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terramystic
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Posted: October 21 2014 at 14:33 |
Saperlipopette! wrote:
As Horizon more or less says - its more likely that jus like SB and TFK themselves, most other retroproggers look to the pioneering 70's bands an not their cheap imitations. |
I wouldn't call SB and TFK cheap imitations. Rather updated 70's sound.
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terramystic
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Posted: October 21 2014 at 14:36 |
Saperlipopette! wrote:
Can you name ten bands on PA influenced by Kansas? |
Proto Kaw, Neal Morse, Salem Hill, Enchant, Cryptic
Vision, Magellan, Dream Theater, Symphony X, Vanden Plas, Styx ...
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JeanFrame
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Posted: October 21 2014 at 14:36 |
interesting list, but what about 1-2-3/Clouds, the band who influenced these bands in the first place?
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Horizons
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Posted: October 21 2014 at 16:36 |
terramystic wrote:
Saperlipopette! wrote:
Can you name ten bands on PA influenced by Kansas? |
Proto Kaw, Neal Morse, Salem Hill, Enchant, Cryptic
Vision, Magellan, Dream Theater, Symphony X, Vanden Plas, Styx ...
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I'm just poking fun - but you do realize Proto Kaw led to Kansas? They reformed decades later but i don't see that as a true example.
So only 9!
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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kenethlevine
Special Collaborator
Prog-Folk Team
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Posted: October 21 2014 at 17:35 |
Saperlipopette! wrote:
I focus more on lasting influence how popular (some of them once were). Removed ten and replaced them with ten others:
King Crimson Pink Floyd KRAFTWERK FRANK ZAPPA Magma Moody Blues Genesis Rush GODSPEED YOU! BLACK EMPEROR Jethro Tull Yes Dream Theater (unfortunately) SOFT MACHINE TANGERINE DREAM HENRY COW TORTOISE MR BUNGLE Gong Van der Graaf Generator ELP Anglagard PFM Camel Marillion Gentle Giant No real influence of importance on other bands: Kansas, Spock's Beard, Flower Kings, Nektar, UK, Strawbs, Renaissance, Transatlantic, , Banco, Focus |
can't agree about Renaissance especially - many minor group were influenced by them musically and in the Haslam vocals. I can think of at least a couple heavily influenced by Strawbs, UK and Focus. Now Nektar, not so sure
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: October 21 2014 at 20:19 |
^^^ Are there really bands with a Renaissance-like sound? Maybe some of those Japanese outfits? Can you mention the ones you're thinking of? Because I have never felt it in Karnataka, Magenta or Mostly Autumn who all had more elements of the sound of PF/Yes/Genesis IMO. In fact not even in October Project. Annie Haslam may have influenced other female singers to perform in prog rock bands, yes.
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kenethlevine
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Posted: October 21 2014 at 22:16 |
rogerthat wrote:
^^^ Are there really bands with a Renaissance-like sound? Maybe some of those Japanese outfits? Can you mention the ones you're thinking of? Because I have never felt it in Karnataka, Magenta or Mostly Autumn who all had more elements of the sound of PF/Yes/Genesis IMO. In fact not even in October Project. Annie Haslam may have influenced other female singers to perform in prog rock bands, yes. |
yeah I was actually thinking of Vermilion Sands and the related group whose name escapes me. Recently was listening to fine album by Quebecois group ELIPHASZ which liberally quoted two Renaissance songs in its melodies - "Kiev" and "Kindness at the End". AMENOPHIS pilfers a passage from "A Song for All Seasons" on their self titled album. I know the latter might have itself been stolen by REnaissance from some penniless deceased composer but it probably still came to AMENOPHIS via RENAISSANCE. Brazilian one-off ARION seems influenced by both versions of RENAISSANCE, as does 1970s German band REBEKKA, particularly their album "Phoenix". Then there's CAROLE OF HARVEST, more folky than Renaissance but the voclaist must have listened to Annie. Spanish group SNOWDONIA are another. I even think the GORDON GILTRAP - OLIVER WAKEMAN recent collaboration has some Renaissance sounding material. I'm sure there are more. The thing is, RENAISSANCE were well known enough to have cast some influence, since most of these bands had probably heard them. With some obscure bands, similarities to other bands might be due to common ancestry rather than direct influence
Edited by kenethlevine - October 21 2014 at 22:18
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: October 22 2014 at 01:10 |
rogerthat wrote:
^^^ Are there really bands with a Renaissance-like sound? Maybe some of those Japanese outfits? Can you mention the ones you're thinking of? Because I have never felt it in Karnataka, Magenta or Mostly Autumn who all had more elements of the sound of PF/Yes/Genesis IMO. In fact not even in October Project. Annie Haslam may have influenced other female singers to perform in prog rock bands, yes. |
and also Sonja Kristina
Kansas are also mentioned as a band with 'no influence' but Glass Hammer have clearly incorporated elements of the Kansas sound with the Vioia and Violin on one or two albums so that statement is not true. I'm sure their must also be other symph prog bands from the USA that would cite Kansas as an influence.
