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Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
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Points: 5898
Posted: December 21 2014 at 08:15
Sounds more like the name of an exceptionally goofy grindcore/powerviolence band.
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
If the Television song Polymorphia posted is indicative of their style, I'm definitely voting for Siouxsie. Surprised the OP didn't post the video for Spellbound by the way.
I don't follow. The Television song posted was See No Evil?
Oh bugger, semantic confusion. PA member Polymorphia posted the television song See No Evilnot the Television song 'Polymorphia' posted being indicative of any style etc
Joined: April 12 2008
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Points: 5898
Posted: December 21 2014 at 09:01
Sorry for my misunderstanding in turn, I thought you were arguing that Television were objectively better than S&TB. (and like I say I find the two bands too radically different for that to be an easy argument to make)
Was actually pretty close to starting a separate thread about S&TB, as I've been listening to them a lot over the last couple weeks, but thinking that'd come across as somewhat awkward now. I still haven't heard the later more psychedelic poppy albums in the style they switched to after Dreamhouse. Apparently it was for that and not their early punkier style that made them popular in the US, whereas in the UK they had lots of hit singles from the beginning and onwards?
Edited by Toaster Mantis - December 21 2014 at 09:04
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Joined: November 06 2012
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Points: 8856
Posted: December 21 2014 at 09:05
Toaster Mantis wrote:
If the Television song Polymorphia posted is indicative of their style, I'm definitely voting for Siouxsie. Surprised the OP didn't post the video for Spellbound by the way.
I just decided to post the version with the album cover seeing all the options on Youtube. Nice video though.
"See No Evil" is indicative of Television's style, and you are welcome to vote based on that; however, I would definitely recommend listening to Marquee Moon sometime in your life.
Sorry for my misunderstanding in turn, I thought you were arguing that Television were objectively better than S&TB. (and like I say I find the two bands too radically different for that to be an easy argument to make)
Yep, they're apples and oranges really and it seems slightly perverse that a non punk US rock band who remained a non punk US rock band even when they reformed in 1992 are compared to a UK punk band who were subsequently assimilated into the Goth sphere. Tom Verlaine has never needed corpse paint, he's always looked to be at death's door.
Edited by ExittheLemming - December 21 2014 at 13:39
Joined: November 06 2012
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Posted: December 21 2014 at 14:21
^Except that Television was involved with the New York punk scene even not being representative of the genre itself. Tom Verlaine helped pen tunes for Patti Smith and with Richard Hell once being a member. As such, their style is rightly considered as "post-punk" like the Banshees'.
^Except that Television was involved with the New York punk scene even not being representative of the genre itself. Tom Verlaine helped pen tunes for Patti Smith and with Richard Hell once being a member. As such, their style is rightly considered as "post-punk" like the Banshees'.
Very few artists who played at CBGBs during the late 70's were part of a 'Punk' scene. (except the Ramones, and the mercifully forgotten 'Dead Boys' and 'Misfits' perhaps) This confusion even extends to the New York Dolls who are often cited as 'Punk' instead of the rather more fitting 'Proto Glam' It took until the early 80's before what might be deemed hardcore punk became synonymous with the venue. The Talking Heads, Blondie and Patti Smith were clearly hippy apostates who swapped seats of learning for the barbers chair. You are correct that the only member of Television with an extant contribution to 'Punk' was Richard Hell, who instigated ripped clothing and it's nihilistic mindset. He was also a crap bass player and singer so was eminently overqualified for the role. I'm always surprised that Malcolm Mclaren didn't take him back to London to provide a toilet trainer for Sid and Nancy. Interestingly, the reptilian svengali McLaren once managed the New York Dolls but was turned down flat by Television to perform the same function. The rest is... revisionist history
"We felt outside of that,"he says."I don't think any of those bands (Patti Smith, Blondie, Talking Heads, Voidoids) were punk and everybody knows they're not punk so it's kind of a dead issue. Nobody calls those bands punk, outside of maybe the Ramones." - Tom Verlaine
Edited by ExittheLemming - December 21 2014 at 17:19
Joined: November 09 2014
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Posted: December 21 2014 at 20:31
^ That is the strange, unique, and in the end wonderful thing about the old NYC punk scene - half the bands were punk, the other half were any number of something different. Probably better called an "alternative" scene.
Went with the Telly. Marquee Moon is just excellent, and did so much to move forward post - regardless of if it even can be counted as such - and helped spur on R.E.M.
