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Angelo View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: What is that to you - coherence?
    Posted: November 27 2014 at 14:22
When I asked a few people about their opinion on an album that I recently reviewed, they told me that it contained a lot of good stuff, but that it lacked coherence. My second question, to one of them, was 'coherence within, or across the tracks?'. The answer was both.

After I accepted that, I started wondering - what does that mean, coherence? Inside a song or track, I can imagine one expects the use of matching chords, and perhaps (but optional) a recognisable set of choruses and verses. 
Across an album, however, what do we expect there? Is it required to have matching songs, in terms of chords, structure and feel? If that is the case, wouldn't a lot of albums become very boring? Or, the other way round, aren't a lot of albums pretty much incoherent? Or is an album incoherent if it mixes elements from different genres or styles in what (some) people consider the wrong way? 

There are many options, and I'm pretty sure that I never consiously take it into account when reviewing. All I can imagine is that if styles or genres are mixed in the wrong way, I'd recognise it - for example by recognising how Hooks in You as a straight forward hard rock track doesn't match the rest of Marillion's Holidays in Eden album. That makes the album incoherent, perhaps, but not necessarily bad. I could hold the same reasoning for You Know What I Like on Genesis' Selling England by the Pound, which is a completely different beast than Firth of Fifth and the Dancing with the Moonlit Knight. Then again, there are elements in these tracks that match the rest of the album - the typical guitar sounds of Rothery and Hackett for instance.

If there is no link at all between tracks, an album could be considered incoherent - but coherence to me can come from a shared atmosphere (feel), recurring elements of certain styles or genres, sound of instrument, use of a particular instrument (Emerson's keys). Only if there is none of those present, an album would probably become incoherent. 

That's a bit brief, and if this leads to discussion, I may have to elaborate more on this - but for now, I just would like to know what is your view on 'coherence' in the context of a single album.


P.S. if anyone is curious what album triggered this discussion, it's the one know as the 'bum' album - Corvus Stone II. Not that that matters, as the examples above hopefully show.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 14:38
Coherence doesn't factor so much for me - you can throw all sorts of different songs on an album, but if they're good and especially if they flow well, it'll work.

As for flow, it needn't be a direct segue between tracks, and not even having songs that would seem to naturally go together, just keeping there from being dead air between tracks goes a long way towards making an album flow. That's how George Martin saved The Beatles, and that's how the first four tracks of Minutemen's Double Nickels on the Dime go together in spite of the second beginning with a lull, the fourth being an acoustic track, and everything else is just the lighter side of hardcore punk.

I'd say that Corvus Stone II works in this regard.


Edited by Lear'sFool - November 27 2014 at 14:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 14:45
Hmmmm....some albums have distinct and unrelated songs, while others revolve around a theme.   Still others are highly integrated concept albums. 

Some albums have a uniform style of play, use of instruments, etc while others have a narrow or broad range of style.

A need for a particular degree of coherence may be more of a personal preference, i'd guess.  I haven't heard Corvus Stone II yet.  It's on my list. :)  I wonder if I will have the same reaction.

Would love a list of 'incoherent' albums so I may understand what others think this looks like.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 14:48
That's three of us wondering now. As explained, I have no clue what an incoherent album would be, I've found none so far. The opposite would be something like Endless River perhaps - I only heard it 3 times now, but all tracks dinstinctly sound like Pink Floyd as we know them since the 80's. Stylewise, soundwise...


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:05
I think that to be coherent an album must have tracks with a similar sound, which does not mean they should be all identical, of course. It's when all the songs can convey a certain atmosphere, even at different degrees. I consider VdGG's Godbluff to be very coherent, while the tracks of an album like Into the Electric Castle (Ayreon) have much less in common with each other, going through a wider variety of moods.
So, my opinion is that the mood/atmosphere of the album determines its overall coherence.

