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SteveG 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20474
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 Posted: December 27 2014 at 11:23 |
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^Gerard, I would assume that Waters' was more than a bit tyrannical and Gilmour and Mason could have believed all his boasting on how the band would be nothing without him, at the time. It seems to me that Gilmour grow a backbone after Waters deserted the group and tried to kill the band's name. Sometimes people need a kick in the pants to get moving or to get the message.
Edited by SteveG - December 27 2014 at 11:36
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
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Points: 7750
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 12:09 |
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Clearly this whole thing has rendered many "a loss for words."
All the bitching and fighting between waters and Gilmour is so heartbreaking professionally.
If saner heads prevailed pink Floyd would have a greater and deeper legacy than they already have. Certainly there are so many 'what if's' where by waters and Gilmour could've kept it together, but I am really past all that. I am just grateful for what ze Floyd created while things were really working.
Adam, wish, animals, Darkside and mr. Wall are great treasures even though some tension was still a factor.
Above all and to answer the OP's question I think tension can indeed create some really great music.
Lots of great albums and live performances have been created beautifully with in a band when a couple or if not all band members can't stand each other.
God. Look what THE POLICE were able to do. Lol
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20474
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 12:14 |
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^A friend of mine once said that he was all for creative friction until something catches on fire.
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
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Points: 7750
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 12:32 |
^  yeah letting ride out until it blows up in your face. A well said understanding of all this. Personally I wouldn't be able to do it. I have no tolerance for negativity. I would've been gone after wish you here! Lol
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 12:39 |
 moshkito wrote:
Dean wrote:
 it was the Olympic Stadium in Montreal, not Anahiem, and after playing 55 dates in 1977 it was touring they were fatigued from, not the size of the venues played. But other than that... yeah, whatever, |
It's on the bootleg for anaheim Stadium, Dean! And I was there! |
I stand corrected. When you refer to something in anecdotal form with the assumption that everyone on the planet knows what the hell you are on about then it is natural to assume you were referring to the far more (in)famous Roger Waters' outburst at the Montreal concert, which culminated in Gilmour not to coming back on stage for the final encore.
So, for the benefit of those of us who were not there and/or who have not heard the bootleg recording of said concert, please enlighten us to exactly what occurred that would have invoked Wodger's ire so f'king much. 
Edited by Dean - December 27 2014 at 12:40
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What?
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Rick Robson
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 03 2013
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Status: Offline
Points: 1607
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 13:47 |
moshkito wrote:
....
All in all, after having been together for so many years, this is not a surprise, but if there was one thing that did not go right, it was that Roger did not have the patience to wait for Richard to come up with a new sound bit or detail for another of his songs. There were too many of them, and it was like most of them only needed a filler, which Richard was never very good at, anyway!
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Such an interesting point! I was always amazed by Wright's magic contribution to PF music, for me mainly the progressive parts HAD to have his touch, to say the least. I don't get why the hell they dismissed him out of PF while Waters still was there, quite disappointing that at that time they did not realize Wright was much more essential to the band's music than what they could ever have imagined (my personal feelings anyway), as I always felt between the two RW there were rather different music styles and approaches.
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 "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
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Points: 5898
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 15:18 |
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Obligatory mention of Hawkwind's Dave Brock vs. Nik Turner, right down to the legal battles over the band name that continue to this day. There were some more internal battles after Turner left IIRC, can't remember the exact members involved but the band biography Sonic Assassins goes into details about it. The band does have a very high turnover rate of new members.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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LearsFool
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8617
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 15:26 |
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^ And you can't forget Lemmy's problems with the band. There's a reason they decided to dump him at the Canadian border.
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 5898
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 15:33 |
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I also think it was major hostilities between Deep Purple's Ritchie Blackmore and Glenn Hughes (not 100% sure?) which caused the former to leave the band and form Rainbow instead.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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fudgenuts64
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 17 2013
Location: NY
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Points: 470
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 16:18 |
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Genesis with Hackett leaving of course. Another interesting one to note is Jon Camp of Renaissance who wrote nearly all the material for the bands last album before splitting, Time Line, and of course it flopped.
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jude111
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 20 2009
Location: Not Here
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Points: 1725
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 19:47 |
Gerinski wrote:
BTW I still don't understand how could Gilmour and Mason be so submissive to Waters for The Final Cut and follow him in the dismissing of Wright out of PF. As much as I respect them as musicians, they disappointed me a lot with that, I would be ashamed if I was them. Alright they recovered him for the post-Waters PF and now they have tried to amend it even more with the release of TER but still it's a nasty episode in their career (unless they shared Waters dislike of Wright, which I'm not aware of). |
Didn't I read somewhere that Wright had a big drug problem around this time and needed to get himself straight? Or maybe it was depression?... While I can't remember the specifics, I do have a vague memory of Gilmour saying that he agreed with the dismissal of Wright at the time.
