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verslibre 
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 Posted: January 08 2015 at 14:28 |
 Stool Man wrote:
Just because an album cover is cool doesn't mean the music is even remotely proggy. |
Case in point:
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SteveG
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Posted: January 08 2015 at 14:56 |
^Perhaps Tool needs a Roger Dean cover sleeve. 
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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WeepingElf
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Posted: January 08 2015 at 16:35 |
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Well, I cannot decree that Tool "isn't progressive rock". One of my hobbies is linguistics, and that taught me that a word just means what it is used for. And if people call the kind of music bands like Tool make "progressive rock", then it is called "progressive rock".
I now tend to say that the term "progressive rock" has two meanings, different and probably related. One in classic rock, and one in alternative rock. Hence, I distinguish between "progressive rock of the classic tradition" and "progressive rock of the alternative tradition". Things like that just happen.
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... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."
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Svetonio
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Posted: January 08 2015 at 17:52 |
SteveG wrote:
^Perhaps Tool needs a Roger Dean cover sleeve. |
No, its atmosphere could catch, for example, H.R. Giger (RIP) that he is still alive.
Edited by Svetonio - January 08 2015 at 17:57
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micky
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Posted: January 08 2015 at 18:11 |
WeepingElf wrote:
And if people call the kind of music bands like Tool make "progressive rock", then it is called "progressive rock".
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dude... that was downright profound!!!! Here.. have some McClappies.  I'm no linguist... I still communicate by scratching my ass when I need love..and grunting when I am hungry... but that almost made sense even to me!!
Edited by micky - January 08 2015 at 18:12
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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SteveG
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Posted: January 08 2015 at 19:25 |
WeepingElf wrote:
Well, I cannot decree that Tool "isn't progressive rock". One of my hobbies is linguistics, and that taught me that a word just means what it is used for. And if people call the kind of music bands like Tool make "progressive rock", then it is called "progressive rock".
I now tend to say that the term "progressive rock" has two meanings, different and probably related. One in classic rock, and one in alternative rock. Hence, I distinguish between "progressive rock of the classic tradition" and "progressive rock of the alternative tradition". Things like that just happen.
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There have always been 'alternative' variations on Progressive Rock, WeepingElf, such as Fusion (Jazz Rock), Psychedelic/Space Rock, etc. that went into musical areas that were removed from the more popularly known Symphonic Prog Rock of Yes, Genesis, and the like. With the advancement of these 'sub genres' came an emphasis on more technical playing coupled with more complex rhythmic structures in progressive rock such as the 'sub genres' of Math Rock and Technical Metal, which I feel is part of the makeup of Tool along with their assigned 'sub genre' of Post Rock. No one musical group can be devoid of musical influences or styles of other genres, so PA picks the most outstanding feature of the artist and assigns that artist to a specific sub genre. It's not an easy answer, but in life there's always more flavors than vanilla.
Edited by SteveG - January 08 2015 at 19:28
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Svetonio
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Joined: September 20 2010
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Posted: January 08 2015 at 19:46 |
WeepingElf wrote:
(...)
You may have guessed it: I don't like Tool. Or rather, I don't like what I have heard yet of Tool. I haven't listened to everything they have put out. Just five or six songs from various albums.
But that is not the reason why I don't consider them prog. There is prog that I don't like much, such as most of Steven Wilson's stuff. (...)
Progressive rock, to me, refers to a particular current within rock music that started with bands such as The Moody Blues, Procol Harum and later Yes, King Crimson and Pink Floyd in late-60s England, and spread to other countries from there. And I feel that Tool is, though in some points influenced by it, not part of that current. Nor are those bands who make similar music.
(...)
So, what is this "spirit"? (...)
