Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Why old prog - for me - is better than new prog
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedWhy old prog - for me - is better than new prog

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 910111213 20>
Author
Message
Walton Street View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 24 2014
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 872
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 10:34
Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

Just don't have the money to invest in new prog .
 
that's actually where I am as well ...
"I know one thing: that I know nothing"

- SpongeBob Socrates
Back to Top
Skullhead View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 06 2014
Location: Vancouver BC
Status: Offline
Points: 160
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 11:08
Originally posted by Altairius Altairius wrote:

drprog you might like Diagonal. They sound like one of those somewhat heavy early prog bands with some lingering psychedelia. I can tell it's modern because it's almost impossible to truly sound like a 70's band (even subtle attitudes in the vocals give it away), and I have a particularly sharp sense about this, but they have the sound down and are a genuine entry into that style. They're not a rip of anything.




Doesn't sound like the 70s to me.  Sounds like they are using 70's patches or samples on a DAW.  I get what they are going for, but I don't think you can get that sound without using authentic instruments.  The drums especially give it away as new.  Totally unnatural sounding, especially some of those drum fills.  Doctored to no end.

Why can't a band use authentic instruments from that era?  Record on tape and press on vinyl and just not use DAW?  That is how all those great albums that everyone is still ape over... Tales, Lark's Tongue, Power and the Glory, Passion Play, Foxtrot, Physical Graffiti, Tarkus etc.  It was a way of doing things.  Why can't it still be done that way?


Edited by Skullhead - January 26 2015 at 11:21
Back to Top
Skullhead View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 06 2014
Location: Vancouver BC
Status: Offline
Points: 160
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 11:28
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Skullhead:
There are heaps upon heaps of modern day bands that sound like they're from the 70s:


I could on for a very long time but won't. There are thousands of these bands out there for those of you insist on living in the pastWink (I do so as well but like to keep the line open to the future and beyond)


Agusa sounds better, doesn't sound processed, but the 4 minute intro of the same thing over and over just lost me.  Just not very interesting.

Electric Orange, 8 minutes of psychedelic noodling over straight 4 x 4 meter.  Pretty boring.  Just sounds like a recorded jam.

Wobbler sounds better than the others, but the metal sounding guitar doesn't sound authentic.  It has that modern crunch which feels desperately pandering to the prog metal crowd.  But it has a complexity that sounds interesting. 

Causa sounds like modern neo prog.  Nothing original about it. 

Wobbler wins for me of those.  With a guitar sound that sounded more 70's authentic, it would grab my vintage ear more.

What else we got?


Edited by Skullhead - January 26 2015 at 11:39
Back to Top
LearsFool View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8615
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 12:19
Originally posted by Skullhead Skullhead wrote:

Why can't a band use authentic instruments from that era?  Record on tape and press on vinyl and just not use DAW?  That is how all those great albums that everyone is still ape over... Tales, Lark's Tongue, Power and the Glory, Passion Play, Foxtrot, Physical Graffiti, Tarkus etc.  It was a way of doing things.  Why can't it still be done that way?

Because it's not the '70's anymore, so almost all musical mores have moved on. True analog is left a nice niche. Everyone else is doing different things. And anybody can name albums that are great, classic, etc., in this age. And do you think most of the people who look back on the '70's greats care about them being analog? Absolutely not.


Back to Top
Skullhead View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 06 2014
Location: Vancouver BC
Status: Offline
Points: 160
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 16:03
I think you are missing my point.

I can go out and see a classical music symphony and see 50 musicians using vintage instruments and no one is screaming "get over it with those archaic instruments"

Same thing for a classic jazz ensemble.  I see a nice acoustic piano, upright bass, trumpet, sax, maybe even some classic ES series Gibson guitar.  No one is complaining about it being retro and outdated.

Yet the idea of prog being created with similar instrumentation, everyone gets their panties in a wad because it's not changing with the times and being progressive.

I don't get it personally.

Classical and Jazz use instruments from the era when that style of music was most creative and in vogue.
Why can't prog follow a similar protocol?
Back to Top
LearsFool View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8615
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 16:44
^ It's in the name. While in reality progressive in terms of our genre needn't be innovative - in fact that's a drawback of calling prog prog -, that is a common and acceptable wish.

You'll note that classical and most jazz have barely changed since the '60's and 80's, respectively. And most blues has been stuck in that rut for longer, where they will only use now rare microphones from when Robert Johnson was actually alive.

Now, your analog demands alone aren't actually a problem, but since most people have moved on techwise it's certainly a rare treat - and for both of us. I personally do like listening to modern analog. Change of pace for me.

The fear for others must come from a place of people wishing to stay in the '70's stylistically as well. Including specifically calling for a specific set of instruments to be canon. I'd say you've made your wish for that clear. Blues's rut comes from that place more than their tech choices. And now progheads don't want prog to be the next blues, so in the 2040's the genre isn't mostly stylistic retreaders salvaging Fender Champs while half the people who want them to exist write them off as copycats anyways. And few new fans will be made.

So to an extent they are overreacting. Prog is safe from this - in fact I'd say a bit too safe. And I can also tell that you would like to see some progression, just on analog. But I can see where the argument is coming from. Ultra-Traditionalism is death.

