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Topic ClosedThe Most Influential

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Poll Question: Who's the most influential artist here on PA?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
11 [15.49%]
4 [5.63%]
15 [21.13%]
1 [1.41%]
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2 [2.82%]
0 [0.00%]
7 [9.86%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [1.41%]
1 [1.41%]
17 [23.94%]
3 [4.23%]
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2 [2.82%]
5 [7.04%]
1 [1.41%]
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1 [1.41%]
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This topic is closed, no new votes accepted

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Barbu View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2014 at 00:46
Jimi, of course.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2014 at 08:46
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Negative. I will state again that there are many  guitarists that I know who have obvious influences that does not reflect on their band's music. That's the whole point. Band's generally want to have their own originality. The exception to this was the Neo onslaught of the mid eighties and there are no Neo prog band's that I feel are worth the time of day except for Marillion who was able to transcend their Genesis cloning.

You are free to experience music your way and I'm free to experience it my way and I've never been the worse for it.

Oh yes, each to his own and all that.  Fine.  What I don't get is just because Mr.Steve doesn't think so, one of the most influential bands in rock music did not influence more than a couple of bands?  The band with some of the most iconic rock albums does not have enough originality for other bands to derive from it?  You have to really make a stronger case than that to back up your statement before you clam up.  
Here's clue RT, the Neo prog bands were influenced by Genesis.There was not a rush of PF clones at that time or any other. Do you need more exposition than that?

Not talking a lot does not equate with 'claming up'. It just reflects my tiredness from the years of talking to people who see what they want to see, instead of hearing what they should hear.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2014 at 09:04
And exactly how many clones of KC are there, out there?  Or of Rush?  There are bands that derive a lot of their elements from these two but most of them have proceeded to interpret such influence in their own way rather than outright imitation. 
So are you saying that spawning clones is the only kind of influence that counts?  If that is the case, it is not surprising that you would get tired of such discussions because you want to frame the understanding of influence only under your own terms and don't want to concede room for a different view.  And as for seeing what one wants to see, I think if you cannot hear Mother in the opening verse of Silent Lucidity, then it is you who first need to heed your own advice.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2014 at 09:11
Supertramp, Kate Bush, U2, Tears for Fears all these acts to name a very few were undeniably influenced by Floyd.  A band that influenced some extremely popular acts and you seriously want to know if they influenced ANY bands?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2014 at 02:43
Quite obviously DSOTM will have made an impression on many artists. Steve Wilson is someone else that could be mentioned. The problem for me is that Floyd were very good at combining a lot of common elements rather than creating amazingly original music imo. I like them but they were never as interesting as other prog bands of the time. So Supertramp have been influenced by Floyd but how would you ever know? What Supertramp song screams ''Floyd'' or for that matter any of those other artists listed. Perhaps we can just list anyone that's heard DSOTM which is everyone!

Edited by richardh - October 25 2014 at 02:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2014 at 04:03
Supertramp - Gone Hollywood, clearly influenced by Floyd's art/theatre rock phase.  

Kate Bush - Breathing.  It could even be a case where the song 're-influenced' Floyd in turn, because Breathing shares uncanny similarities with High Hopes.   Especially the chords on that last chorus/coda, it's a lot like the chords on "The grass was greener...".

Tears for Fears - Sowing the Seeds of Love. Even the very vocal delivery is a lot like Waters.  

In the case of U2, Edge himself has cited Dogs as a key influence so I need go no further.  

I think personal preferences are clouding judgment here.  Floyd may not have been as musical as some of the out and out prog rock acts.  But that does not and never has had a bearing on whether any artist's music could influence that of others.  Nobody said Whitney's power ballad format was interesting.  But it is parroted endlessly by contestants on music reality shows.  Commercial success itself is usually a good enough incentive to want to derive/borrow/imitate, as applicable.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2014 at 04:05
And I would say the fact that Gone Hollywood may not instantly sound like a Floyd-clone song is simply down to Supertramp's originality.  Likewise in the case of Kate Bush.  They were extremely creative songwriters in their own right, unlike the vast swathes of retro prog bands who only want to faithfully imitate the 70s bands. So obviously they wanted to make their own voice heard, rising above their influences.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2014 at 07:48
Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

I'll be around, unless I buy it of course or Raff finally gets tired of my bullsh*t and sticks with that knife she always threatens me with (gotta love Italians!) haha, but the organizers are very good about putting out the information. It has been the Columbus Day weekend the last two years and am quite sure it will be again next year.
 
Shocked Mamma mia... hahah , I know pretty well what you are talking about, my mother is italian's daughter.Embarrassed 


haha.  Yeah. I do love my love pain and pleasure. My ex-wife was a fiery red head .. so what did I do to myself when that gradual 10 year destruction of my self-esteem and will to live finally ended... immediately fall madly in love with a fiery Italian woman. 

Never a dull moment. Nothing bores me more than docile people with no fire or passion.

Fortunately Raff understands and accepts me for what I am, and my many substantial faults like me ex never could. Not a day passes, that I am not thankful for fate or whatever God, call him Ivan Melgar-Morey or call him whatever, that brought us together from very different backgrounds, cultures, and places from opposite ends of the earth. Heart




Edited by micky - October 25 2014 at 07:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2014 at 08:33
i think Moody Blues and Procol Harum influence is more prescent in Supertramps sound then Floyd, though it is there, and Gone Hollywood and theatrisme, is not solaly Floyds invention in rock, many bands had that.

Edited by Icarium - October 25 2014 at 08:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2014 at 09:09
Gone Hollywood is just one example.  In Brother Bound, it's very obvious.  And that's before we get to the Gilmour solo.  I could go on and on.  I really would not like to spend more time enumerating examples.  There are plenty of them for people who can listen with an open mind to note. For the rest, I don't think my mentioning them is going to make any difference, so why dwell any further on this.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2014 at 11:09
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

And exactly how many clones of KC are there, out there?  Or of Rush?  There are bands that derive a lot of their elements from these two but most of them have proceeded to interpret such influence in their own way rather than outright imitation. 
So are you saying that spawning clones is the only kind of influence that counts?  If that is the case, it is not surprising that you would get tired of such discussions because you want to frame the understanding of influence only under your own terms and don't want to concede room for a different view.  And as for seeing what one wants to see, I think if you cannot hear Mother in the opening verse of Silent Lucidity, then it is you who first need to heed your own advice.
I knew this was coming as I said that I've been at this for a while.
 
First off, like most people, you confuse influence with imitation. They are not the same thing. Silent Lucidity is a facsimile of a Pink Floyd song, and that is not influence. Michael Kaman's score should helped to give that away along with the myriad of Floyd recording tricks.
 
The rest of the album, btw, owes no 'influence' to Floyd. The following song's are Queensryche's alone: Best that I Can, The Thin Line, Jet City Woman, Della Brown, Another Rainy Night, Empire, Resistance and Hand On Heart. 
 
Are your starting to realize the difference between influence and imitation?


Edited by SteveG - October 25 2014 at 11:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2014 at 17:22
And difference between influence and Copy is important too.
I think we have different "Influence Definition". Some guys think influence equal to Copy and Clone BUT this isn't correct IMO. I think Copy or Clone music is "Un-valuable " and I don't want to talk about these kind of music. Influence is far from Copy. Maybe you can't recognize all influences parts or elements because they (influences parts or ...) may hide in deeper layer of one song. You can't say : I can find all of influences parts and I have more abilities than everyone! 
First we must have same definition about Influence then we can discuss about that. I saw this "Misunderstanding" and hot discussion  in this thread about that. This kind of discussion never have a good results.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2014 at 18:40
Miles Davis, by miles. How can anybody argue otherwise?
I am currently digging:

Hawkwind, Rare Bird, Gong, Tangerine Dream, Khan, Iron Butterfly, and all things canterbury and hard-psych. I also love jazz!

Please drop me a message with album suggestions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2014 at 20:26
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

I'll be around, unless I buy it of course or Raff finally gets tired of my bullsh*t and sticks with that knife she always threatens me with (gotta love Italians!) haha, but the organizers are very good about putting out the information. It has been the Columbus Day weekend the last two years and am quite sure it will be again next year.
 
Shocked Mamma mia... hahah , I know pretty well what you are talking about, my mother is italian's daughter.Embarrassed 


haha.  Yeah. I do love my love pain and pleasure. My ex-wife was a fiery red head .. so what did I do to myself when that gradual 10 year destruction of my self-esteem and will to live finally ended... immediately fall madly in love with a fiery Italian woman. 

Never a dull moment. Nothing bores me more than docile people with no fire or passion.