Edited by jude111 - December 27 2014 at 19:50
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 21:40 |
fudgenuts64 wrote:
Genesis with Hackett leaving of course. Another interesting one to note is Jon Camp of Renaissance who wrote nearly all the material for the bands last album before splitting, Time Line, and of course it flopped. |
This is a pretty curious case because neither Camp nor the other two apparently bear any ill will towards his decision to ditch them when they were already struggling and join Cathedral. Nor is he blamed in isolation for the Timeline debacle. But they did not get in touch with him for later reunions, except 2009 which was ultimately done with different musicians because Tout got unwell and Camp wanted to celebrate his 60th birthday. Annie made it plain she simply doesn't get along anymore with Camp. There is something more to it than meets the eye, for sure. The exits of Tout and Sullivan in 1979/80 likewise may have been on a more bitter note than what the band let on. George Starostin, the reviewer, insinuated that Tout was fed up with the new sound and just walked off in the middle of a show to let his displeasure be known.
Re Floyd, I think just the number of albums, and great ones at that, which a band where all members were capable of exerting strong creative influence was able to make is incredible. Of course fans would that it lasted longer, forever and ever but eventually all good things come to an end. Waters strategically took control of the band when they were exhausted after DSOTM. At first, he united them by means of a Barrett-tribute album but later began to pull away with his grand concepts. Part of this may have also been the other members being less than enthusiastic about his concepts and him bulldozing his way through. Gilmour has professed to not like a lot of Wall album.
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Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team
Joined: March 16 2007
Location: Boston
Status: Online
Points: 20177
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 21:51 |
Toaster Mantis wrote:
I also think it was major hostilities between Deep Purple's Ritchie Blackmore and Glenn Hughes (not 100% sure?) which caused the former to leave the band and form Rainbow instead.
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I think it's generally accepted that Richie is a bit of a dickhead to bandmates.
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/
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Stool Man
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 30 2007
Location: Anti-Cool (anag
Status: Offline
Points: 2689
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 22:02 |
Toaster Mantis wrote:
Obligatory mention of Hawkwind's Dave Brock vs. Nik Turner, right down to the legal battles over the band name that continue to this day. There were some more internal battles after Turner left IIRC, can't remember the exact members involved but the band biography Sonic Assassins goes into details about it. The band does have a very high turnover rate of new members.
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Also the band members in the 1992 lineup all disliked each other, eating at separate tables while on tour for example. A friend of mine at the time was one of their roadies on that tour. I wish I could remember more of what he told me at the time.
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rotten hound of the burnie crew
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15916
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 23:14 |
rogerthat wrote:
fudgenuts64 wrote:
Genesis with Hackett leaving of course. Another interesting one to note is Jon Camp of Renaissance who wrote nearly all the material for the bands last album before splitting, Time Line, and of course it flopped. |
This is a pretty curious case because neither Camp nor the other two apparently bear any ill will towards his decision to ditch them when they were already struggling and join Cathedral. Nor is he blamed in isolation for the Timeline debacle. But they did not get in touch with him for later reunions, except 2009 which was ultimately done with different musicians because Tout got unwell and Camp wanted to celebrate his 60th birthday. Annie made it plain she simply doesn't get along anymore with Camp. There is something more to it than meets the eye, for sure. The exits of Tout and Sullivan in 1979/80 likewise may have been on a more bitter note than what the band let on. George Starostin, the reviewer, insinuated that Tout was fed up with the new sound and just walked off in the middle of a show to let his displeasure be known. |
I thought that Tout received sad news mid-performance of his sister passing away ?? Can't recall where I read this info.... And what was the debacle with Timeline ?? The album is half-decent, and there's a video performance from the tour floating around, complete with a young Gavin Harrison on drums !! I like it. I never anticipated I ever hear of tensions within Renaissance.....
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15916
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 23:24 |
jude111 wrote:
Gerinski wrote:
BTW I still don't understand how could Gilmour and Mason be so submissive to Waters for The Final Cut and follow him in the dismissing of Wright out of PF. As much as I respect them as musicians, they disappointed me a lot with that, I would be ashamed if I was them. Alright they recovered him for the post-Waters PF and now they have tried to amend it even more with the release of TER but still it's a nasty episode in their career (unless they shared Waters dislike of Wright, which I'm not aware of). |
Didn't I read somewhere that Wright had a big drug problem around this time and needed to get himself straight? Or maybe it was depression?... While I can't remember the specifics, I do have a vague memory of Gilmour saying that he agreed with the dismissal of Wright at the time.
