For those who claim music is dying..... |
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Skullhead
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 06 2014 Location: Vancouver BC Status: Offline Points: 160 |
Posted: December 18 2014 at 12:41 | ||
No doubt this is great, but how do you capture the live feel and interplay between musicians that just happens when everyone is in the same room playing together? Isn't that important? Also, the idea of a band could be to have real experts at each position. A player who can really expand on your idea and ad their own creative spin on it so the music takes on a new an exciting life that far transcends what just one person could do. Stevie Winwood did a lot of solo albums where he played all the instruments, but I keep listening to Blind Faith. Stevie can play drums just fine, and guitar also, but he is not Ginger Baker or Eric Clapton either. I guess it just depends upon what one is trying to do and achieve, or how high they set the bar. I love the interview with David Gilmore where he says "When we got to Dark Side, we decided to clean it up and really try to do something great". Edited by Skullhead - December 18 2014 at 12:42 |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20497 |
Posted: December 18 2014 at 16:25 | ||
^I wonder if people had these types of discussions before the advent of recorded music?
Did we become complacent in our ability retrieve and play music that at one time was once performed and left only to memory?
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benbell
Forum Groupie Joined: July 17 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 44 |
Posted: December 18 2014 at 16:37 | ||
Music's not dying, it's just ended up hideously intertwined with business and is in a confused state where it's hard to differentiate the art from the commodity. In my more optimistic moods I think that in time it will separate out again and the mass-produced music will continue its trend into Spotification while people who live and breathe music for reasons other than acoustic wallpaper and fashion will begin to realise that they need to step outside the mainstream to find the stuff that really move them, and to value it and the artists who produce it.
I don't think we'll be seeing a return to the glory years where a musician with no eye on the commercial realities can make a good living any time soon, but we might at least re-enter a time when it's possible to find an audience and to go some way towards covering costs or maybe even funding the next album. As for the multi-instrumentalist vs band thing: having recorded entirely solo for my current album and very much as a band with the previous one, and various versions of in between over the years, I'd say they all have merits and they produce a very different character of results. I'd hope that no matter happens to the music world, both remain possible if you're prepared to work at it. |
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: December 18 2014 at 17:11 | ||
It reminds me of the story of the paintbox. Long ago, in ancient times, each artist was making his paints that had to mix the pigment powder and linen oil and it was an important part of the painting craft; that preparation of the canvas was an important part also, and all of that had to be learned in the workshops of the proven masters. Now anyone can buy the tubes of acrylic and (or) oil paints and already prepared canvas, and to paint. The advantage of ancient times is that the artist as a young man was entered the guild who already had a market. Today the artist is left to himself and as a friend of mine (the Serb who is well-known painter in Paris) told me that today's galleries are taking a money in advance by the artists (and "artists") for an exhibition; the galleries without shame now rent their spaces for those who can pay; 20-30 years ago it should be just a big scandal, as he said. On the other side, the artists have an artistic freedom that never had before, and when I see some magnificent wall paintings by virtualy uknow graffiti artists from my hometown, then I'm sure that Art will never die. However, I strongly believe that the society / goverment, i.e. ministry of Culture, ought to care about the young and gifted artists in all media; the ministry of Culture actually must compensate these wealthy private patrons in the past. The same thing is with these young talented musicians, who play that "popular" music but in the artistic forms as prog, art rock, psych rock, etc., they have to have access to state funds to finance their projects. Also, the ministry of culture of rich countries must finance these major rock festivals, to drive away from the corporate sponsorship and that the artists are selected by the council of the festival; the festivals' councils must be composed of eminent musicians such e.g. Steve Wilson and that kind of guys, altogether with some proven journalists who write about prog and other artistic forms of "popular" music. The space in the media for talented young musicians is very important and it must also be a concern of the ministry of culture. It is, in short & in my humble opinion of a fan, the only way that the artistic "popular" music, including prog of course, relatively quickly gain a much wider audience than it is the case now. But even if all stays like it is now , there will always be those who wanna to express themselves aristicaly; it always was and always will be from caveman to post-modern artists, and for both of them, the art was not their main occupation; so there is nothing to fear of "death of art". Music is not dying, that's for sure. Edited by Svetonio - December 19 2014 at 12:25 |
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TCat
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 07 2010 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 11612 |
Posted: December 19 2014 at 18:27 | ||
Music is not dying.....it's progressing.