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Posted: December 22 2014 at 04:03
Television are like The Fall and Père Ubu in that they actually predate the punk subculture becoming its own distinct identity, so calling them "post-punk" strikes me as rather awkward. Maybe "art punk" would be more appropriate, as snobby as that categorization might sound? (as it implies that regular punk isn't art)
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Television are like The Fall and Père Ubu in that they actually predate the punk subculture becoming its own distinct identity, so calling them "post-punk" strikes me as rather awkward. Maybe "art punk" would be more appropriate, as snobby as that categorization might sound? (as it implies that regular punk isn't art)
Perceptive post certainly as I had never drawn the obvious parallels between Television and the Fall before (both being habitually and lazily associated with all that is 'NY CBGB/Madchester' and all that is Proto Punk, Punk and Post Punk?. Perhaps it's a litmus test of any band's worth that they completely flount our attempts to classify their output as even a 'closest fit' to any available revisionist receptacle. Be that as it may, I've always held firm to the view that Punk in the US was an artistic/bohemian attitude which drew from literary sources like Rimbaud, Baudelaire, Artaud, Genet et al while the UK version was a distinctly left wing political phenomenon. The Brits (rightly or wrongly) viewed their stateside contemporaries as no more than careerist nihilists who would jump ship to become tomorrow's cultural columnists and chat show hosts while they got on with the more pressing business of bringing about lasting social change.
Just for the sake of clarity I'm happy to confirm that 'Punk' originated in the USA and was subsequently imported to the UK by the otherwise, frankly spurious Malcolm McLaren
Edited by ExittheLemming - December 22 2014 at 05:32
Joined: April 12 2008
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Posted: December 22 2014 at 05:40
I'm not really sure about that, the most overtly political of the early punk bands were the MC5 who came from the United States with the band's very name being a reference to their hometown of Detroit, Michigan. I can also think of plenty overtly political US hardcore punk bands from the 1980s: Black Flag, Born Against, The Dead Kennedys, Dirty Rotten Imbeciles, MDC, Minor Threat etc. even if they weren't quite as well-defined in their ideology as the UK crust/anarchopunk movement as exemplified by Amebix, Crass, Discharge, GBH or The Subhumans.
Maybe it's that the British groups had somewhat more articulated ideological standpoints and their music also often was a degree more extreme which creates that impression?
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
I can't really comment on the MC5's Punk credentials as I thought they were a bit s.h.i.t. and always considered them a Psyche/garage band a la the Seeds, 13th Floor Elevators etc as illustrated on the various Nuggets compilations. As to their political agenda I will accede to your considerably better researched judgement. The Fugs were also more than just a tad s.h.i.t. and had a subversive left wing orientation (not dissimilar to the equally wretched Firesign Theatre) but clearly neither were the stuff from which Punk was hewn. The oft cited Stooges and New York Dolls had all the political nous of bare chested radio presenters and obeyed to the letter Rawk's well established star system protocol . (Turning rebellion into money - thanks Joe) The argument that any US band with an anti authoritarian message who played simple, stripped down rock music are by definition, the antecedents of politically engaged Punk has become very old very quickly and was redundant a LONG time ago. What's also just on the cusp of weird is that the avowedly archetypal US punk band circa 1979 'The Ramones' had as their creative fulcrum and spokesperson, one hard nose tea bagger in Johnny Ramone who embodied the American dream of prosperity and success and an upwardly social mobility facilitated by a social system we are asked to believe both he and his fan-base professed to abhor. The kid is alright? (thanks Pete) The USA has NEVER had a left wing government and precisely no-one can name a Punk band (before or since) who endorsed the regime of Margaret Thatcher.
Edited by ExittheLemming - December 22 2014 at 07:15
Joined: April 12 2008
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Posted: December 22 2014 at 07:01
The MC5 started out as more of a political activist group than a music project, I think Crass had a similar genesis actually, and to be honest I don't like their artistic output as much as The Stooges precisely because it goes into message-before-music territory a bit too often for my taste.
I still think it's an exaggeration to say the US punk scene wasn't a political subculture, even though there's a kernel of truth to it in that those punk bands who had the best thought out political stances in their lyrics were mostly British.
Edited by Toaster Mantis - December 22 2014 at 07:52
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Joined: May 03 2011
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Posted: December 23 2014 at 14:42
memowakeman wrote:
Siouxsie :)
Same here. Even their mid 80's onward albums always had at least a few cool tracks even if I'm not a huge fan of that era. That 'Juju' album is utter greatness and even influenced The Smith's Johnny Marr...and Morrisey was also a fan of it.
Joined: November 06 2012
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Posted: December 23 2014 at 15:36
Prog Sothoth wrote:
memowakeman wrote:
Siouxsie :)
Same here. Even their mid 80's onward albums always had at least a few cool tracks even if I'm not a huge fan of that era. That 'Juju' album is utter greatness and even influenced The Smith's Johnny Marr...and Morrisey was also a fan of it.
Yep. John McGeoch is brilliant (and John McKay too).
If the Television song Polymorphia posted is indicative of their style, I'm definitely voting for Siouxsie. Surprised the OP didn't post the video for Spellbound by the way.
I just decided to post the version with the album cover seeing all the options on Youtube. Nice video though.
"See No Evil" is indicative of Television's style, and you are welcome to vote based on that; however, I would definitely recommend listening to Marquee Moon sometime in your life.
my vote will always go to Siouxsie and the Banshees...
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Siouxsie and the Banshees vs. Television
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ExittheLemming wrote:
