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Topic ClosedHow to Promote a Prog album in 2015

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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2014 at 11:14
Yep, them Koreans are at it again, Guldbamsen. They probably know I've got a Team America DVD downstairs somewhere. ;-)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2014 at 11:17
PS Update - just checked, 4125 views to that thread I mentioned where I offered the album for 50% - two downloads. 

Them's the odds for musicians, folks ! ;-)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2014 at 12:20
Then again, Heliopolis and Major Parkinson have both sold out the first pressing of their albums, so it's not entirely impossible to sell these days.
Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2014 at 12:41
Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:

Seek out labels for starters, as they will aid in the promotion. Make sure to track down a label that release music of a similar kind to what you explore though, as most labels have an established audience with a certain taste. No matter how good you are, releasing an avant album on a neo label pr the other way around will be of limited use as far as sales to the label's main audience is concerned.
Use forums to instigate interest. Provide free downloads to those who want to review, and possibly reward some of the best reviews (as in best written - not most positive) with physical copies after the reviews have been made. See to it that the album can be found in the vital database websites of possible (Allmusic, rateyourmusic, genre sites like Progarchives).
Work at establishing an audience. Use facebook in a planned manner. A fixed weekly update, run some competitions (monthly?), be visible and communicate with your fans. Make them feel special, (appear to) be personal - everyone loves to feel seen and heard.
Use services like progstreaming for a planned promotional push. Schedule it first for launch, and then for when reviews start coming in if possible. The latter is more important than the former if you have to choose.
Use internet and fm radio stations. Make appearances in chats, do interviews if offered. Again a case of staying visible.
Be aware that an audience is built one person at the time. Most big bands have used many years and several albums to build their fanbase. Take one step at the time, think and plan long term.

All of this is skimming the surface of course, The start of the A in the ABC on how to build a career. I assume many can come with more elaborate and better worked out thoughts on the matter than these small details I took from the top of m head just now.


Thanks for the good advice Windhawk.

This is a topic I find interesting because I know quite a few prog musicians who don't do anything with their music.  I have a friend who spends all year doing an album and gives a copy away to friends for Christmas.  I just received my 10th album from him.  I've told him to get his stuff out there. It's actually really good.  But his response is similar to others on this thread.  Why waste one's time to sell 3 copies?

Back on topic, what are the quality prog labels that are still in existence?  What should a new or young artist expect from them assuming a match is made between artist and label?

It sounds like putting music out there for free is doing just that.  I would think touring is still the best way to gain a following.  Always has been I would imagine. 

What if a band took the approach of not participating in the free downloading and only played live and sold their music at shows?   Maybe on formats that are not easily shared like vinyl or cassette tapes?

Word of mouth being the age old promoter, and I think could spread quickly with the internet faster than the old days?

Will clubs book and pay a new prog band enough to get them from point A to point B, gas, room, food and guitar strings?


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The Dark Elf View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2014 at 13:05
Lie. Say it's a pop album featuring Ariana Grande, Pitbull and produced by Pharrell. You'll probably sell several thousand before anyone figures it out. Then the bad publicity will sell even more.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2014 at 14:30
Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

What's the point really? Are you suppose to find a career , working you're ass off in school, giving up almost all of your important devotion to an instrument ....to later finance some "happy medium" of Prog ? Rap is out there with Rap stars who swing their little closed fingertips and palms of their hands in your face with an attitude that sucks. Then they have the nerve to mix our music with theirs. Samples of the worse music we grew up with that we found laughable in high school. HUH? Doesn't anybody on this site get that? Too many people ON this site are under the impression that an artist is suppose to work their ass off with a separate career to finance their Prog career and ...excuse me....but that's just ignorant. Truly the most ignorant thing I've ever heard. AND ALL FOR THE SAKE OF ART? What a laughable thing to even consider in 2015. You'll make nothing to re-invest in your next album and you will lose the chance to provide for your family and yourself just for the SAKE OF ART? Remember the F word?  Well it's needed to be applied to that kind of quest.


So - basically you say that the musicians should ditch prog and do rap instead...???