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Kati
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 10 2010 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
Posted: December 19 2014 at 20:10 | ||
hahahahaha!!!!! I am laughing here hahaha!!!!! So much hahaha!!! hahaha!!! lol you guys hahaha!!!
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Kati
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 10 2010 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
Posted: December 19 2014 at 20:13 | ||
hahahaha!!!! Reading further post previous comments hahahaha!!! This makes me need to run now to the loo hahaha!!!! brb so funny!
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jude111
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 20 2009 Location: Not Here Status: Offline Points: 1729 |
Posted: December 21 2014 at 23:04 | ||
I have a contrary view. Some of the best music being made today is made by producers rather than instrumentalists. All those years I spent learning to play the guitar... when what I should have been learning was how to use Apple computers *sigh*
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benbell
Forum Groupie Joined: July 17 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 44 |
Posted: December 22 2014 at 03:01 | ||
Ha! Controlling the computer is the easy bit ;) It's harnessing the muse and the other musicians that present the real challenge! But joking aside, I think there's a lot of truth in the idea that a lot of great music is produced by single people with an idea that they want to get across rather than bands who write something together and then rock up to a studio and try to get someone else to capture that on a recording. I'd rest easy on the years playing the guitar though. I don't think there is a better way to learn about how to produce music than by playing instruments. |
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2826 |
Posted: December 22 2014 at 03:57 | ||
Hi Jude, I'm afraid that you not learning to play the guitar isn't really a good basis for then saying "and this is how it's done". ;-)
Ben is 100% right. The "learning to play the instrument" is the easy bit. Takes about 10 years to get to the stage where you think of what to play, and then the notes come out automatically and without any thought. The problem is knowing what to play, and that takes about another 20 years of listening to the background canon of music and getting a feel for things. You may be able to do it in less. Charlie Parker spent 15 hours a day practicing the sax. But there are zero shortcuts. 99% of musicians start off by buying cheap guitars, cheap amps, strumming along or playing tab. They are not *playing the instrument*, they are just doing a kind of paint by numbers. ;-) |
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 26 2005 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 10616 |
Posted: December 22 2014 at 04:02 | ||
Yo, Snoop Progg is in da' house, y'all know what I'm sayin'!
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16148 |
Posted: December 22 2014 at 08:34 | ||
I kinda think that the commercialization of things is hurting the listening ability for many of us. The attitudes about it, are so sad, that it's like you're too stoned to even know the difference and say anything about it.
And it reminds me of one of Guy's greatest lines ever ... when a turkey interrupted him while playing Golden Earring and said that it wasn't rock'n'roll, and Guy said ... who cares! It's great music!
We confuse the two things ... like R'n'R is not music? It's down right silly! Edited by moshkito - December 22 2014 at 08:46 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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jacksiedanny
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 05 2015 Location: Ontario Status: Offline Points: 193 |
Posted: February 11 2015 at 16:50 | ||
Yes, finally after three pages ,we get down to it: the LISTENERS are dying.
