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Moogtron III View Drop Down

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Posted: December 28 2014 at 08:45

micky wrote:

Camel was a nice ... harmless as well as quite generic... prog group. Both ELP and Gentle Giant can be strongly argued were both far more creative, had more classic albums as well as being considered 'mandatory and essential' bands in the roadmap to prog knowledge.

Yet here at PA's... the odd, impossible to explain, pooling of likely nearly any and all Camel fans known to man have seemingly put that group.. on par with those groups. When outside of this site, Camel is in that 2nd, 3rd or even 4th rung of groups to be discovered and appreciated. Seriously. Prog is not just a label, back then it said something about the music, it was and the great ones DID... take chances.. reaching for the stars and trying to expand what rock music can and did do.

Camel did no such thing... sure they made good albums. So did Willie Nelson...

Wille Nelson, huh? Wille Nelson has five 5-star albums on the AllMusic guide, a monument in country.

Then Camel...

Okay, I won't get started again LOL

Now, one thing about Premier, Second and Third League bands (I'm more of a soccer fan LOL

)... I admit that Gentle Giant and ELP were light years ahead in creativity than Camel. I admit that Genesis, Yes, ELP and King Crimson (who are likely to hackett the concurrence to brackets in Lima, Portland and wherever Smile

) were much, much more important for the history of prog than Camel.

But the question is: does one vote for importance for prog? Then the 'big six' (Genesis, Yes, ELP, Jethro Tull, King Crimson and Pink Floyd) should make the finales in every tournament.

Is innovation the most important thing? Then bands like Gentle Giant, Magma and Gong should get our votes.

Thing is... most of us vote with (violin sounds coming out of the air) our hearts. We like a band regardless of prog importance or innovation. We like a band because (heavy Hollywood tear jerker movies string sections) it makes a connection with us. Camel fans seem to land like a group of starlings in the friendly ( Unhappy

) PA habitat. Knowing that their beloved band is not the biggest of innovators, but boy, can they touch your... Okay, this is where the sweetness gets to much and the caries shows... But you get my point, right? Wink

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Posted: December 28 2014 at 09:32

Moogtron III wrote:

Wille Nelson, huh? Wille Nelson has five 5-star albums on the AllMusic guide, a monument in country.

Then Camel...

Okay, I won't get started again LOL

well when one can.. with quite some conviction and solid basis... that Willie Nelson was FAR more progressive artist (who shattered a bunch of very tightly held maxims in a (then) VERY conservative music genre thus rightly becoming the musical legend he is) than a very popular band here like Camel.. warning bells start to go off. For those at least for which prog rock is not the be all to end all..but one of many musical forms in which we enjoy.. for which perhaps the real appeal is the progressive nature of it, not the mere genrefication of it which became 'prog rock'. Connecting the prog dots to be considered prog, but very little progressiveness IN it. Thus what has to be called.. prog for progs sake.. or the more common term... generic prog. Definitely more pronounced in todays bands like TFK.. but perhaps Camel can be seen as the first of that group. Undeniable prog... but as progressive as my left toe.

Now, one thing about Premier, Second and Third League bands (I'm more of a soccer fan LOL

) were much, much more important for the history of prog than Camel.

To me... to deny it shows zero knowledge of the form, and even less capacity for objective thought, if I can be real blunt.

But the question is: does one vote for importance for prog? Then the 'big six' (Genesis, Yes, ELP, Jethro Tull, King Crimson and Pink Floyd) should make the finales in every tournament.

Is innovation the most important thing? Then bands like Gentle Giant, Magma and Gong should get our votes.

Oh no doubt these are popularity contests if they were indeed votes or decisions based on more objective criteria, like the website I came here from where we ranked and judged them as best as we could based on those criteria, then yes the results would be...well.. nearly the same. It is not surprising that many of its most popular bands were also its greatest, most important. ELP (and Camel ) of course are the polar opposite exceptions to that. CamELP (now that would have been a group haha) would be rout Gensis and King Crimson in any battle of the bands competition. Add what ELP actually did to Camels current popularity and you'd have a winner everytime

Thing is... most of us vote with (violin sounds coming out of the air) our hearts. We like a band regardless of prog importance or innovation.