No not at all! But if the above circumstances is all that the music industry in the U.S. can offer, then it is foolish to take a plunge yourself, spending thousands, going in debt and ending up on the street for the sake of art and in the meantime, all the people who bought your cd of Prog, see you homeless and are not lifting a finger to help you. There is a lesson to be learned in that. Self-preservation devices to fight against the forever commercialized United States Of America. Today, in this country..it's all about having some OTHER kind of career to finance your music and that's complete bullcrap to me. No musician on earth who has talent as wide as infinity should have to go through something like that. If you meet up with a musician/writer who already has an abundance of money flow and wants to invite you along to record Prog music...then go for it!.......but for Heaven's sake, how could anyone with a brain expect an independent musician to release a Prog cd at the drop of a hat? You might as well jump off a bridge..as to go in a financial hole that forever invades your life that every 7 years when you file bankruptcy. And....if you can't afford to file, then banks will not only chase you down, but make it difficult for you to live an average life.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2014 at 14:42
Does it really cost that much to make a prog album?
Can't most just do it on their computer nowadays?  You don't even need to press CD's anymore.
Can't you just upload the songs onto the web for sale or for free download?

If you are doing electronica prog then you don't even need to buy an instrument.  I would think you might even get some kind of a following if you are handy at all the social media stuff..

Just saying..

You might not be making Tales from Topographic Oceans, but maybe something more modern sounding that this generation might think is cool and amazing.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2014 at 02:46
Thanks to the kind person who did a download last night, by the way !

Skullhead - "If you are doing electronica prog then you don't even need to buy an instrument. "

Er, afraid not, Skull - if only. Have a listen to one of my tracks. Most are done using VST instruments - "virtual studio technology" - software - with some proper instruments (sax, hand percussion, guitars) thrown in. 

https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/album/trip-hazard

Right, firstly that track starts off with a sound effect. Luckily, I found a free sample and processed it. Otherwise it'd cost money. The riff which starts a few seconds in is done on an Arturia ARP2600 VST which cost me about $175 several years ago. Within a few seconds, a drone starts up, this is on a GeForce ImpOscar II - which cost about $150. This is also slaved to an Arturia Juno 60 - $175, about, and a Polivoks, which I got for free. Applied to all of this are innumerate mixing and mastering tools, say about $500, and the drums haven't even started yet. ;-)

Oh yes, before I've even started, Cubase Pro 8 is $700. The PC to run it on, with professional soundcards, MIDI interfaces etc, is a small fortune....... yes, you can use free VST's and cheap and horrible editors, but it ends up sounding...... cheap, for some reason. 

Believe you me, there is no cheap way to record an album of any complexity. There is an enormous gap of understanding between listeners and musicians. Listeners tend to think that you can go down the shop, buy a Squier Strat and a 5 watt practice amp, strum a few chords and wake up playing like Jimi Hendrix and then the first gig happens the weekend after, with you all able to give up the day job a fortnight later. Er, no. ;-)


Edited by Davesax1965 - December 22 2014 at 03:07

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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2014 at 02:58
To quote Skullhead again... sorry, Skull, not picking on you but merely pointing out....

"I would think you might even get some kind of a following if you are handy at all the social media stuff.."

I am, I've got 50 *real* followers on my Bandcamp page. If I was honest, I could get a lot of fake followers by spending a few quid, but that's both dishonest and wouldn't actually generate any sales. If I was even more honest, most of the followers barely read what I put out, it's a complete waste of time which I could spend on writing music instead. The reason why they're there is to vacuum up anything I might release for free - well, a fair proportion of them, anyway. THEN they'll say "When's the next gig, Dave ? "

Well, let's see. Going to need a synth or ten. Hmmm, Synthesizers.com system 110, that's $17,000. PA hire. $1500. Lighting hire. Ditto. Venue hire. Transport. Another $40k for kit. Connecters. Gaffer tape. Publicity. Ticket sales. 

What's in the bank ? $350 from last album sales. Oh yes, and no one would actually turn up to a gig at a specific location and date as the music fan base (of 50) is world wide, too. And people just like saying these things. I would absolutely lose my shirt doing a live gig. As in "serious financial problems."

So, at this point, you think "I could stop writing music and ramp up the publicity" - but it's frankly just not worth it. The end goal is too far away, the fan base is far too thin, and - honesty time, I'm primarily in this to write music for myself, not for anyone else (otherwise I'd be commercial) - hence my comment above that perhaps a lot of prog musicians will just write for themselves, and let any potential audience come and find them. It is absolutely impossible nowadays to survive writing non commercial music without enormous financial backing behind you. And this may be a good thing artistically for musicians, who can now do what they want, but - "don't give up the day job". 

