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Svetonio View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 20:57
For me, a coherence means that the arrangement / pruduction of the songs is more or less equal at entire album. For example, already mentioned pop song I Know What I Like is made in its arrangement that to be proggy. The same is the case with a few years later recorded the pop song Follow You Follow Me ; in the case that is sung by e.g. Abba, and that the production / arrangement was done by Benny Andersson and Björn Ulvaeus, it would be a big Abba hit without a shadow of doubt. Therefore, incoherence on e.g. Selling England by the Pound would mean that the arrangement and production of the pop composition as I Know What I Like was executed in a common manner of the pop songs as they were in 1973.

Edited by Svetonio - November 27 2014 at 20:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2014 at 22:15
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

To me, coherence just means an overall strategy.  Do all the parts of an album seem to work towards some common goal?  They don't even have to sound alike at all.  Dark Side of the Moon is "coherent" - Atom Heart Mother is not.  But it's not necessarily a bad thing.  I actually prefer listening to Atom Heart Mother most of the time, because its relatively aimlessness trajectory is one of the charming things about it.  It's also probably why the band hates it so much.

I agree with this definition. I listened to Corvus stone II and it had this exact problem. It had a lot of musical ideas that built up to nothing and it felt like it just dragged on going nowhere. The best song on there is "Moaning Lisa" its not perfect but it has some really nice moments and the transitions are much smoother.

Albums like Atom Heart Mother work well because there goal is to not make sense. A better example of this would be the improvisation on King Crimson's "Moon Child". It makes no sense but the way instruments interact with each other in a subtle yet thought provoking way make it an unforgettable experience. 

I would also add that while songs such as "I know what I like" and "Battle of Epping Forest" stick out like a sore thumb on Selling England by the Pound, they do a good job at what they are trying to accomplish. "I Know What I Like" is a more relaxing poppy song that relieves the tension from the intense and dramatic "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight". "Battle of Epping Forest" is a great song by itself And if anything the poppy sound gives it more personality and character. Both of these songs also fit in with the concept of the album.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 00:24
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

For me, a coherence means that the arrangement / pruduction of the songs is more or less equal at entire album. For example, already mentioned pop song I Know What I Like is made in its arrangement that to be proggy. The same is the case with a few years later recorded the pop song Follow You Follow Me ; in the case that is sung by e.g. Abba, and that the production / arrangement was done by Benny Andersson and Björn Ulvaeus, it would be a big Abba hit without a shadow of doubt. Therefore, incoherence on e.g. Selling England by the Pound would mean that the arrangement and production of the pop composition as I Know What I Like was executed in a common manner of the pop songs as they were in 1973.

And that last part means that it was exectued differently than (and thus inchorent with) the rest of the album? At least that's what I get from what you write, but I'm not sure I interpret it correctly - because at first you say it's proggy...

Actually, and likely unintentionally, your post is somewhat incoherent. LOL Could you indicate whether my interpretation above is correct?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 00:30
Originally posted by TradeMark0 TradeMark0 wrote:

Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

To me, coherence just means an overall strategy.  Do all the parts of an album seem to work towards some common goal?  They don't even have to sound alike at all.  Dark Side of the Moon is "coherent" - Atom Heart Mother is not.  But it's not necessarily a bad thing.  I actually prefer listening to Atom Heart Mother most of the time, because its relatively aimlessness trajectory is one of the charming things about it.  It's also probably why the band hates it so much.

I agree with this definition. I listened to Corvus stone II and it had this exact problem. It had a lot of musical ideas that built up to nothing and it felt like it just dragged on going nowhere. The best song on there is "Moaning Lisa" its not perfect but it has some really nice moments and the transitions are much smoother.

Albums like Atom Heart Mother work well because there goal is to not make sense. A better example of this would be the improvisation on King Crimson's "Moon Child". It makes no sense but the way instruments interact with each other in a subtle yet thought provoking way make it an unforgettable experience. 

I would also add that while songs such as "I know what I like" and "Battle of Epping Forest" stick out like a sore thumb on Selling England by the Pound, they do a good job at what they are trying to accomplish. "I Know What I Like" is a more relaxing poppy song that relieves the tension from the intense and dramatic "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight". "Battle of Epping Forest" is a great song by itself And if anything the poppy sound gives it more personality and character. Both of these songs also fit in with the concept of the album.