We like a band because (heavy Hollywood tear jerker movies string sections) it makes a connection with us. Camel fans seem to land like a group of starlings in the friendly ( Unhappy

hahah. Oh I do, I doubt I made my point very clear in return but that really isn't all that important. People can and should enjoy what they want, however since 'prog fan' does and has a propensity to put himself on a pedestal of superior tastes and intellect over fans of ... Lady Gaga or god knows what else that is popular today.. it does bear mention that if one wants to view themselves that way.. then go all the way... don't just enjoy the music.. but objectively look at it.. for if one does... you just might find you might enjoy it even more.

Edited by micky - December 28 2014 at 09:41

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Nogbad_The_Bad View Drop Down

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Posted: December 28 2014 at 10:03

micky wrote:

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Floyd - KC would be a win-win for me given the unexpected demise of Univers Zero & Henry Cow

unexpected? Shocked

Quality, multiple stone cold classics, and substantial historical import means nothing on this forum. We've had plenty of examples of lesser, even mediocre bands winning as FAVORITES LOL

There is no accounting for tastes here I suppose.

My tongue was firmly in my cheek if you understand the expression.

Ian

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https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/

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Posted: December 28 2014 at 10:07

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

micky wrote:

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Floyd - KC would be a win-win for me given the unexpected demise of Univers Zero & Henry Cow

unexpected? Shocked

Quality, multiple stone cold classics, and substantial historical import means nothing on this forum. We've had plenty of examples of lesser, even mediocre bands winning as FAVORITES LOL

There is no accounting for tastes here I suppose.

My tongue was firmly in my cheek if you understand the expression.

all too well... I just don't understand it... I live, post, and die by it.

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Posted: December 28 2014 at 11:02

Early Jockey Club del Perú

Yes (-15.5) over Gong
Floyd (technical tie) Gentle Giant
Genesis (-14.5) over Jethro Tull
King Crimson (-35.5) over Caravan

Moogtron III View Drop Down

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Posted: December 28 2014 at 15:37

micky wrote:

Moogtron III wrote:

Wille Nelson, huh? Wille Nelson has five 5-star albums on the AllMusic guide, a monument in country.

Then Camel...

Okay, I won't get started again LOL

Well, at least now I fully understand your POV. Some unspoken presuppositions come above the surface now.

Two statements you make. First... the Woolly Nelson statement. I agree with you. Honest, I do! Yes, I am drinking a beer now, I admit LOL

Now, about Camel. Level of innovation: close to zero. Like many other prog bands (Pendragon comes to mind), but you know what? (It was Iván BTW who once gave me the eye opener in one of his posts). It doesn't matter. "Progressive rock" is a musical style. Nothing more, nothing less. A band or artist can be as innovative as a musical Steve Jobs, but not be progressive in the PA sense of the word. On the other hand, a band/artist can be as innovative as your honorable left toe (you mentioned it LOL

), and derive stuff from others, but be a truly progressive act in the PA sense of the word.

In your post you seem to be realizing that, but not completely IMHO

This site attracts different people: people with an eye for adventure and people who just search for good music, regardless of the musical challenge it offers. Most of us are a mix of these two, including myself.

This is where the Camel-lovers and the non-Camel lovers on the site seem to not understand each other. If one doesn't like Camel, and one sees that their music is not innovative, one might get puzzled and even irritated by all those who say the band is so good.

Now, one thing about Premier, Second and Third League bands (I'm more of a soccer fan LOL

) were much, much more important for the history of prog than Camel.

To me... to deny it shows zero knowledge of the form, and even less capacity for objective thought, if I can be real blunt.

You may be as blunt as you like, but I completely lost you here. Stern Smile

But the question is: does one vote for importance for prog? Then the 'big six' (Genesis, Yes, ELP, Jethro Tull, King Crimson and Pink Floyd) should make the finales in every tournament.

Ah, now I understand even more where you come from. You were on a website which offered on a basis of objective criteria. That does make a difference. PA offers ratings on the basis of objective criteria too, but I never made many reviews. Maybe I should have done. Embarrassed

I suppose that changes your POV.