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akamaisondufromage
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Posted: October 22 2014 at 02:21 |
Hawkwind - one of the most influential bands on PA
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Help me I'm falling!
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terramystic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
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Posted: October 22 2014 at 05:34 |
Horizons wrote:
terramystic wrote:
Saperlipopette! wrote:
Can you name ten bands on PA influenced by Kansas? |
Proto Kaw, Neal Morse, Salem Hill, Enchant, Cryptic
Vision, Magellan, Dream Theater, Symphony X, Vanden Plas, Styx ...
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I'm just poking fun - but you do realize Proto Kaw led to Kansas? They reformed decades later but i don't see that as a true example.
So only 9! |
OK. If PK doesn't count - someone mentioned Glass Hammer.
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kenethlevine
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Posted: October 22 2014 at 09:02 |
I've noticed it seems a put down of artists to say they haven't really influenced anyone, but honestly, how could any well known band with hundreds of thousands if not millions of fans NOT have influenced anyone? Also, it might be to a band's credit that it's hard to find followers, since it suggests their sound was a bit hard to duplicate, or could not be pigeon holed.
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rogerthat
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Posted: October 22 2014 at 09:58 |
richardh wrote:
Kansas are also mentioned as a band with 'no influence' but Glass Hammer have clearly incorporated elements of the Kansas sound with the Vioia and Violin on one or two albums so that statement is not true. I'm sure their must also be other symph prog bands from the USA that would cite Kansas as an influence. |
Yes, and as somebody else mentioned, DT themselves are influenced by Kansas. It's much more noticeable in Symphony X, especially in tracks like Accolade. I would not however place their influence above that of Kraftwerk or, for that matter, on par with the big prog rock bands of the first wave viz. PF, KC, Yes, Genesis, JT, ELP. Needless to say, it's unfair to say they have no influence. I think any band of reasonable repute and with a reasonably distinct sound would exert some measure of influence.
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Kashmir75
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Posted: October 25 2014 at 23:58 |
I'm only going to rank the influence of bands I have listened to :P
King Crimson Pink Floyd YES Genesis ELP Jethro Tull Dream Theater Camel Caravan Porcupine Tree Van der Graaf Generator Gentle Giant Kansas Focus Moody Blues Spock's Beard Transatlantic Marillion
Most of the neo prog bands are at the bottom, because they did not so much influence anyone themselves, as they were influenced by 70s progressive rock
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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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Prog_Traveller
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Posted: October 26 2014 at 00:21 |
kenethlevine wrote:
I've noticed it seems a put down of artists to say they haven't really influenced anyone, but honestly, how could any well known band with hundreds of thousands if not millions of fans NOT have influenced anyone? Also, it might be to a band's credit that it's hard to find followers, since it suggests their sound was a bit hard to duplicate, or could not be pigeon holed. |
Exactly. This is why my original intention was for it to be as much about over all popularity (in the prog world)than about influence. Some people ran away with what I had in mind and started to mention bands that I(and many others)would not consider prog and imo do not have a big influence among the fans of traditional prog and what has typically been considered prog. Gentle Giant were a band that were not easily duplicated and had their own sound but were still very popular in the prog world. But to assume something has to be super original or have their own sound in order to be considered influential or important or popular is just silly. Marillion for example are one of the biggest post seventies prog bands and yet they could easily be accused of not having much of their own sound especially in the early days when they were considered by many critics to be copying the PG era Genesis sound.
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Saperlipopette!
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Joined: December 20 2010
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Posted: October 26 2014 at 03:09 |
richardh wrote:
Kansas are also mentioned as a band with 'no influence' but Glass Hammer have clearly incorporated elements of the Kansas sound with the Vioia and Violin on one or two albums so that statement is not true. I'm sure their must also be other symph prog bands from the USA that would cite Kansas as an influence. |
I think I wrote "no influence of real importance" which is exactly what I meant. Some bands pave way for myriads of bands (and continue to do so) and create whole genres, such as King Crimson and Pink Floyd while others have a sound on their viola and violin that other bands incorporate. I love Banco but to me its obvious that their three fantastic first albums hasn't been influential in any important way. They were too late in the game and didn't bring anything new to the table when they arrived. But it still great music and many people like them. While Goblin probably weren't the biggest selling italian band (but like Tortoise they sold lots more albums than all the retroproggers do) there's little doubt that its their inventive approach from their 70's Argento OST's that are the most influential. The bands we discover after we''ve heard all the pioneering bands in all the different kinds of progressive music when we look for more of the stuff in a similar vein, are logically less influential than the bands that were the true originators.