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First of all, you guys who love so much to enumerate the early prog bands (like you up in your post) as an example of, say, "what is prog really", somehow always forget to mention the Mothers of Invention, who were actually recorded and released the first prog album ever, Freak Out! in 1966. Why this album you guys always forget, if you know that Freak Out! had a tremendous success with prog audiences?Second, there never was one "spirit "of Progressive rock as same as there wasn't e.g. just one spirit of Surrealism. I'll try to explain what I mean. André Breton (February 19, 1896 - Paris, 28 September 1966) was a French poet and critic who was written Manifeste du surréalisme. André Breton, as a main theorist of Surrealism, was insisted on the original line, being disconnected with most of his former friends, e.g. Salvador Dali. Breton wasn't predicted that some artists will use academic realism as a technique for painting their surreal visions. And today Surrealism is widely known by such artists as Dali, not by Breton who had advocated, for example, uncontrolled writing & drawing on paper. Salvador Dali was broke away from the Breton's Surrealist movement in 1931. When Dali went in U.S. and began to work on his large-format hyper-realistic paintings, Breton coined his nickname Avida Dollars as an anagram of Salvador Dali just to denote the idea that Dali sold out. Anyway, for millions of people today, Salvador Dali is the greatest example of Surrealism. But those real fans of Surrealism and who want to really explore and to delve deeper into the genre, they can not ignore André Breton and his Manifeste du surréalisme and to say "f*ck Breton's boring book, only Dali is Surrealism". Or vica versa. It's similar with prog which even don't have something like "Manifeste du prog"; you just need to learn that prog was / is coming from many directions, and that is great thing actually, because it's gonna be pretty boring and very sad that the great genre as prog lives trapped in a cage like a parrot who stubbornly mimics only EL&P, Yes and Genesis, again and again. Last but not least, all of you who advocate such a thesis that only Symphonic Prog (and early Pink Floyd, lol) is Prog, you must not forget the very hard work of PA teams who are, btw, very strictly when it comes to adding bands in the PA database; you can trust me ;)
Edited by Svetonio - January 08 2015 at 19:56
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BrufordFreak
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Posted: January 08 2015 at 20:27 |
^Wow! The best thing I've ever read from Svetonio!
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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HolyMoly
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Posted: January 08 2015 at 20:30 |
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At this moment I am loading up some Tool to listen to tomorrow. It's been a while since I listened to them. My last memory (maybe 2 years ago is when I last tried them) is that they sounded kind of cool but were pretty exhausting. It's an uphill climb because I'm not a natural fan of metal - I only started liking metal when I learned it had become weird and experimental (Sunn 0))), Boris, Ulver, etc), so I don't get the same "thrills" that most people do. If Tool is "weird enough" (and maybe they are), I might just have a chance. One track always comes back to mind - the weird song "Disgustipated" from the Undertow album - that song scared me a bit but it showed me that Tool can be pretty weird when they want to.
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My other avatar is a Porsche
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-Kehlog Albran
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HolyMoly
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Posted: January 08 2015 at 20:34 |
verslibre wrote:
Stool Man wrote:
Just because an album cover is cool doesn't mean the music is even remotely proggy. |
Case in point: |
I happen to love that album, but yeah, it's not prog.
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: January 09 2015 at 02:37 |
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I think Undertow is a somewhat overlooked Tool album Steve. It's not as weird as what came after but it is on the other hand not as exhaustive. The melodies as well as the snarly post-punk feel I get from the guitar make this into one of my faves from them. Then again, it was the first album I got of theirs too, so that might be why I have a soft spot for it.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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tamijo
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Joined: January 06 2009
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Posted: January 09 2015 at 02:40 |
Svetonio wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:
(...)
You may have guessed it: I don't like Tool. Or rather, I don't like what I have heard yet of Tool. I haven't listened to everything they have put out. Just five or six songs from various albums.
But that is not the reason why I don't consider them prog. There is prog that I don't like much, such as most of Steven Wilson's stuff. (...)
Progressive rock, to me, refers to a particular current within rock music that started with bands such as The Moody Blues, Procol Harum and later Yes, King Crimson and Pink Floyd in late-60s England, and spread to other countries from there. And I feel that Tool is, though in some points influenced by it, not part of that current. Nor are those bands who make similar music.
(...)
So, what is this "spirit"? (...)
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First of all, you guys who love so much to enumerate the early prog bands (like you up in your post) as an example of, say, "what is prog really", somehow always forget to mention the Mothers of Invention, who were actually recorded and released the first prog album ever, Freak Out! in 1966. Why this album you guys always forget, if you know that Freak Out! had a tremendous success with prog audiences?
Second, there never was one "spirit "of Progressive rock as same as there wasn't e.g. just one spirit of Surrealism.
I'll try to explain what I mean.