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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2014 at 03:06
"What if a band took the approach of not participating in the free downloading and only played live and sold their music at shows?   Maybe on formats that are not easily shared like vinyl or cassette tapes?

Word of mouth being the age old promoter, and I think could spread quickly with the internet faster than the old days?"

.... Hello, Skull..... :-)
OK, perhaps you understand now that a live gig is a virtual financial impossibility for a Prog band. Rock band, yes, prog rock, no. 
Vinyl. OK, Minimum pressings are 500-1000. This will cost you a fortune. How many of your audience (of zero) have a record player ? - and will shell out the enormous amount which is asked for vinyl nowadays ? 
If even one does, there exists the risk that they then convert it to MP3 format and slap it on a torrent site. 

Word of mouth, yes. Right, take one location, like Manchester, UK. City, 2.5 million people. There is probably a one year waiting list to play adequate sized gigs to break even (you don't play prog rock in a pub) - I would need to devote every single waking moment for a year to sell 500 tickets. You wouldn't do enough gigs to build up the momentum for anything to spread by word of mouth. Smaller towns ? Macclesfield, 35,000 people. Zero fan base. Zero venues. Etc. 

What all this amounts to is a hugely complicated situation where the musician is not actually playing music but running around in little circles trying to get 1001 things sorted out, with zero real prospect of any long term success.

And I'd rather sit at home and play the music. ;-)

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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2014 at 03:10
PS If you'd like to fund a vinyl pressing for me, you can do the sales and we'll split the profits 50/50. Deal ? ;-)
(Please say no. Honestly.) ;-)

500 12" records - here's a cost generator - 

http://www.urpressing.com/quotegen12.php

Really, look at the best part of $1700-1800. And 500 is the minimum order anywhere. 
So, now, nearly two grand lighter, you're sitting at home with a specialist product that you can ship to Joe Public at $20- 25 per unit. (Take out shipping costs, of course. ) Joe Public hasn't bought your downloads for a fiver, so it's a bit presumptive to think he'll now pay 5 times the amount, and he's 99% unlikely to have a record player. 

It all becomes a bit of a no hoper. After several months surrounded by cardboard boxes full of unsold records, you try and shift them en masse via online record shops. You may make $1 profit each, if you're lucky, or more likely a reasonable loss, as the record shop won't be able to ship them, either. 

These are the kind of financial considerations you come up against when you do music. 



Edited by Davesax1965 - December 22 2014 at 03:36

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benbell View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2014 at 03:29
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

OK, perhaps you understand now that a live gig is a virtual financial impossibility for a Prog band. Rock band, yes, prog rock, no.


OK, I'm going to have to disagree on this one ;)

My band were in the Catch-22 situation of needing gigs under the belt before anyone in a suitably sized venue would book us. (We couldn't play small venues because our stage footprint conformed to prog stereotypes ;)

We tracked down and booked a venue, we printed tickets, publicised it, got friends-of-friends to help out with lighting and sound in exchange for returned favours, and at the end of it all we actually came out very slightly in profit. Now we were lucky in some ways, but in other ways we were just determined and worked damned hard to make it happen. It isn't something that will work for everyone, but neither is it a financial impossibility.

For my current project, on the other hand, live promotion is a non-starter because it's a solo project and there is no band to play it live, so I too have to look for other ways to be heard.

The music scene is a very challenging place to try to make any impression these days, it's true. There are loads of things stacked against you no matter how good you are, but I don't think there's a need for the doom-and-gloom "it'll never work" attitude. If you don't try something then you can absolutely guarantee it won't work.

Sadly, it helps to have a mindset where you're making the music primarily for pleasure rather than with with the added expectations of quitting the day job, but that's a long way from saying you should give up on trying to get heard, or that you should just stick it on a torrent site and be done with.


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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2014 at 03:40
I need shed loads of electronic equipment, Ben, lighting rigs galore, as it's more "Tangerine Dream / Hawkwind" based. Everyone would stay at home, stoned. File under "disastro". 