I see the point in this. actually is similar to what odinalcatraz also metioned, thesse older prog albums are indeed more free format and less 'coherent'. That doesn't make them bad though, on the contrary. 'Moonchild' as a single track is definitely a good example - but how does this apply to the ITCOTCK album as a whole? Apart from being played by the same set of musicians, and being produced by the same producer, there is not much that musically ties 21st Century Schizoid Man to Moonchild or to Epithath. Of course I am exaggerating a bit there, but why is this old album considered a master piece, and why is a newer album with the same issue considered merely incoherent? There's more to it, apparently - who is willing to elaborate on that?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 01:40
Coherence to me can mean having a theme and that theme can be to wander about all over the place and explore weird stuff. It doesn't to mean a dampening down of ideas. The latest Pink Floyd album has coherence even if its not the most brilliant release of their career. But it works because they knew what they were trying to set down on record and followed that through.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 02:08
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

I see the point in this. actually is similar to what odinalcatraz also metioned, thesse older prog albums are indeed more free format and less 'coherent'. That doesn't make them bad though, on the contrary. 'Moonchild' as a single track is definitely a good example - but how does this apply to the ITCOTCK album as a whole? Apart from being played by the same set of musicians, and being produced by the same producer, there is not much that musically ties 21st Century Schizoid Man to Moonchild or to Epithath. Of course I am exaggerating a bit there, but why is this old album considered a master piece, and why is a newer album with the same issue considered merely incoherent? There's more to it, apparently - who is willing to elaborate on that?

I think the reason ITCOTCK works so well is because all of its musical ideas were given proper development. even though it covers a lot of different musical ideas all of them felt complete and were well integrated into the music. I think an album sounds incoherent when the musical ideas aren't properly developed and fell like they were just thrown in there. 

I also don't think that a single word should be used to criticize an album. It doesn't explain all the flaws of the album and it doesn't explain how the album could be done better. Its kind of like simply calling something pompous, pretentious, boring, or saying it only has X amount of good songs. It doesn't explain the actual problems. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 02:35
Well, it the album is 'incoherent' one word is enough. Problem is that nobody has a proper definition of what 'incoherent' actually means. Same goes for the other words you mention - good to bring those in!

To continue down this route - what would you consider 'properly developed' - what is required to meet that definition? If the definition is 'musical ideas are not just thrown in there' that's fine, but then a lot of people who consider (here we go again - it's a useful example, but another one would be welcome) the Corvus Stone albums to be incoherent may miss the point of what is going on on these albums. Each track in itself conveys an idea there, but do the ideas have to match in order to make a coherent album? What is it that make some people love an album like this, while others dislike it but can't come up with more than a single word? This is why I find music so interesting - it's all emotion apparently.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 03:43
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Well, it the album is 'incoherent' one word is enough. Problem is that nobody has a proper definition of what 'incoherent' actually means. Same goes for the other words you mention - good to bring those in!

To continue down this route - what would you consider 'properly developed' - what is required to meet that definition? If the definition is 'musical ideas are not just thrown in there' that's fine, but then a lot of people who consider (here we go again - it's a useful example, but another one would be welcome) the Corvus Stone albums to be incoherent may miss the point of what is going on on these albums. Each track in itself conveys an idea there, but do the ideas have to match in order to make a coherent album? What is it that make some people love an album like this, while others dislike it but can't come up with more than a single word? This is why I find music so interesting - it's all emotion apparently.

In my opinion a properly developed musical idea is one where all the instruments work together to create music in a meaningful or convincing way. This would require music having elements of personality, originality, and complexity in order to create an identifiable sound. At this point it becomes very subjective. After all, you can't tell a painter that his painting is incomplete; but when you compare Corvus Stone II to 70s prog classics you can tell that its lacking something. I would be more interested in discussing what makes music "good".
   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 03:43
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

For me, a coherence means that the arrangement / pruduction of the songs is more or less equal at entire album. For example, already mentioned pop song I Know What I Like is made in its arrangement that to be proggy. The same is the case with a few years later recorded the pop song Follow You Follow Me ; in the case that is sung by e.g. Abba, and that the production / arrangement was done by Benny Andersson and Björn Ulvaeus, it would be a big Abba hit without a shadow of doubt. Therefore, incoherence on e.g. Selling England by the Pound would mean that the arrangement and production of the pop composition as I Know What I Like was executed in a common manner of the pop songs as they were in 1973.

And that last part means that it was exectued differently than (and thus inchorent with) the rest of the album? At least that's what I get from what you write, but I'm not sure I interpret it correctly - because at first you say it's proggy...