Thing is... most of us vote with (violin sounds coming out of the air) our hearts. We like a band regardless of prog importance or innovation.

We like a band because (heavy Hollywood tear jerker movies string sections) it makes a connection with us. Camel fans seem to land like a group of starlings in the friendly ( Unhappy

I don't have the same experience with you concerning the last statement.

Most of the music I like BTW has something new, something innovative to offer, but innovation for me is purely a means to and end, not the end in itself. I never felt superior in my tastes, because prog has never been "hip", "cool" anymore since 1976.

Well, at least I understand more where you came from now, and why you are so determined on generic and non-generic. Wink

Okay, next week we'll have some fun at the games between the survivors of this tournament. Thanks for organizing all this. Clap

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Posted: December 29 2014 at 16:10

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Early Jockey Club del Perú

Yes (-15.5) over Gong
Floyd (technical tie) Gentle Giant
Genesis (-14.5) over Jethro Tull
King Crimson (-35.5) over Caravan

take it from Micky the Geek... don't lose your money and take those odds on Gentle Giant Ivan. They are going to be Welcomed to the Floyd Machine as it steamrolls all the way to the final. Respectable but not close. 20 vote margin is the early Vegas odds that line is not moving down.

Only two bands can beat Floyd or be favored to beat them, and they won't meet either till the final.

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Posted: December 29 2014 at 16:40

god. if there was ONE thing I missed most about PA's..other than the people... it was these. I loved my multi-colored quote pyramids. Most of the time it was with Ivan, but you will do Marcel!

Moogtron III wrote:

micky wrote:

Moogtron III wrote:

Wille Nelson, huh? Wille Nelson has five 5-star albums on the AllMusic guide, a monument in country.

Then Camel...

Okay, I won't get started again LOL

Well, at least now I fully understand your POV. Some unspoken presuppositions come above the surface now.

Two statements you make. First... the Woolly Nelson statement. I agree with you. Honest, I do! Yes, I am drinking a beer now, I admit LOL

, but I subscribe to your statement. I am not a blindfolded, or earfolded, listener and I admit that I like other music genres, including country(rock) which makes it kind of easy for me to say this: I agree that Willie Nelson is more innovative than Camel. Watch out... I said innovative, not progressive.

and yet to be innovative is to be progressive(v) .. a progressive artist, the same in which King Crimson/ELP/Floyd. IMO you can not be a progressive artist if you are NOT being innovative and pushing the boundaries of genre norm. Be it rock or country or ahem .. jazz. Miles Davis and Willie Nelson are/were two of the greatest musical legends this country has produced since Elvis himself. Now of course there is another progressive.. progressive(n) and something tells me we are about to head there......

This leads me to my second point.

Now, about Camel. Level of innovation: close to zero. Like many other prog bands (Pendragon comes to mind), but you know what? (It was Iván BTW who once gave me the eye opener in one of his posts). It doesn't matter. "Progressive rock" is a musical style.

yep. Progressive(n) Music that is not progressive.. but is grouped in (influenced primarily) by those who did the actual progressing of the form.

Nothing more, nothing less. A band or artist can be as innovative as a musical Steve Jobs, but not be progressive in the PA sense of the word. On the other hand, a band/artist can be as innovative as your honorable left toe (you mentioned it LOL

), and derive stuff from others, but be a truly progressive act in the PA sense of the word.

not a progressive act.. but a Progressive Act. Big difference IMO.

In your post you seem to be realizing that, but not completely IMHO

Perhaps... but it all goes to speaking as to my particular view of this music.

you had progressive rock back in the day.. the classics you know.
then you had Progressive Rock.. groups like Camel.. zippo progressive about them.. but they fit.. by being arty and all that sh*t into the Progressive Rock Camp.

then along comes the media, the writers.. the industry and finally well meaning sites like this that strive to pigeonhole and stick labels on things. So what was once Progressive Rock.. somehow became the catchy Prog Rock. A genre onto itself... again about as progressive as my left toe as you had many bands either being paradies of themselves.. or just connecting the dots of the stylistic norms we attach to what we consider.. Prog Rock.

and now we have come full circle in the last ... who knows.. 15-20 years.. we have a bunch of bands who are undeniably progressive.. yet (as this site and its genre teams know all too well) owe very little to the GENRE of Prog Rock. Thus those progressive artists.. have completed the circle and are considered (and consider themselves) NOT Prog Rock groups (note the way Steve Wilson always denied that tag) but progressive Rock groups. Thus reflected in the way this site has evolved where instead of simply being a Prog Rock site, it has moved more to progressive rock.