....... Blame it on the audience of today. On Junior. Junior of today is not Junior of the 60s. Today's junior is more stressed. His future is much darker than that of the children of the 60s. He is harder, scoffs at the gentle. The vatborn; the cockroach evolves to the point that it can even consume poison. He will grow up to live in his parent's basement. No purchasing a home for him. The gentle family-run megabusinesses are gone. The coldhearted corporate conglomerate just might let Junior in at some point ,but it will casually spit him out ,the time comes. There is no permanence in this Junior's world. He will move from (non-insured) temp position to another. He is a low gypsy.(Possessions -tangibility - kept at minimum to facilitate moving.) There is no devotion towards Junior, so, in bitter return he gives society no devotion. Its an ouroborous perpetually feeding on its own tail. In the same way, Junior of today has no reserves of devotion for music: gone is the idolizing of musicians, the fandom. He has moved his interests elsewhere - maybe to things which can make his resume look good. Music no longer measures-up to this new Junior. It is not as tangible as 70s kids SAVOURING slowly each new release; going to record stores chatfests and breaking down the recent lp release track by track. This devotion is all meaningless to milk-brained, wet-behind-the-ears Junior. If he LOWERS himself at all to post on a music forum., its digs or one-liners. Do you digest and focus proper when your fed Specific and at normal rate?...or when your flooded with nourishment? The internet has devalued music. Music access coming at Junior from all sides - its all too much. Junior flails his arms in anger. How can he focus? Much better/easier to just turn away completely ; to move on to something else altogether... something creamcheese and EASY : the "Lost" series on TV, idolizing politicians...Oprah... To accomodate the higher milk-percent of this new Junior's brain, the music is further dumbed-down in dying attempt to catch his ever-faltering attention. No message in the lyrics and God forbid any of that old folky-fogey protest/social concern lyric bollox! In ever-swirling, ever-speeding-up vortex, the music becomes more and more dumbed-down ritual. The drum beat becomes more and more of the same as we progress from year to year. Soon we shall not even detect a pulse.The vibrations of interest will all converge, coalese to a single Walmart wavelength same from mall to mall. It will be one long, numbing sleep-drone. The music isnt dying. Its the audience that is at fault. Edited by jacksiedanny - February 11 2015 at 16:56 |
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: February 11 2015 at 17:11 | ||
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: February 11 2015 at 18:19 | ||
That was ... amusing.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16148 |
Posted: February 11 2015 at 23:11 | ||
And it has never been dead. It's our ears that get attached to one or two things and eventually lose the ability to listen to something else out there, specially in a different country. It's a real shame, for example, that so many folks talk about Genesis, and so few can spend their time talking Ange or Banco, and they are both far superior to Genesis, except fame and media hype! Music has always been around and available ... if only we are strong enough to listen to different things, because they will not be the same as the ones you know!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16148 |
Posted: February 11 2015 at 23:35 | ||
I disagree to a point. Many years ago, the government started taking money out of schools and the first things that went, was not religion ... it was the arts! In America, because in Europe there is a higher perspective on the arts and appreciation that America does not have because of the TV and its "stars". That is likely to have an effect! And sooner or later it will be noticed. However, it did not stop the "metal" and the "grunge" scene from waking up, and that pretty much tells you that any art scene, music or not, is generally a socially relevant affair, and it evolves from there. But, if you tell me that NY, LA, SF or London, or Paris, or Berlin, or Rome, or Tokyo are void of music, then you are not listening, is all anyone here can say ... the problem is, that the media we read is in English and that removes several of those cities out of the equation and we do not appreciate the rest ... perhaps one should take a look at DAMO's blog in this board and realize how much music is on the other side of the continent, that we do not even bother checking out!
Again, this is a social issue, in general. If there is nothing to fight for ... what you gonna write about? Yourself? Not many are good enough about that, and then it becomes a song about a past lover and a lot more that is often ... boring ... for my ears, but I accept the writing, because at least it is being done. However, the content, is often bland for my tastes, and does not provide an answer, only a cop'out!
