would you boycott visiting all his buildings if he was still alive today?

Would you have avoided Tempelhof because it's rebuilt terminal was built for the NSDAP?

There's Fascism, Communism and other so-called bad things around us even now.  You cannot avoid it all.

Live with it.


Edited by James - September 10 2010 at 02:27