Actually, and likely unintentionally, your post is somewhat incoherent. LOL Could you indicate whether my interpretation above is correct?
Ok, I'll try to explain my opinion again.
Many of the songs at the celebrated prog albums are pop songs basically, and in another (pop) arrangement they may be, say, in competition for the Eurovision Song Contest. But those songs are driven into prog style by arrangement and production. The song you mentioned in your OP, I Know What I Like,  is one of them.
If the pop song I Know What I Like had not an arrangment that was done in proggy style, among other songs at the album that are prog songs, Selling England by the Pound  the album could be only an incoherent album, and consenquently, a bullsh*t album.


Edited by Svetonio - November 28 2014 at 06:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 06:41
Thanks, Svetonio. That's what I thought you meant.


@trademark0 : is coherent part of good, or vice versa?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 06:43
P.S. I'm at now, more elaborate replies later.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 08:29

Hi,

I can understand "coherence" in the sense that your language/grammar/wording could use a little clean up to ensure there is no duplication and such.

As for the reviews of individual tracks i am not sure that defines a "review" where your opinion on each and every track is mandatory. I tend to review the whole album, and rarely, any individual tracks, although I made a big/huge difference for the KC's first album, because each track was so important, and there is such a myriad of misunderstanding about the whole thing and the meaning of the album! Hyde Park, in its heyday, with many bands, including KC, Edgar Broughton Band and many others, should be enough to tell you that the music means a bit more than just ... another song for the top ten masses!

All in all, if your name is ______________, and you are a writer, no one has the right to change your "coherence" ... or we will NEVER EVER FOREVER find another James Joyce, Faulkner, Hemingway, or whomever ... because these supposed "criticisms" will kill the writer and his/her ability to live it out and through.

PA, is not here, to kill progressive music and the folks that help support it. Criticism is only fair game, when we're joking around and having fun, other than when someone is being a total idiot and only knows 5 top ten songs, and never heard anything else in their lives and they are proclaiming through their meager amount of postings that they know what "dark music" is! They don't even know the difference between light and dark! ... to be able to discern that the music is "dark", besides the obvious point that they won't adhere to that what may be dark for one is very light for the other! To them, that view is impossible.

You have to stand up for your ideas and views, and update them as you see it needed. Not via someone's comments. They might have some truth in them (there is always an inch), but in general, they are about ... my opinion is right and yours is wrong ... and essentially that is not something that will help the next generation create progressive music and more experimental music. You have to learn to shut out the undeducated, for lack of a better term!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 08:42

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:


...
If the pop song I Know What I Like had not an arrangment that was done in proggy style, among other songs at the album that are prog songs, Selling England by the Pound  the album could be only an incoherent album, and consenquently, a bullsh*t album.

I think this is rather unfair, and I am not sure that you are aware of the literary creativity that exists in Great Britain, and has been a part of all their creative efforts for hundreds and hundreds of years.

To me, the album was a slight attack on the English upper class, with its gardens, and its this and that ...  (the opening credo!) ... and a not so funny joke about the fact that many of us just don't care about anything ... we all like what we know, etc, etc ... and there you are ... a perfect example in your comments. You just didn't like the fact that it some ways it was putting you down! I also like the other cuts, that kind tell you that you like the movies and the drink ... and forget the rest ...

The whole thing is much truer, than we give it credit, and Peter's point was that the country was being sold out for the money, not its folks ... and I agree! They are doing the same thing in America ... did you look at the Kmart/WalMart parking lots last night? Maybe your wife went crazy too, and drove you nuts ... now go read the lyrics again ... it's not the holiday anymore ... it's the glut and thirst for spending money and get more toys and unnecessary goodies ... like a pretty garden and a nice lawnmower and you enjoy pruning it and laugh and sing while the music plays loud ... and you couldn't careless what happens in Africa!

As XTC would say ... WAKE UP!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 10:09
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

never heard anything else in their lives and they are proclaiming through their meager amount of postings that they know what "dark music" is!

I wonder who you're talking about...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 10:52
To me, coherence is about allowing all the insanity and chaos to flow. I'd say that even Mr. Bungle and Sleepytime Gorilla Museum have coherence. Even the new PoiL album has coherence.

And why strive for anything that resembles coherence as long as you are creating what you want. Allow the surreal to flow out. Allow music to rule. I'd rather hear the full extent of an artists creativity.

As for the Corvus Stone album, it's a mixture of hippie jam music and dad prog, as I would call it. I would say it's pretty coherent. The kind of people that would say that album is "incoherent" probably doesn't listen to much Rock in Opposition type stuff or the Avant-prog of the world. Coherence takes a much lower stage than creativity, beauty, fury, and the assortment of complex emotions felt within music to me. :)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 10:57
Originally posted by 'PiphanyRambler 'PiphanyRambler wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

never heard anything else in their lives and they are proclaiming through their meager amount of postings that they know what "dark music" is!