André Breton (February 19, 1896 - Paris, 28 September 1966) was a French poet and critic who was written Manifeste du surréalisme. André Breton, as a main theorist of Surrealism, was insisted on the original line, being disconnected with most of his former friends, e.g. Salvador Dali. Breton wasn't predicted that some artists will use academic realism as a technique for painting their surreal visions. And today Surrealism is widely known by such artists as Dali, not by Breton who had advocated, for example, uncontrolled writing & drawing on paper. Salvador Dali was broke away from the Breton's Surrealist movement in 1931. When Dali went in U.S. and began to work on his large-format hyper-realistic paintings, Breton coined his nickname Avida Dollars as an anagram of Salvador Dali just to denote the idea that Dali sold out. Anyway, for millions of people today, Salvador Dali is the greatest example of Surrealism. But those real fans of Surrealism and who want to really explore and to delve deeper into the genre, they can not ignore André Breton and his Manifeste du surréalisme and to say "f*ck Breton's boring book, only Dali is Surrealism". Or vica versa.
It's similar with prog which even don't have something like "Manifeste du prog"; you just need to learn that prog was / is coming from many directions, and that is great thing actually, because it's gonna be pretty boring and very sad that the great genre as prog lives trapped in a cage like a parrot who stubbornly mimics only EL&P, Yes and Genesis, again and again.
Last but not least, all of you who advocate such a thesis that only Symphonic Prog (and early Pink Floyd, lol) is Prog, you must not forget the very hard work of PA teams who are, btw, very strictly when it comes to adding bands in the PA database; you can trust me ;) |
^^
That was a wonder full post !!
I just like to add, that King Crimson, who is videly accepted as a Prog flagship, even in the 70's opened the doors to a much wider range of prog genres, including experiments with much more that just symp. prog. ; and you could say prog metal, is also building on (or adding too) albums of the Crimso mid 70's.
This is in MHO very much the case when it comes to Tool.
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: January 09 2015 at 02:55 |
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That was a good post, but Freak Out! was never a prog album. Sorry Svet. It was an experimental blues rock album with some avantguarde tendencies thrown in for good measure.....but prog? Definitely no. Forward thinking and one of the most innovative releases of 1966? You betcha!
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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tamijo
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Posted: January 09 2015 at 03:14 |
We only in it for the.... would be the better example, as it is closer related to prog, but then again we are back to the what is prog versus what is proto. Hardly interesting, as it will allways be such a thin line, and is mainly up to what elements of prog you find to be most important.
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: January 09 2015 at 03:16 |
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I agree. Letz be done with all this silliness and get back to the music eh? I'm definitely done with this thread (he says for the second time)!
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Svetonio
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Posted: January 09 2015 at 03:24 |
Guldbamsen wrote:
That was a good post, but Freak Out! was never a prog album. Sorry Svet. It was an experimental blues rock album with some avantguarde tendencies thrown in for good measure.....but prog? Definitely no. Forward thinking and one of the most innovative releases of 1966? You betcha! |
Aha... Well, when do you think that Zappa was deserved to be placed in the progressive rock? with which album?
Edited by Svetonio - January 09 2015 at 03:24
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: January 09 2015 at 03:29 |
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No I didn't say that. The first Genesis album was similarly not the one that cemented them as a prog rock group either.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: January 09 2015 at 03:34 |
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But let's not make this into a Zappa thread. We've got plenty of those already.
Like I said earlier, this all boils down to one's definition of progressive music versus prog, which seems to be the neverending discussion on PA....of which I am getting pretty tired of tbh.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Svetonio
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Posted: January 09 2015 at 03:50 |
Guldbamsen wrote:
No I didn't say that. The first Genesis album was similarly not the one that cemented them as a prog rock group either. |
Guldbamsen, I didn't ask you about Genesis  Let's say that a newbie who just went into prog and asks the Admin of Prog Archives Forum, "please just tell me which Zappa's album is his first prog album, because I can see that Zappa is in Prog Archives, in RIO / Avant Prog section?", what will be your answer?
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: January 09 2015 at 04:10 |
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It doesn't matter Svet. I don't have anything to say in that department. I'm not on the ZART team.....but if you really want to know, I'd say Hot Rats was his first true prog album (at least all the way through. There were hints of it earlier on but they crystallized on that album). Again this is just my opinion. Just because I am an admin doesn't mean that I have any control in these matters. I merely state my opinion like everyone else here😊
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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What is "prog" about Tool and similar bands?
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