However, I don't care if an album sounds incoherent as long as its songs are well written, but an album with each song written appositely to fit a certain state of mind is just so much nicer to listen to.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:11
In my experience as a reviewer, I have come across albums whose coherence was not immediately evident, yet it was unmistakably there (if this makes any sense at allSmile). It is a quality of the best albums, which can carry off eclecticism without sounding patchy. On the other hand, an excess of overt coherence can cause an album to sound monotonous and flat.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:13
Like with almost everything else in music, it depends. Coherence can mean a lot of different things, but if we're talking about a band that, for lack of a better wording, plays 'dad-prog' then the lack of a red thread running through the album certainly stands out like a sore thumb. Conversely, if we're talking say The Residents, I'm expecting things to be incoherent from the get-go. 
I think this has as much to do with what one expects of the given album but also what one has come to expect from certain genres. 
Coherence, or lack there of, can also merely stand for how the whole thing comes together, so to speak. An album can feel like a mess and still be as slick as a baby's bottom and vice versa. 
Maybe, and I'm merely speculating here, the folks who made this comment about the new Corvus Stone felt a lack of coherence due to the music being recorded separately in various countries and not together as band in the studio? Like I said, I'm only speculating.




Edited by Guldbamsen - November 27 2014 at 15:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:16
I remember hearing "Battle of Epping Forest" on a record a friend lent me and thought What is this? Not rock, not anything I thought I could like. Then I heard "Firth of Fifth", also on Selling England by the pound". I was hooked! Later, I realised that Epping forest was brilliant, altho' totally unrelated. Just took time and therein lies the way so many accepted and got used to unusual sounds. NON compliance. The White album kicked that idea off very nicely.
Hard to think of many albums from the golden age that was coherent but back then there were no rules. The rules were for pop, jazz and classical music. I hope prog never gets rules.
What is prog? Music that fits no other genre correctly. Anyone disagree with that?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:18
Originally posted by 'PiphanyRambler 'PiphanyRambler wrote:

I think that to be coherent an album must have tracks with a similar sound, which does not mean they should be all identical, of course. It's when all the songs can convey a certain atmosphere, even at different degrees. I consider VdGG's Godbluff to be very coherent, while the tracks of an album like Into the Electric Castle (Ayreon) have much less in common with each other, going through a wider variety of moods.
So, my opinion is that the mood/atmosphere of the album determines its overall coherence.

However, I don't care if an album sounds incoherent as long as its songs are well written, but an album with each song written appositely to fit a certain state of mind is just so much nicer to listen to.

That's an interesting view. So Into the Electric Castle is incoherent, but still good, by your definition? Actually, that is not a bad example - that album contains music composed by different people as well (not everything was done by Arjan himself) that was brought together into one album. Maybe Ayreon's debut is an even better example, with a death metal piece next to the renaissance sound of Ye Courtyard Minstrel Boy. 
Thanks for that, 'PhiphanyRambler'.


Edited by Angelo - November 27 2014 at 15:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:18
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

In my experience as a reviewer, I have come across albums whose coherence was not immediately evident, yet it was unmistakably there (if this makes any sense at allSmile). It is a quality of the best albums, which can carry off eclecticism without sounding patchy. On the other hand, an excess of overt coherence can cause an album to sound monotonous and flat.

Oh that is SO true. I never post anything negative about any band anywhere and never will but an album that flows can be very forgettable.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:20
I'm just as much a fan of coherence as I am of the opposite. It's just down to the feel of the album and how it's pulled off. 
Some albums actually feel coherent because of the way they overtly display an incoherent approach to the music (that made sense in my head).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:25
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

In my experience as a reviewer, I have come across albums whose coherence was not immediately evident, yet it was unmistakably there (if this makes any sense at allSmile). It is a quality of the best albums, which can carry off eclecticism without sounding patchy. On the other hand, an excess of overt coherence can cause an album to sound monotonous and flat.

Darn. I was typing an answer to 'Phiphany and missed a million other replies, haha.

