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Catcher10 
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 Posted: December 07 2014 at 18:05 |
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This is why we have JMA website for these discussions....it should be moved there, this is PA.
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Man With Hat
Collaborator
Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team
Joined: March 12 2005
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Posted: December 07 2014 at 18:13 |
 Catcher10 wrote:
This is why we have JMA website for these discussions....it should be moved there, this is PA. |
Except davis is here...
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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Catcher10
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Posted: December 07 2014 at 18:38 |
Man With Hat wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
This is why we have JMA website for these discussions....it should be moved there, this is PA. |
Except davis is here... |
And there, here cause PA started before JMA.....clearly there are fans everywhere. IMO he does not belong in Proto-prog....by definition makes little to no sense
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Svetonio
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Location: Serbia
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Posted: December 07 2014 at 18:55 |
Lear'sFool wrote:
Well, a lot of fusion bands experimented with complex time signatures and long tracks, and some prog rock bands turned fusion, so that would be why fusion is included as part of the greater prog family here. |
I agree. Jazz rock / Fusion is accepted by many of prog fans as a sub-genre of prog and that is that. Btw, jazz rock is actually accepted by prog fans far more than it ever was / is accepted by jazz purists. The same thing is with Progressive electronic. Is Berlin School - rock? of course it's not, but it's accepted by prog audience due to its misterious, spacey atmosphere or whatever, and that is that - Tangerine Dream are here to stay. Thus Miles, Return to Forever, Mahavisnu Orchestra, Weather Report, Steely Dan, Brand X, Back Door, Oregon, Steve Tibbets and other magnificent Jazz rock / Fusion acts are here to stay.
Edited by Svetonio - December 07 2014 at 19:46
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Progosopher
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Posted: December 07 2014 at 19:47 |
Evolver wrote:
The similarity between Miles and Brubeck is that both of these men pushed jazz beyond it's traditional boundaries. Like the prog pioneers, they broke the barriers that were limiting their genre. The difference is that one of the things Miles did was legitimize the use of the rock rhythm section in jazz, which, from the jazz side, was the foundation of fusion. Brubeck, on the other hand, was more interested in odd time changes (a staple of the prog sound), and a blending of classical and jazz. Hence, Miles belongs in the fusion subgenre, Brubeck does not. |
This reflects my views quite well.  The presence of Miles is one of the oddest aspects of this site, but as one of the innovators of Jazz/Rock Fusion he most certainly deserves to be listed here. The odd thing is all of his earlier work, which is not rock in any way but is purely jazz of course. The "all releases" policy of the administrators gives us all of those recordings. Yet is not one of the main reasons people come to this site, as many have stated, to become aware of new artists and even new forms of music? For rockers, jazz is a new form - they have not heard it before. And no one is required to like anything that is listed on this site. Bitches Brew and In a Silent Way may suit one's tastes while Kind of Blue or Seven Steps to Heaven do not. Miles was among the most protean of musicians, which is his mark of greatness. From the late 60s on, his style can be described as J/R Fusion, no matter how much he experimented. To him, the labels meant nothing. It was all music to him, and that makes his work some of the most pure we have. The administrators of this site have stated they intend it to be the most comprehensive of its kind, and have succeeded. It cannot please everyone. I myself care little to nothing for most of the metal categories (although I am listening to Iron Maiden at the moment) because so much of it just sounds the same to me, yet I would never try to eliminate those categories. I understand why they are here. To simplify, Miles practically created Jazz/Rock Fusion. Note the word 'rock.' Even if not all of his albums are in that precise category, he deserves to be here. And should be heard. If one doesn't like his music, or any particular album, fine. Should we dump Genesis for going pop? Or any of those once great bands who ended up releasing pure swill, such as Triumvirat or ELP? Not at all. And again, there is an invitation here to explore.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Argonaught
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Joined: June 04 2012
Location: Virginia
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Posted: December 07 2014 at 20:41 |
To sum up some of the observations, made in this thread: progressive music transcends the mainstream genres (or styles, or whatever), as defined by the prevalent opinions of the day. Which means it's bound to be different is some discernible way from the genres and styles it has evolved from.
Maybe now is the time for a gentle paradigm shift: prog is not rock, or jazz, or avant-garde; it's a way of making music.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
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Location: Canada
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Points: 6673
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Posted: December 07 2014 at 21:00 |
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Slice/dice /label/libel !
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Manuel
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Posted: December 08 2014 at 10:02 |
dr wu23 wrote:
Progressive rock...? No....jazz and jazz fusion...yes. |
Exactly my thoughts.
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Padraic
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Posted: December 08 2014 at 10:16 |
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Miles was doing avant-progressive rock in the mid 70s as well as jazz-rock/fusion before then.
I am firmly in the camp of him belonging here.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
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Posted: December 08 2014 at 10:20 |
Hi,
Since we're so damn hung up on definitions, the answer would be NO.
However, when it comes to "attitude", "ability" and "creativity", I would say YES, because it pushed the boundaries of a lot of music and helped the rock medium get stronger along the way. Rock music as you and I know it TODAY, did not quite exist then, and all we knew was some pop songs and singers and a few singing movie stars. There was no long cut. There was no individuality ... and if Tom Dowd is correct, Miles was not the only black man doing unusual things and specially stretching out the music ... which became a trend and one of the more important parts of "progressive" music, though nowadays everyone is bringing "progressive" and "prog" down to small songs again ... back to the top of the pops! Is that all you know?
