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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2014 at 17:59
Well the mmf-11.1 (my dream table) has a built in speed controller, so I would not need a stand alone version, enhancing the aesthetic quality of all in one.

I have never heard one of these custom tables....but they sure look rather neat.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2014 at 19:30
^ Stumptable? They could have the platter from wood as well .. would be cool to see the annual rings swirl :)

I have just visited Amazon to look up the mmf-11.1, and its $4.5K tag stared at me. Looks like they add another grand for each extra plinth layer :)  

Also noticed the dust cover is huge - is it because it goes all the way down instead of sitting on the (upper) plinth's rim?





 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2014 at 20:46
If you inspect closely, the wood custom table is a modified Rega table. the platter, sub platter, motor housing and arm are all Rega.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2014 at 21:02
And correct the mmf-11.1 has a list of $4K...but there is only one pc of gear in my system where I paid list price..everything is negotiable! Its my hobby and I save up for my gear, all paid in cash nothing financed or credit cards.
I'd rather this, than have a hobby where the Harley-Davidson I wanted costs $35K....Shocked

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2014 at 00:59
I know there is no accounting for taste, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that, but that burr plinth is just butt ugly... it looks like you really can polish a turd.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2014 at 04:22
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

that burr plinth is just butt ugly 

Wait until someone comes up with a dissertation on the superior vibration-canceling properties of this thing Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2014 at 09:31
Maybe they ARE petrified turds, polished up dino krapp.......Museum quality LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2014 at 09:38
A very custom table.......looks like a VPI motor and acrylic platter
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2014 at 05:20
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

A very custom table.......looks like a VPI motor and acrylic platter
 
ApproveThat's slightly better in that it is aesthetically pleasing to the eye with no extraneous "decoration"  Wink

I am often criticised for being overly technical when I discuss the 'aesthetics' of hifi design and for steering the discussion towards the technicalities of the design rather than the look of it, but for me hifi is technical and that goes hand-in-hand with the aesthetics. When the 'inner-workings' of are put on display that is purely for aesthetic purposes, all that technical engineering could be hidden away within the plinth so no one could see it - you don't need to see the dual flywheels and pulleys for them to do their job, you don't need to see the isolation cones for them to perform the task they are designed to do. In turntable design that technical engineering and the 'inner-workings' are the aesthetic, it is put on display so we can appreciate the engineering involved and not just to admire the craftsmanship of the build. There is an adage in fine-dining that says we eat with out eyes, and this has a parallel in hifi design - we hear with our eyes.

The thing with aesthetics, aside from beauty being in the eye of the beholder, is that the look of something conveys a pleasurable feeling, and for lovers of hifi that means it has to look like it can do the job, even if it cannot. To this end when we see something that has lots of engineering and has a lot of mass in the plinth and platter we think it is doing the right job and that is aesthetically pleasing in its own right. People like chunky, heavy turntables because it feels right - a big mass is harder to vibrate than a light one so therefore it must be "a good thing" because the one thing that separates a good turntable from a so-so turntable is the lack of vibration (what we used to call "rumble" back in the days of steam). But when you analyse the system with a technical eye, looking at the sources of those vibrations and the paths they take through the various components it tells a different story. Also a big chunky platter has lots of mass so therefore has lots of inertia which means it is harder to alter its speed, improving speed stability, but that comes at a price, and that price is increased vibration. 

The thickness of the platter in that turntable above is pure aesthetics of course, with the purpose of the VPI dual-flywheel is to increase the overall mass (and inertia) of the spinning parts so thus improves torque and speed-stability and to therefore reduces the mass of the platter while maintaining the overall inertia in the drive-system. This enables the platter to be as light as possible so less strain and wear is present in the spindle bearing and so less vibration is "held" in the platter itself. The triple belts give that aesthetic feeling that all the motor torque is being transferred to the platter, and fortunately that is true from a technical aspect too (so even I am aesthetically pleased to see them there).

The height of the plinth is also more for aesthetics than of any practical value, the mass of that much timber creates an immoveable object to any vibration created in the spindle bearing so nothing is transferred through the mass into the isolation cones and (unfortunately) it remains in the platter to be picked-up by the tone arm. As I said earlier, it is harder to vibrate a large mass than it is a small one, so any bearing noise now takes the path of least resistance, and that is into the platter.

To see what I mean, compare that to the Music Hall MMF-11.1 Argonaut showed on the previous page, here in side view so you can see the plinth in detail:
music hall audio mmf 11.1 turntable

So rather than have one heavy base, the MMF-11.1 has four lightweight plinths stacked one on top of the other - the tonearm is mounted on the top plinth, isolated from the spindle-bearing that is mounted on the second from top plinth and the motor and flywheels are mounted on the bottom plinth, with the third intermediate plinth providing complete decoupling of vibration from the motor to the platter. The isolation in each plinth is now accomplished by Sorbothane pads to prevent vibration from being transmitted between each plinth, whereas cones would transfer the vibration from one to the other and defeat the object. To a technical-eye this is more aesthetically pleasing because each component part is there for a valid technical reason and that can only add to the aesthetic.