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I was going to mention that Wright had issues with cocaine around the late-70's. Definitely would've hampered his playing. Listening to many versions of Atom Heart (circa 1970/71), both with and without orchestra, it's nice to hear how the band varied the arrangement each time, and more notably, Wright would play Hammond throughout one version, or his Farfisa on another version. His solo spots were also varied - no two are the same. At least for me, Wright's keyboards were/are the fairy-dust on the entire deal.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: December 27 2014 at 23:47 |
Tom Ozric wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
fudgenuts64 wrote:
Genesis with Hackett leaving of course. Another interesting one to note is Jon Camp of Renaissance who wrote nearly all the material for the bands last album before splitting, Time Line, and of course it flopped. |
This is a pretty curious case because neither Camp nor the other two apparently bear any ill will towards his decision to ditch them when they were already struggling and join Cathedral. Nor is he blamed in isolation for the Timeline debacle. But they did not get in touch with him for later reunions, except 2009 which was ultimately done with different musicians because Tout got unwell and Camp wanted to celebrate his 60th birthday. Annie made it plain she simply doesn't get along anymore with Camp. There is something more to it than meets the eye, for sure. The exits of Tout and Sullivan in 1979/80 likewise may have been on a more bitter note than what the band let on. George Starostin, the reviewer, insinuated that Tout was fed up with the new sound and just walked off in the middle of a show to let his displeasure be known. |
I thought that Tout received sad news mid-performance of his sister passing away ?? Can't recall where I read this info....
And what was the debacle with Timeline ?? The album is half-decent, and there's a video performance from the tour floating around, complete with a young Gavin Harrison on drums !! I like it. I never anticipated I ever hear of tensions within Renaissance..... |
Timeline did badly enough for the band to lose their recording contract and eventually disintegrate. Annie and Dunford disowned it pretty quickly. Camp defended it in a 90s interview but more recently even he gave up on the album. I'd rather much not comment on the videos with Harrison; they were going through a rough phase and I don't want to lash out. As for Tout, if it was simply a question of his bereavement surely he would have eventually been welcomed back when he was ready. Camp-Tout-Sullivan are looking for a young female singer to kick off their own Ren spin off instead of joining the successful touring outfit with Annie as the lone member from mk-ii. Reading between the lines, there may have been 'baggage' dating to the 70s. So once the winning streak that held them together was over, the members, barring Annie and Dunford, began to go their separate ways.
Edited by rogerthat - December 28 2014 at 00:13
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Skullhead
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 06 2014
Location: Vancouver BC
Status: Offline
Points: 160
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Posted: December 28 2014 at 00:47 |
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Very rare that a band makes more than 5 truly great albums. People will argue this, what's great etc.. but to my ears, as soon as a band makes an album that clearly is not as good as the previous ones, it's usually over.
I doubt many would argue that "In through the out Door" was anywhere near the previous releases from LZ.
Nursery Crime, Foxtrot, Selling England, Lamb, Trick of the Tail. Wind and Wuthering was not on par and at best could have been a double album with Trick. But everything after that. Not as good.
Meddle through the Wall is 5 albums.
Yes Album, Fragile, Close to the Edge, Tales, Relayer.
Rubber Soul, Revolver, Sgt Pepper, White Album, Abbey Road. Yellow Submarine? No. Let it Be? No.
ELP,
Tarkus,
Trilogy
BSS
Works? No
To me, and just my opinion, Gentle Giant and King Crimson exceeded the 5 album expectation.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26108
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Posted: December 28 2014 at 02:59 |
Gerinski wrote:
BTW I still don't understand how could Gilmour and Mason be so submissive to Waters for The Final Cut and follow him in the dismissing of Wright out of PF. As much as I respect them as musicians, they disappointed me a lot with that, I would be ashamed if I was them. Alright they recovered him for the post-Waters PF and now they have tried to amend it even more with the release of TER but still it's a nasty episode in their career (unless they shared Waters dislike of Wright, which I'm not aware of). |
the obvious reason is that Waters was the only real creative force in the band and Gilmour knew it so didn't want to take sides against him. This was also a reason why Greg Lake put up with Emerson's 'noodlings' in ELP (Lake didn't like Tarkus at all) imo.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26108
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Posted: December 28 2014 at 03:01 |
Skullhead wrote:
Very rare that a band makes more than 5 truly great albums. People will argue this, what's great etc.. but to my ears, as soon as a band makes an album that clearly is not as good as the previous ones, it's usually over.
I doubt many would argue that "In through the out Door" was anywhere near the previous releases from LZ.
Nursery Crime, Foxtrot, Selling England, Lamb, Trick of the Tail. Wind and Wuthering was not on par and at best could have been a double album with Trick. But everything after that. Not as good.
Meddle through the Wall is 5 albums.
Yes Album, Fragile, Close to the Edge, Tales, Relayer.
Rubber Soul, Revolver, Sgt Pepper, White Album, Abbey Road. Yellow Submarine? No. Let it Be? No.
ELP,
Tarkus,
Trilogy
BSS
Works? No
To me, and just my opinion, Gentle Giant and King Crimson exceeded the 5 album expectation.
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re ELP I guess Pictures at An Exhibition has to be excluded because it was recorded live? It could easily have been a studio recording and the way it was done was as good as any studio recording they made production wise.
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