All in all, I would say that regardless of how we feel, Miles is a giant in music history in the 20th century and we should appreciate that from a historical perspective, not a stupid rock'n'roll definition and a top ten like it or not context. I would almost say that he is to jazz/rock, what a Stravinsky did for classical music many years before.
We refuse to look at music in its proper context. If all you hear is a song, then Miles is a nobody, and never sold 1/100 of what some of the rap bands and the young girls sell these days! Which means, he's worthless! But then, in those days, black music was not at Kmart either!
Ohhh sure!
Edited by moshkito - December 08 2014 at 10:33
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: December 08 2014 at 10:37 |
Miles is on here because a couple of his albums pioneered jazz fusion. Jazz fusion is on here because jazz fusion had a mild to moderate influence on some of the seminal prog acts.
Nobody ever claimed that prog archives selection process is consistent or makes any sense.
That said, it is nice to have a convenient resource like prog archives for the groups that are listed.
But did Miles make progressive rock? *giggles like a schoolgirl*
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moshkito
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Posted: December 08 2014 at 10:37 |
Catcher10 wrote:
Man With Hat wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
This is why we have JMA website for these discussions....it should be moved there, this is PA. |
Except davis is here... |
And there, here cause PA started before JMA.....clearly there are fans everywhere. IMO he does not belong in Proto-prog....by definition makes little to no sense |
I don't enjoy the JMA site as much, besides the fact that it is kinda hidden and PA does not help it anymore than they help PA. There were some folks there that post here, I think I remember, but in general I found the same thing here ... there is no international music or jazz ... it's all the same thing, and that got me ticked off!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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The.Crimson.King
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Posted: December 08 2014 at 12:19 |
From the PA home page:
"PROG ARCHIVES intends to be the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource."
Based on that, I never thought Miles should be here...
Edited by The.Crimson.King - December 08 2014 at 12:20
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Svetonio
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Posted: December 08 2014 at 12:47 |
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Miles has an entry in The illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopedia of Rock (Salamander Books Ltd. 1976 /1977) due to his Jazz rock albums released in late 60s / early 70s. It's very clear evidence that Miles was accepted by the rock journalists and the rock audience at the time when he was released e.g. Bitches Brew. So I don't see Miles' entry in the most complete and powerfull progressive rock resource as a scandal.
Edited by Svetonio - December 08 2014 at 12:47
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TODDLER
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Posted: December 08 2014 at 13:50 |
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The real connection to Miles Davis and Progressive Rock began when Miles hired very young musicians Herbie Hancock, John McLaughlin, Billy Cobham, and Tony Williams later worked with Alan Holdsworth in Tony Williams Lifetime and Holdsworth had worked in Progressive Rock bands. All of these musicians went on to forming Jazz Fusion bands like Weather Report, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Return To Forever, and loads of solo efforts of their own. They had learned something unique from Miles Davis prior to forming these bands. Some different ideology about music that came from the Miles school which delivered part of the inspiration to create new ideas on their own. This particular style of playing crossed over into Progressive Rock in the 70's when Jazz Fusion gained some popularity... I would describe it's style to be found 25% of the time in some Prog masters music and others increasingly more. Phil Collins playing drums on Argent's Counterpoints sums it up ..as you can hear that style of playing created in the 70's where Rock and Jazz fused to the experimental side of things and you can clearly hear atmospheric soundscapes in the music of Weather Report and Mahavishnu Orchestra that were later adapted for Progressive Rock.
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bhikkhu
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Posted: December 08 2014 at 14:40 |
And what it basically comes down to is the fact that we are fans of Miles. If he wasn't listed we would probably still be having discussions about him in the non-prog forums. So honestly it doesn't bother me at all that he's here. My answer to the question is strictly based on definitions and labeling. For the most part I don't really care. As long as I have a place to discuss all this great music with others who love it as much as I do, I am a happy guy. 
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Rednight
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Posted: December 08 2014 at 16:36 |
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Did you actually just ask that? NO!
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Catcher10
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Posted: December 08 2014 at 17:27 |
The.Crimson.King wrote:
From the PA home page:
"PROG ARCHIVES intends to be the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource."
Based on that, I never thought Miles should be here...
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But the OP is stating Miles should be in Proto-prog, which again based on that definition seems really out of place or stretching it. I think the question of him even being here on PA is another topic and I don't think that is what the OP is asking or stating. When you read that above, really makes you think should he even be listed here....bahhh!!
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Barbu
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Joined: October 09 2005
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Posted: December 08 2014 at 17:28 |
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The.Crimson.King
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Joined: March 29 2013
Location: WA
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Points: 4591
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Posted: December 08 2014 at 17:55 |
Catcher10 wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
From the PA home page:
"PROG ARCHIVES intends to be the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource."
Based on that, I never thought Miles should be here...
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But the OP is stating Miles should be in Proto-prog, which again based on that definition seems really out of place or stretching it. I think the question of him even being here on PA is another topic and I don't think that is what the OP is asking or stating. When you read that above, really makes you think should he even be listed here....bahhh!! |
Well, since I don't think he should be here at all I obviously think proto-prog is an absurd place for him 
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Does Miles Davis belong in Prog?
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