Perhaps I do come across as a bit cynical, but I am writing very niche music, and - even with good reviews, my personal reality is 4000 hits / 3 paid downloads. This is with 40 years experience in music, by the way. I've tried most of the different approaches.... and whilst some work, some don't, I've realised that I'd rather play music and the publicity / money et al is very secondary, if of any importance whatsoever. :-)

As a PS, if you're in London or commutable, it's potentially do-able. Macclesfield ? Nope. ;-)


Edited by Davesax1965 - December 22 2014 at 03:41

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2014 at 04:29
Ah, sorry Dave. No, it may be impossible for you personally to play live — I'm not going to argue with that — but I had read it as more general advice to prog bands looking to promote music in 2015.

On that general question I'd still say don't discount any possibility out of hand. Listen to what's worked for other people and how they made it work and try to make those things work for you. But don't expect overnight success :)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2014 at 05:51
Absolutely, mate. ;-)

As Ben says, you have to be creative. I'm in Sales and Marketing as a day job, I know a lemon when I see one, and I am that musical lemon. ;-)

Let me give you all a Modest Proposal. Ready ??? (This is to illustrate the maths behind selling niche music.)

Right, I am going to offer - BUT DON'T ACCEPT - a deal where anyone who wants to print 500 copies of my vinyl album gets 75% of the profits. Sounds good ?
I am going to ask that the person who accepts the deal (a) pays manufacturing costs (b) since I can't have visibility over his sale, accepts to pay me my 25% up front. The album will sell retail at $17.50, but I'll allow the seller to charge what he wants for it. 

So, what sounds good reads like this. 
Manufacturing costs - $2000
500 albums retail at $17.50, sale price $8750
Therefore profit = $6750.
I take out 25%, ie $2187.50

(If I was selling digital downloads, I'd actually make a lot more !!! )

and the seller is left with $4562.50.
Let's take out the cost of posting the album out...... what ? $5 an album, surface mail ?
$4652.50 - 2500 = $2152.50
- not looking too great, is it ? Even if we then add post in to make it worth the sellers while, ie album sells at $17.50 plus $5 surface post, then (a) we've increased the price of the product and made it less saleable... bu the killer is.......

(b) Now the seller has to find 500 Tangerine Dream / Hawkwind fans WITH record players and convince them to buy it. As opposed to finding a torrent on the net. ;-) Sorry, audiophiles, records do NOT sound better than the original recordings (for a number of reasons) and you may find 500 vinyl freaks who'll buy it for audiophile purposes....... I doubt it. 

The likelihood is that the albums end up getting sold en masse to a specialist firm who give you $5 a pop out of the goodness of their own shrunken black hearts. If that. You get back $2500. Out of an investment of $4187.50 - probably a lot more, basically. 

If you want to make money in music then you have to do these kind of calculations. If I thought I could shift 500 albums at $17.50 a pop, I'd be doing it now rather than typing this up. To get to that stage, the publicity required, work put in and risk of something going wrong along the way is more - much more - than I care to bother with. 

It's just simpler to play for my own amusement rather than spend 23 hours a day wading through the internet shark pool. 

Did 75% not sound a good deal at first glance ? ;-) 



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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2014 at 10:01
In the interim, let's suppose that I sell 500 digital downloads off Bandcamp for $9.35 each, ie. full price. No dealing with intermediaries, vinyl pressing companies, no sticking things in the post. 

Do the maths, $4675 direct to me (minus Bandcamp / Paypal admin fees.

I might as well leave the digital downloads up there and let people slowly stumble across them. Whilst NOT chasing around like a blue ar$ed fly and achieving very little, I could be writing music instead. Don't know about people here, but my time is very limited and precious. I can record an album in half the time it takes to promote one. So. Given the sums involved, the effort and the returns.... I'll write my own music and enjoy myself instead. Makes sense to me. ;-)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2014 at 12:30
The numbers game above here also reveals quite a lot about just how much you need to sell to be able to live by making music. And whatever number you can come up with, you'll have to at least double that figure if you're signed to a label, most likely triple or quadruple it.
Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2014 at 13:35
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Lie. Say it's a pop album featuring Ariana Grande, Pitbull and produced by Pharrell. You'll probably sell several thousand before anyone figures it out. Then the bad publicity will sell even more.
This.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2014 at 14:12
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Lie. Say it's a pop album featuring Ariana Grande, Pitbull and produced by Pharrell. You'll probably sell several thousand before anyone figures it out. Then the bad publicity will sell even more.
This.

And give it a title such as "Best of Lady Gaga". 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2014 at 14:14
^No! Gaga is poison after she made that duet album with Tony Bennett! LOL
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