Edited by Dean - October 28 2014 at 05:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2014 at 09:49
^ All makes total sense what Dean wrote above....I agree we do not need to see the guts of any gear. Take for example tube audio gear, the trend now is to design so the actual tube is towards the front of the gear and either glass or plexiglass or the like is used so the user can see the tube lit up in action, or better yet the norm is for the tubes to be 100% exposed on the top of the base.....aesthetics or eye-candy. These are cool looking though....so
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2014 at 10:26
^ I remember making amplifiers (and much more besides) just like that back in the 70s ... of course then we'd slot that open chassis into a 19" rack or a wooden or metal box, but the basic construction technique of mounting the valve (tube) bases on a sheet of bent steel chassis along with the power supply and two output transformers remains the same. Working on the principle 'if you've got it, flaunt it' I don't mind the current trend of making the chassis the final thing and foregoing the nice walnut veneered box, the only issue I have with it (and that McIntosh 275 is a good bad-example), is the valve (tube) layout is often now arranged for aesthetic looks rather than optimum circuit performance (i.e. the triodes are all in a neat single row) - but that's only a minor irritation - if I had 4000 to blow on an amp, and could do so without risk of divorce, I most surely would.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2014 at 11:16
Ha...4000 is nothing.....Try the LM-1 212 mono-block from Line Magnetic at about USD25,000.00......Certainly zero WAF (wife acceptance factor) points.....Butt ugly, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.
 
212
 
 
Although LM does make some nice gear, sound and looks...
 

501IA

 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2014 at 11:39
My first turntable was a brand I don't recall, but it had speakers attached in a fold down configuration.  My second was a Dual in a wood box frame, that was pretty cool.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2014 at 11:44
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

^ Working on the principle 'if you've got it, flaunt it' I don't mind the current trend of making the chassis the final thing and foregoing the nice walnut veneered box, the only issue I have with it (and that McIntosh 275 is a good bad-example), is the valve (tube) layout is often now arranged for aesthetic looks rather than optimum circuit performance 

There is a small technical advantage to having the tubes ("valves") and the power transformer exposed to unrestricted air movement: better natural cooling. The well-liked large tubes generate an enormous amount of heat. I had a single-ended amp with two KT-66s, and it in a couple of years gradually scorched the pine shelf 10" (250 mm) directly above it
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2014 at 12:34
Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

^ Working on the principle 'if you've got it, flaunt it' I don't mind the current trend of making the chassis the final thing and foregoing the nice walnut veneered box, the only issue I have with it (and that McIntosh 275 is a good bad-example), is the valve (tube) layout is often now arranged for aesthetic looks rather than optimum circuit performance 

There is a small technical advantage to having the tubes ("valves") and the power transformer exposed to unrestricted air movement: better natural cooling. The well-liked large tubes generate an enormous amount of heat. I had a single-ended amp with two KT-66s, and it in a couple of years gradually scorched the pine shelf 10" (250 mm) directly above it
Yup, valves (tubes) will do that all right, but in or out of a box the result would have been the same, heat rises. The four EL34s in a Marshall head run at 100W in a confined space made from wood, I've yet to see one spontaneously combust LOL

Heat management is a design issue, it should never be an operational one, valves are designed to run hot and dissipate through convection rather than conduction, (however I have seen valves cooled through conduction but those weren't your average work-a-day KT-66s or EL34s Wink). 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2014 at 15:54
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Heat management is a design issue, it should never be an operational one, valves are designed to run hot and dissipate through convection rather than conduction,

Even a well-designed enclosure introduces a mechanical barrier; as such, it will (somewhat) restrict both convection and the ingress of ambient air. Also, heat dissipates by radiation; an enclosure - unless it's very, very black inside - would bounce back some of the heat flux, emitted by the "thermionic device". 

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 (however I have seen valves cooled through conduction but those weren't your average work-a-day KT-66s or EL34s Wink). 

Like a large magnetron?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2014 at 05:20
Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Heat management is a design issue, it should never be an operational one, valves are designed to run hot and dissipate through convection rather than conduction,

Even a well-designed enclosure introduces a mechanical barrier; as such, it will (somewhat) restrict both convection and the ingress of ambient air. Also, heat dissipates by radiation; an enclosure - unless it's very, very black inside - would bounce back some of the heat flux, emitted by the "thermionic device".
I was referring to the dissipation from the glass tube rather than the anode itself, but you are correct I should have said radiation and convection and since some of that radiant heat is conducted into the chassis then there is a degree of conduction as well, albeit to a lesser degree. 

But as I said, heat management is a design issue, if the amp is designed to work in a box then consideration of heat flow would have dealt with at the design stage, and that includes any chimney effect created by the box itself (which of course doesn't happen when the chassis is run out of the box).

Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 (however I have seen valves cooled through conduction but those weren't your average work-a-day KT-66s or EL34s Wink). 

Like a large magnetron?
Well, no. I have seen (and worked on) water-cooled magnetrons in radar equipment, but I meant high-power tetrodes and pentodes with external anodes used in high-power amps and radio transmitters.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2015 at 17:17
^ how is your super-table project moving along, Santa? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2015 at 13:42
I'm surprised no one has posted the Mitchel Gyrodeck, the one from, 'A Clockwork Orange'....!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2015 at 13:47
^ We talked about it recently on the Vinyl thread Tongue
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