I think this is because the "DAW" is too new and once they stop being so metronomic and based on a beat, that things can develop further. As an example, all it does is help new drummers not learn about the sensitivity in the music, and continue bashing the snare drum all the time, and there are no changes except the usual 4th beat cymbal, or the typical old DT drummer ... 2 cymbals instead ... os something that is even more metronomic. I have often stated that if all you need is a metronome, why the heck are you wasting a musician? There was a time, and place for the beat. And there will be a time and place, when the beat will finally become secondary and less of an issue. I often joke ... try to drum to "The Rite of Spring" ... and if you depend on the snare drum so much, you will kill it! You have to learn to move around more and stop counting so much so you can elevate the quality of the music ... but nooooo ... most drummers mentioned and discussed here are more methematicians, than they are drummers in my book! They can not feel the music or its changes! They don't know how, and their only learning has been to count. As an example, I like to throw in Mani Neumeier, who often jokes that he doesn't drum with the bass player and make it the "rhythm" section, as the Bass Magazine loves to tell you and only discuss those players. He plays up to and against the guitarist and anyone else in the band, and yet, he is not out of time, or place! And folks like Pierre Moerlin did the same thing. It was not about the "beat" ... it was about the music ... and there is a huge difference. I can see why bands like Led Zeppelin had to die and did not continue without their favorite drummer, because no one else could adjust as well, as Bonzo did, specially in a live setting ... when he was usually better live than on record. Many bootlegs showed that at the time, though today, the ability to see and show something like that in the old days, is hard and different. You just don't see it happening today, but a lot of that could be because of the DAW, and the ability to learn and adjust faster, where the TEAC's of old was way slower a process to break down. And no schooling by people that can help with music knowledge instead of simply referring to the easiest music there is. It almost takes no talent these days to put together a rock band! The music isnt dying. AND the audience that is NOT at fault. It's the inherant learning process that is below par and not able to translate the other levels in music, and the 4/4 and basic process in rock music, or jazz (specially these days!!!), is not demonstrating a whole lot of music knowledge beyond the notes and the staff. The day, they learn to leave all that behind, is the day that a new "progressive" music will come alive. BUT, you have to be strong inside to do it, because it will take a while for folks to get a feel for it. All the great bands that we love went through that ... but today, few of them have the ability to actually listen to their music, and not the beat ... so to speak!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 6747 |
Posted: February 12 2015 at 00:05 | ||
The last Grammys show on TV demonstrated that music still has some legs.
I haven't seen so many rock-band format performances on the Grammys in ages! Hard rock stalwarts AC/DC opened the show to accolades, and they did a fine job in warming things up! There was only a hat-tip to anything prog or prog-related, but Annie Lennox just killed her performance, and Jeff Lynne with ELO were welcomed warmly! If electric guitars, basses, drums and keyboards are still made, then there are people who will play them. I sense that we may be about ready for a new wave of prog music, given that the public has tired of rap and other forms of music. Now, if only the kids would put down the video game controllers and pick up the drumsticks!
Edited by cstack3 - February 12 2015 at 00:05 |
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The Sloth
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 05 2013 Status: Offline Points: 115 |
Posted: February 12 2015 at 00:32 | ||
Just a few random thoughts -
Prog music was pop music when there were no VCRs, internet, smart phones. On the kids' menu: drugs and utterly free time. People aren't as open-minded these days because we aren't starved for stimulation. Kind of obvious, but I personally think the old record company infrastructure is what gave every serious music lover today such strong opinions, and the flood of new independently released stuff, no matter the quality, will inevitably be a faded memory in the future. There's too much of it, and very little of it gets the push. Things being sold aggressively to the masses is how they become remembered and "timeless," like it or not. That's also how the quality was kept up - you had to be worth it for a record company to back you. You might think Abba is crap, but it's high quality crap. You can't say the same for the thousands of C tier Abba wannabes I could find (the modern equivalent), if only I'd just take the time to search them out. I believe music essentially being free has removed the phrase "discerning taste" from the equation, both on the listening and creative end.
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Metalmarsh89
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 15 2013 Location: Oregon, USA Status: Offline Points: 2673 |
Posted: February 12 2015 at 00:50 | ||
I'd argue that pop music is a genre, while popular music is a sign of the times. |
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