Fortunately Raff understands and accepts me for what I am, and my many substantial faults like me ex never could. Not a day passes, that I am not thankful for fate or whatever God, call him Ivan Melgar-Morey or call him whatever, that brought us together from very different backgrounds, cultures, and places from opposite ends of the earth. Heart


 
Hey Micky it's very interesting what you are telling me, I believe too that some of the important facts of our lifes are truly tied to our fate, seeming to happen especially in crucial moments. By the way I'm married with an argentinian beauty of great character, well not from such an opposite end of the earth hahah, that's the power of love isn't it? Wink


"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2014 at 21:30
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I knew this was coming as I said that I've been at this for a while.
 
First off, like most people, you confuse influence with imitation. They are not the same thing. Silent Lucidity is a facsimile of a Pink Floyd song, and that is not influence. Michael Kaman's score should helped to give that away along with the myriad of Floyd recording tricks.
 
The rest of the album, btw, owes no 'influence' to Floyd. The following song's are Queensryche's alone: Best that I Can, The Thin Line, Jet City Woman, Della Brown, Another Rainy Night, Empire, Resistance and Hand On Heart. 
 
Are your starting to realize the difference between influence and imitation?

Confusion?  No, I don't think there is any confusion, neither from your side nor mine.  What I am quite sure of is you are pretty adept at shifting the goalposts as per your convenience.  If it's just influence you are interested in, I have already established that a few pages now.  I believe it was you who introduced the wrinkle that there are no Floyd-clones like Genesis-neo prog (I will come to this point a bit later).  And it was in this context I pointed out slabs of music that are very Floyd-like even in songs of bands that would not count Floyd as a dominant influence.  Er, I am afraid you first need to decide whether your original question was really one of sincere inquiry or are you just trying to manufacture arguments that 'help' you conclude that no influence is significant as long as the source is Floyd?

 

Anyhow, we'll start with Silent Lucidity.  First off, no, it's not a facsimile.  The song actually has metal riffs in the background during the spoken voice bit so that's not like Floyd at all.  And Tate's delivery is pure metal again, especially once he gets out of the low pitched intro.  A facsimile would have to be an exact or near exact facsimile.  You don’t have to take my word for it as far as the meaning of the word goes.  According to the Merriam Webster dictionary as well, facsimile is “an exact copy”.  You may shift goal posts if you wish (though that makes the discussion process much more difficult) but you cannot change the plain meaning of English words. 

 

Secondly, it has nothing to do with Kamen’s arrangements or Floyd’s recording tricks.  I cited the VOCAL MELODY of the opening verse, which is very similar in places to Mother.  As far as I know, note-similarity in vocal melodies cannot be attributed to arrangements or recording tricks.  I am also aware that the band as such is not strongly influenced by Floyd and, though Empire is a pretty boring album, I too do not recall any Floyd like moments in say Jet City Woman.  Here’s the thing.  Nearly everybody has heard a Floyd album at one point or the other.  With the result that there is a deeply embedded Floyd influence that creeps in at some point or the other in the work of many, many bands.  My friend is a prog rock musician and not a particularly big fan of Floyd though he does respect them and he has, by self admission, been influenced by Floyd in writing some guitar parts.  Prog rockers, I find, think influence is just structure or arrangements.  That is a very prog, and narrow, point of view.  There’s also the meat: the vocal melodies, the riffs, the chords, that is, the parts.  While Floyd may not have stuck to definite patterns in the way they develop music owing to their flexibility, there are definite patterns in their melodies, riffs and chords that Floyd fans can certainly recognise immediately as the signature of their band.  Some such Floyd fans, serious or casual, go on to become musicians and traces of Floyd can be found in their music.  To argue that such influence is insignificant would be disingenuous in the extreme because that would tantamount to saying that significant influence of Beatles is measured only by those bands that cloned them and not by those who were inspired by them to make music.  And by the way, to reiterate, Silent Lucidity is not a one off.  I can go on with many, many such examples of various bands from a variety of genres.  You may pretend that is not influence if it suits you, but I shall recognise it quickly for what it is: a pretence and no more.

 

Moving on to the question of what genres Floyd spawned, I think it would take a strong case of musical blindness to deny their role in the development of pyschedelic and space rock and, through their Barrett albums, on Krautrock as well.  Sure, they share that honour with Doors, Jefferson Airplane and to a lesser extent Beatles (Revolver), Hawkwind following a bit later.  It is not exclusive, but they are one of the most significant influences on a vast majority of bands in these genres.  And this is where I return to neo prog and Genesis.  I am quite familiar with Marillion, IQ and Twelfth Night, three of the most important neo prog bands.  None of these bands would count only Genesis as their source material.  Twelfth Night actually have a bit of NWOBHM (which can also be heard in Marillion’s Garden Party track) going on.  Marillion and IQ are both also influenced by Rush.  Pink Floyd also rears its ugly head again when it comes to Marillion and not just in the form of Gilmour leads.  The riffs of Brick in the Wall are evoked when guitar takes over in Assassing.  So the claim that each and every neo prog band is just a Genesis clone is mostly a figment of the fertile imagination of Genesis fanatics and little more. One Grendel does not a Genesis clone make.