I wonder who you're talking about...

He took so much offensive that you were simply asking about 'dark prog' and posting your idea of what 'dark prog' meant failing to realize that opinions on what qualities can be attached to music are all based on our own personal perceptions.

LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 11:16
I find this a fascinating topic. Coherence across the whole album is what hooked me on the Lamb Lies Down On Broadway. As someone who plays guitar, but has never made an album (yet). I often wonder about it. Some of it comes from blending and merging things together. Some of from recurring themes, recurring timbres, and so on. Some of it, I suppose, stems from albums naturally representing a certain mindset of musicians through the period of its creation. I think this is what is so brilliant about a lot of Prog; how it hangs together through disparate shifts in genres. Steve Hackett's Spectral Mornings and To Watch the Storms, for instance, how do they hang together in defiance of all their shifts of genres? Although I think it hangs together just fine, I suspect that Steve Hackett might regard his own album Guitar Noir as one that lacks coherence from the way he talks about it. He's spoken of it as a bit of an odd album of sorts, and explains that it was put together over a long stretch of time, which seems to indicate that it didn't represent a coherent mindset for him. (Again, I think it hangs together just fine, which just adds to the mystery). There are a couple albums I'll offer as ones that I think strain the limits of coherence. One is (make sure you're sitting down and breathing deep breaths) - In the Court of Crimson King. Another is Live, Love, Larf and Loaf. I like them, nevertheless. Zappa's stuff also hops around through many disparate styles, and though tracks may be very different, there is a coherence that stems from the counterpoint itself. Zappa himself was interested in this topic, identifying in interviews something he referred to as "conceptual continuity" (although he included continuity between albums as well as within).


Edited by HackettFan - November 28 2014 at 11:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 11:24
Coherence between songs on an album and within a single piece of music are two different animals, in my opinion.  There are plenty of ways you can achieve coherence on an album: stylistically, lyrically, thematically, production-wise...the list goes on and on on, and what devices you employ depend on whether the album is designed as a simple collection of songs or as a single work meant to be taken as a whole.

I see coherence within a single piece of music as almost entirely a matter of thematic development, and that not always in the "classical" sense of the word, where a melody is introduced and then varied throughout a piece; a particular rhythm or harmony or even timbre can be developed.  My composition professor likes to say that the essence of composition is taking a short musical idea and expanding it into an entire work.  This, in my opinion, is why some of the best progressive rock songs actually follow a fairly standard song structure, even though it is obviously expanded and arranged in a more complex way; form facilitates development.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 12:36
Originally posted by TradeMark0 TradeMark0 wrote:

In my opinion a properly developed musical idea is one where all the instruments work together to create music in a meaningful or convincing way. This would require music having elements of personality, originality, and complexity in order to create an identifiable sound. At this point it becomes very subjective. After all, you can't tell a painter that his painting is incomplete; but when you compare Corvus Stone II to 70s prog classics you can tell that its lacking something. I would be more interested in discussing what makes music "good".

Yes, you can tell a painter that his painting is incomplete. I did a watercolor painting once and made the mistake of showing it off before it was done. It was segmented into three different color schemes. In one of the segments I had orange, blue and green.   People thought it was horrible (orange and blue complement each other, but nothing complemented the green, and green and orange definitely do not work together). Of course I was going for a four way color scheme the whole time. Once I touched up the shadows with a little red to complement the green the reaction to it changed completely.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2014 at 15:28

There is no such thing as coherence, when you are talking about an artist.

Go look for "coherence" on Picasso, Miro, Dali!

Go look for "coherence" on most writers in the 20th century other than the pulp top ten folks!

Go look for "coherence" in Stravinsky and many other composers in the 20th century!


We're not admitting, or accepting that people are people and tomorrow they are different and the music/song/sound will not be the same, not to mention that the instruments might change, as happened in the 20th century when everything went electric and orchestras died by the dozen!

Give it a break ... I was born in 1950, went to Brazil in 1959, came to America in 1965, went to California in 1971. moved to the Pacific Northwest in 1982. The only "coherence" is that there is a person named Pedro in tehre .... the rest is just a part of the whole!

You're asking people to be the same for a whole album and their whole lifetime or work ... and that is senile and bad thinking. Pay attention to the words ... I'm only standing up to the artists, and you are trying to lock them down ... and expect them to kiss your hiney!

You're killing progressive, prog and any other kind of music by not allowing these folks to be who they are and do what they see ... it has to be what you see!!!!!!

You're insane! (as the Firesign Theater would say!)

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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