Edited by Saperlipopette! - October 26 2014 at 03:53
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kenethlevine
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Posted: October 26 2014 at 18:07 |
just happened to see Renaissance in Philadelphia last night - great show! And who should appear on the stage for one of the encores but Mary Fahl of OCTOBER PROJECT, claiming to have been swept away by Annie and Renaissance as a sullen 16 year old.
kenethlevine wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
^^^ Are there really bands with a Renaissance-like sound? Maybe some of those Japanese outfits? Can you mention the ones you're thinking of? Because I have never felt it in Karnataka, Magenta or Mostly Autumn who all had more elements of the sound of PF/Yes/Genesis IMO. In fact not even in October Project. Annie Haslam may have influenced other female singers to perform in prog rock bands, yes. |
yeah I was actually thinking of Vermilion Sands and the related group whose name escapes me. Recently was listening to fine album by Quebecois group ELIPHASZ which liberally quoted two Renaissance songs in its melodies - "Kiev" and "Kindness at the End". AMENOPHIS pilfers a passage from "A Song for All Seasons" on their self titled album. I know the latter might have itself been stolen by REnaissance from some penniless deceased composer but it probably still came to AMENOPHIS via RENAISSANCE. Brazilian one-off ARION seems influenced by both versions of RENAISSANCE, as does 1970s German band REBEKKA, particularly their album "Phoenix". Then there's CAROLE OF HARVEST, more folky than Renaissance but the voclaist must have listened to Annie. Spanish group SNOWDONIA are another. I even think the GORDON GILTRAP - OLIVER WAKEMAN recent collaboration has some Renaissance sounding material. I'm sure there are more. The thing is, RENAISSANCE were well known enough to have cast some influence, since most of these bands had probably heard them. With some obscure bands, similarities to other bands might be due to common ancestry rather than direct influence
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: October 26 2014 at 19:41 |
Yeah, apparently they are friends. They had met up a month or couple of months back or so and Annie wondered aloud on her FB page whether this could be the start of something. Turns out it was. Heard Mary sang a duet with Annie on I Think of You?
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Prog_Traveller
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Posted: October 26 2014 at 22:54 |
I'm not overly familiar with October Project but not surprised Mary is a fan. I can see some similarities. I saw this announcement over on PE but even though I'm in the general area I didn't make it over there last night. I did however see Renaissance at the final Nearfest and thought they were great. I actually met Annie once at one of her art exhibits a few years ago(she lives in the area). I didn't know she was friends with Mary Fahl though.
Edited by Prog_Traveller - October 26 2014 at 22:55
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: October 27 2014 at 09:03 |
It is only guesswork on my part. But as per the FB post of Annie's that I referred to, she had dinner with Mary and her husband, probably at their place. That sounds rather intimate for people who are not friends, so I made the inference. And as I googled up that FB post to verify, I found that Mary had also shared some earlier post of Annie's so it seems to be a pretty reasonable conclusion to make that they would be friends. What I can say with more certainty is Mary is a huge fan of Annie's as kennethlevine's above comment also confirms and Annie too has praised Mary Fahl as an incredible singer in a couple of interviews. I am glad they performed together and maybe Mary can relieve Annie of her duties as the Renaissance woman eventually (or would it be heresie to suggest that?).
Edited by rogerthat - October 27 2014 at 09:10
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kenethlevine
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Posted: October 27 2014 at 10:26 |
yes they did "I think of you", not one of my favorite Renaissance songs. I would have preferred they tackle the more duet ready "Closer than Yesterday". The band did an amazing version of Mother Russia, and the Ashes are Burning encore rivalled the bar-setting version on "Live at Carnegie Hall", with plenty of differences. The newer material generally just doesn't measure up, especially from an energy perspective, with the live versions sounding as tired as they do on the CD, but "Grandine Il Vento" is pretty good, especially its very emotive ending showing Annie at her best, and "The Mystic and The Muse" is definitely in the old style. They opened with a great rendition of "Prologue". I was ecstatic to hear "Opening Out" and "Day of the Dreamer" back to back but felt Annie wasn't high enough in the mix. Maybe I should cut and paste this to the concert reviews page.
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