This is indeed what I was thinking about - I never came across a really incoherent album, but some do take a few listens. 
And yes, if you make an album too coherent, you get that stuff they play in elevators I guess. Now that I think of it, it's quite a skill of latter day Pink Floyd to avoid that. Their album is very coherent compared to some others, yet it is not monotous or flat (at least, after 3 listens).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:27
In the 70s, coherence or concepts became common and the weird thing is that those very albums destroyed prog in the UK at least. Double albums on a theme, no weird tangents any more but every one of them brilliant in my recollection. At that time I was mystified as to why all my friends went off music by Yes, genesis, Uriah Heep and many others. It was the reverse problem. I like everything and always did. I call it prog rock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:29
Excellent topic Angelo.

I tend to enjoy albums with some level of coherence. This does not mean all tracks should sound similar or portray exactly the same atmosphere, but somewhat, somewhere tell the same story (yes, a very abstract definition...).

"I know what I like" is like a fish out of the water in its album but that does not necessarily alter the overall feeling of it.

BTW Corvus Stone II has struck me as incoherent on first listen but still need to listen a few times.

I will return after I had some more thoughts Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:29
Originally posted by odinalcatraz odinalcatraz wrote:

I remember hearing "Battle of Epping Forest" on a record a friend lent me and thought What is this? Not rock, not anything I thought I could like. Then I heard "Firth of Fifth", also on Selling England by the pound". I was hooked! Later, I realised that Epping forest was brilliant, altho' totally unrelated. Just took time and therein lies the way so many accepted and got used to unusual sounds. NON compliance. The White album kicked that idea off very nicely.
Hard to think of many albums from the golden age that was coherent but back then there were no rules. The rules were for pop, jazz and classical music. I hope prog never gets rules.
What is prog? Music that fits no other genre correctly. Anyone disagree with that?

Yes, of course! Epping Forest is an even better example than I Know What I Like. Wacko <-- Where's facepalm when you need him?

Not sure if prog doesn't fit any genre, but it's supposed to 'progress' from those genres, right? That means change the rules, or bend them - I tend to agree.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:30
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I'm just as much a fan of coherence as I am of the opposite. It's just down to the feel of the album and how it's pulled off. 
Some albums actually feel coherent because of the way they overtly display an incoherent approach to the music (that made sense in my head).

Haha, I was going to reply to your previous post, but you almost literally wrote what I was going to write there: coherent incoherence is also coherent. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 16:59
Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

Excellent topic Angelo.

Thanks, Thanos.

Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

I tend to enjoy albums with some level of coherence. This does not mean all tracks should sound similar or portray exactly the same atmosphere, but somewhat, somewhere tell the same story (yes, a very abstract definition...).

Errmmm.... yes, that is abstract, but it works for me. :)

Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

"I know what I like" is like a fish out of the water in its album but that does not necessarily alter the overall feeling of it.

BTW Corvus Stone II has struck me as incoherent on first listen but still need to listen a few times.

I will return after I had some more thoughts Thumbs Up

We'll be waiting!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 17:18
Originally posted by odinalcatraz odinalcatraz wrote:

In the 70s, coherence or concepts became common and the weird thing is that those very albums destroyed prog in the UK at least. Double albums on a theme, no weird tangents any more but every one of them brilliant in my recollection. At that time I was mystified as to why all my friends went off music by Yes, genesis, Uriah Heep and many others. It was the reverse problem. I like everything and always did. I call it prog rock.

Went off? As in wanting to go back to the more psychedelic and (implicitly) less coherent albums of before that time?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 20:17
I don't use the term much, as it is oft thrown around.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 20:44
To me, coherence just means an overall strategy.  Do all the parts of an album seem to work towards some common goal?  They don't even have to sound alike at all.  Dark Side of the Moon is "coherent" - Atom Heart Mother is not.  But it's not necessarily a bad thing.  I actually prefer listening to Atom Heart Mother most of the time, because its relatively aimlessness trajectory is one of the charming things about it.  It's also probably why the band hates it so much.
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