 

Again, that was just one example with respect to Marillion. So don’t rush to pretend you’ve got to just refute that to negate the argument.  I cannot and will not spend time enumerating each and every such instance, so do not insult my intelligence.  As it is you who wish to claim that Floyd ‘s influence is not so significant, going against conventional wisdom which holds that Floyd is one of the most influential rock bands of all times, it is really up to you to explain why.  And if you don’t have any interest in doing so, that is your choice.  But in that case do remember that when you point fingers at people saying they only hear what they want to hear, three of your own point right back at you.  Such claims are neither very convincing nor very pleasant.  As far as I am concerned, Floyd's influence on music as a whole is far deeper than that of any prog rock band save Kraftwerk.  Um, Miles Davis isn't really a prog ROCK artist but yeah, him too.  And I would go so far as to state that only prog rock fans could possibly believe that is not the case.



Edited by rogerthat - October 25 2014 at 21:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2014 at 03:48
Not that you need any help Rogerthat. But I gotta say that SteveG; if you read your whole dispute with this smart fellow here you should start blushing. The way you're discussing, taking weak arguments originating from your own posts twisting it into something that can be used to your advantage against your opponent isn't very impressive.

And btw: Pink Floyd not really influential? Are you kidding me? 1967: Interstellar Overdrive (+Astronomy Domine) - 10 minutes that along with 1968's Saucerful and a couple of more PF-tunes pretty much singlehandedly kickstarted Krautrock, Space Rock, German Kosmishe, Psychedelic Rock... All this before we've even gotten to Echoes and Dark Side of the Moon.

Btw: I'm as surprised as Guldbamsen that Genesis is actually in the lead. Trespass simply wouldn't exist in the shape it does (neither would Yes Album, Gentle Giant or ELP) without KC's number one in the UK-album - In The Court of the Crimson King.            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2014 at 04:31
and yet no one has mentioned The Nice. There are plenty of KC and Pink Floyd fanboys to challenge the Genesis fanboys on this site. How many are musicians and how many actually know what they are talking about? John Wetton was interviewed recently and pretty much gave all the credit to Zappa for kick starting the prog scene. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2014 at 04:35
I personally would not dispute the influence of Nice or Zappa on prog rock. I have not claimed in any case that Floyd alone originated prog rock.  I am not foolish enough to make such outrageous claims, sorry.  I actually like KC more than Floyd and Genesis about the same, but thanks for assuming I am a Floyd fanboy (now don't pretend you didn't).  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2014 at 05:37
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

and yet no one has mentioned The Nice. There are plenty of KC and Pink Floyd fanboys to challenge the Genesis fanboys on this site. How many are musicians and how many actually know what they are talking about? John Wetton was interviewed recently and pretty much gave all the credit to Zappa for kick starting the prog scene. 
You, me, Wetton... we all have our blind spots and preferences. When I bought the second, third and fourth Nice album (found them all really cheap) I was (like many curious progfans) very dissapointed. I also felt like I was listening to a musical dead end. I wasn't around when all this happened so I can't really claim to know how it played out. But there's little doubt that KC's 1969-debut, containing two or perhaps even three or four songs that is echoed in literally countless compositions by progbands all over the world made a much bigger splash than anything from the albums by The Nice. On top of that Fripp reinvented KC into something darker, jazzier, dissonant and more experimental that young belgian/french folks coming out of conservatories transformed into Chamber Rock, Avant Prog (or R.I.O if you will. I know you know all about this).

I agree that Zappa kick started something that "everyone" was listening to and inspired by. But In the Court... is nevertheless a unique starting point and a guiding star to what came after labeled Progressive Rock.       

-sorry for a couple of not so elegant sentences and such. english is not my first language.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2014 at 05:51
It's an old story. One can say that Beethoven started it all and Orff invented the Zeuhl. The first percussionist was likely a Neanderthal who may have invented the growling, too. It depends on when you put the starting point. Good spot on The Nice, anyway.
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