I like Camel (like many others) not because of their innovation, but because the music stirs me (and others) deep in the heart, while... that's the mystery of music, puts others off to sleep like a dose of valium (the term comes from Iván).

On the Camel subject.. just in case it isn't clear. No one dislikes Camel or irritated by them for the lack of progressiveness. Especially me. I enjoy.. well.. at least 2 of their albums . The whole f**king Camel thing was just an excuse to have some fun, and let out the ELP Ultra in me.

Now, one thing about Premier, Second and Third League bands (I'm more of a soccer fan LOL

) were much, much more important for the history of prog than Camel.

To me... to deny it shows zero knowledge of the form, and even less capacity for objective thought, if I can be real blunt.

You may be as blunt as you like, but I completely lost you here. Stern Smile

I thought I was pretty clear actually. To deny that ELP were much more creative and more important than Camel tells me that person has sh*t for brains, just a fanboy. There was a reason they were, this isn't glam rock or pop rock where image is everything and manufactured. They did because their music was frickin incredible

But the question is: does one vote for importance for prog? Then the 'big six' (Genesis, Yes, ELP, Jethro Tull, King Crimson and Pink Floyd) should make the finales in every tournament.

I suppose that changes your POV.

PA's offers that option.. but come on.. who really does it. It is reviews based, not everyone can or even should be forced to give ratings objectively. It defeats the purpose .. the real purpose of music. To be enjoyed and not intellectualized. Some enjoy the history of it, the ebb and flow of Progressive Rock. It is a lot of fun to debate the history and significance of various groups and albums but obviously not everyone, in fact few, might have any interest in that.

Thing is... most of us vote with (violin sounds coming out of the air) our hearts. We like a band regardless of prog importance or innovation.

We like a band because (heavy Hollywood tear jerker movies string sections) it makes a connection with us. Camel fans seem to land like a group of starlings in the friendly ( Unhappy

I don't have the same experience with you concerning the last statement.

I see it still today.. in posts in this site. Suble at times.. very direct at times. Part of the mindset of prog fan is that us against the rest of musical world.. how can people listen to that sh*t when we have PROG. Yet for listeners that pride themselves on being so .. openminded.. some of the most elitist.. and closed-minded music fans I have met.. are prog fans.

Well, at least I understand more where you came from now, and why you are so determined on generic and non-generic. Wink

Okay, next week we'll have some fun at the games between the survivors of this tournament. Thanks for organizing all this. Clap

Thanks. It has been really nice to see people enjoy it. I enjoyed the hell out of doing it. I really can't wait for the album contest. Now that will be a hoot...

Edited by micky - December 29 2014 at 16:44

The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Moogtron III View Drop Down

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Posted: January 02 2015 at 12:50

micky wrote:

god. if there was ONE thing I missed most about PA's..other than the people... it was these. I loved my multi-colored quote pyramids. Most of the time it was with Ivan, but you will do Marcel!

Thank you, though I admit that Iván is a better debater than I am. I'm good at choosing colors, though, and that's also worth something. How do you like this purple? Totally unneccessary in this post, but I was in the mood for it

micky wrote:

and yet to be innovative is to be progressive(v) .. a progressive artist, the same in which King Crimson/ELP/Floyd. IMO you can not be a progressive artist if you are NOT being innovative and pushing the boundaries of genre norm. Be it rock or country or ahem .. jazz. Miles Davis and Willie Nelson are/were two of the greatest musical legends this country has produced since Elvis himself. Now of course there is another progressive.. progressive(n) and something tells me we are about to head there......

For some part it becomes a syntactical discussion, although I understand, once again, your POV. You say basically: a progrock artist/band should be progressive in the true sense of the word. Noblesse oblige, as the French say. When you're from a noble man's family, act like it. Play the progressive style, then be truly Progressive. Fair enough, though in my case sometimes (not often) I like some albums which don't cover new ground, but do good things in an existing style. But basically I can resonate inwardly with your POV.

micky wrote:

On the Camel subject.. just in case it isn't clear. No one dislikes Camel or irritated by them for the lack of progressiveness. Especially me. I enjoy.. well.. at least 2 of their albums . The whole f**king Camel thing was just an excuse to have some fun, and let out the ELP Ultra in me.

Yes, I understand. Subconscious fanboyism in my case, I'm sorry. Embarrassed

I was about to accuse you of using test animals for your games, single-humped and two-humped Not anymore. Cut off all the humps you like LOL

micky wrote:

Yes, you were clear, but I misread your initial answer. Embarrassed

micky wrote:

I enjoyed the hell out of doing it. I really can't wait for the album contest. Now that will be a hoot...

Oh yes! A happy new year to you and the missus Beer

micky

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Posted: January 04 2015 at 06:33

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Posted: January 10 2015 at 10:24

early vegas odds for the Final 4 starting tomorrow. Matches still on, but decided in reality.

Let's bring back in Micky the Geek.

King Crimson v. Genesis

two bands I am very ambivalent about.. while those of us that are are probably few and far between... it could be the difference with what appears to be on paper, a toss up matchup.

The Geek tends to think that the undecided will vote based on influence and overall importance (and lack, not no matter HOW GREAT it is was... of a pop phase)

early vegas odds. King Crimson -5.5 over Genesis

Pink Floyd v. Yes

Yes really impressed the Geek, even when making him look silly in predicting a close match with Gong. It was the first time Yes really showed some muscle in the tournament with uninspiring wins earlier in the tournament. How will it fare against The Machine who have steamrolled anyone and everyone on the way to winning the Portland Regional.

The Greek sees it not being quite the toss up that Genesis/King Crimson match likely will be... somewhat close but not a laugher.

Floyd -13.5 over Yes. Yes is edgey enough to turn off more people than Floyd and the old weakness that Floyd faced in old contests, it really isn't a prog band per se, seems to matter less and less these days with the bluring of the progressive/prog lines.

Edited by micky - January 10 2015 at 10:40

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Posted: January 11 2015 at 07:06

1 hour left on the regional finals. Get your votes in now and be heard before the polls close and the Final 4 battles kick off!

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Posted: January 11 2015 at 08:09

*echoes through empty arenas as both teams and fans have long retired to the bars involving mercy rules*

Final Results - Regional Finals

Detroit Region: Yes - 51 / Gong - 30 Clap

Portland Region: Pink Floyd - 56 / Gentle Giant - 36 Clap

Lima Region: Genesis - 61 / Jethro Toe - 29 Sleepy

Rome Region: King Crimson - 67 / Caravan - 18 Angry

and on to the Final Four we go.... hosted at the Mecca of Prog Rock... the Palazzo di Prog in Alexandria Virginia!

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sleeper

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Posted: January 11 2015 at 08:47

Not surprised Yes trounced Gong in the end, I always thought you were underselling them in the build up to that match.

Haven't a clue who I'm going to vote for in the KC vs Genesis match up, that's the toughest of the tournement so far.

Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005

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Posted: January 11 2015 at 08:54

sleeper wrote:

Not surprised Yes trounced Gong in the end, I always thought you were underselling them in the build up to that match.

Haven't a clue who I'm going to vote for in the KC vs Genesis match up, that's the toughest of the tournement so far.

yeah... I read too much into some of the anti-Yes voices I had heard.. and perhaps made a bit too much of the Gong Army

or perhaps I was just putting the notion of a tight match out there.. in hope it would be one LOL

It shouldn't have suprised me. Me, Commander of the Gong Army, and co-lead Cheerleader early on simply could not vote against Yes. I love them just as much..and well... they were responsible for 2 of the top 5 prog albums ever done IMO, so when push came to shove, I had to vote for Yes Embarrassed

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sleeper

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Posted: January 11 2015 at 09:15

Maybe I should shout my dislike for Yes a little less! LOL