By the way, I'll reiterate my recommendation for The Black Keys' Rubber Factory. Modernised blues rock, but very analog, perfectly lo-fi, and feels wonderfully stuck between old and new.
Back to Top
Skullhead View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 06 2014
Location: Vancouver BC
Status: Offline
Points: 160
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 20:39
The thing is that with DAW, with enough spare time and patience, anything can be done as far as editing, pitch shifters, copy and pasting, auto tune, etc.  When does an artist stop using it?

How were all these great albums done in the past without it? 

I get that they punched and used click tracks, but nothing like what is available today to artists.
So there seems to be this expectation of perfection far and beyond what is reasonably possible for a band to execute live.  Most rhythm tracks on modern releases are so tight they squeak.  It hurts my ears.  It just doesn't sound good and I can't connect to the artist when I hear it.
If I close my eyes, I visualize the artist copy and pasting sound files, I don't visualize then on a stage playing music. 

Roger Waters once made the comment that "if music doesn't move a person emotionally, what is the point?" 

Somehow the older prog seemed to blend emotion with chops and virtuosity much more seamlessly. 

It seems the DAW approach can give the illusion of chops that aren't really there in reality, and it also often takes away from the emotion for various reasons.  So it's often a lose - lose.  But that is just my take.  I know it's not most peoples take.
Back to Top
LearsFool View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8615
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 21:06
^ Even in our DAW age, many artists don't use it to its maximum. Authenticity doesn't only equal analog recording.

As well, not being able to perform a piece live as is is not a bad thing. Artists have been willing to just make album only pieces, or rework a track into a simpler form for live playing. Some excellent results have come from this. For the former, remember Pet Sounds.

And I'm thinking about Nevermind: Nirvana roadtrip it down to Sound City in LA to cut a new album. They have Butch Vig for a producer. Vig ended up having the album produced and mastered to be clean and powerful. For the latter point, "In Bloom" has Cobain's vocals double tracked onto themselves, for instance. It was slick and got an extra boost from a semi-artificial process. But, firstly, it made the album work. And secondly, the band were punks at heart, so live they just played them rough and raw, getting a more natural power on the stage. In fact, Kurt later regretted the extra production, and back during recording had to be coaxed by Vig to do second takes and that multi-track job - convinced to do the latter by being reminded that John Lennon did it, no less.

And that production couldn't hide the emotion, just sand it down a bit.

And a question, now: what do you think about the insane amount of multi-tracking on "Bohemian Rhapsody"? Queen just plain could not play that melodramatic courtroom sequence live.
Back to Top
Kati View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 21:44
One of my ultimate favorite songs in prog history from the 70's to date is July Morning by Uriah Heep, from the start that Hammond Organ by Ken Hensley and David Byron vocals kill me, no matter how many times I hear it, everytime feels so special and good ApproveHeart Great guitaring and bass too awww and more awww and wow!
Here is a live performance, just brilliant! uriah heep - july morning 1972 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzRrGNygjzs
I love everyone, the whole world listening to this! Hug
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 22:05

Why old prog - for me - is better than new prog


Because it's a closed circuit, baby?
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Back to Top
TradeMark0 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: October 26 2014
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 109
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 22:54
Originally posted by Skullhead Skullhead wrote:

I think you are missing my point.

I can go out and see a classical music symphony and see 50 musicians using vintage instruments and no one is screaming "get over it with those archaic instruments"

Same thing for a classic jazz ensemble.  I see a nice acoustic piano, upright bass, trumpet, sax, maybe even some classic ES series Gibson guitar.  No one is complaining about it being retro and outdated.
They are more than likely performing a piece composed in the past. Why would you use different instruments?

Originally posted by Skullhead Skullhead wrote:


Classical and Jazz use instruments from the era when that style of music was most creative and in vogue.
Why can't prog follow a similar protocol?
Contemporary classical composers will use anything as an instrument. I don't think I have heard a prog song that uses a helicopter.LOL
 
I'm not to familiar with contemporary jazz but I could imagine it would have went a similar direction.
 


Back to Top
Altairius View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 14 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 187
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 23:52
Originally posted by Skullhead Skullhead wrote:

Doesn't sound like the 70s to me.  Sounds like they are using 70's patches or samples on a DAW.  I get what they are going for, but I don't think you can get that sound without using authentic instruments.  The drums especially give it away as new.  Totally unnatural sounding, especially some of those drum fills.  Doctored to no end.

Why can't a band use authentic instruments from that era?  Record on tape and press on vinyl and just not use DAW?  That is how all those great albums that everyone is still ape over... Tales, Lark's Tongue, Power and the Glory, Passion Play, Foxtrot, Physical Graffiti, Tarkus etc.  It was a way of doing things.  Why can't it still be done that way?

Diagonal isn't a favorite of mine but I think they sound more 70's than most, even if it's easy to tell that they aren't. I don't have a problem with the standard modern symphonic and other classic style prog bands like the Flower Kings, Transatlantic, Beardfish, Anglagard etc. but they have that slick modern sound so you probably don't like them. I can tell there's some doctoring and so it definitely feels less organic, but I can forgive that if the compositions are good.
Back to Top
dr prog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 25 2010
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2443
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2015 at 01:18
I think the people who can pull off old style prog melodies with old style sound are the ones who aren't interested in music from the last 30 years. I have no problem thinking up busy bass lines, odd timed keys, brass and guitar and busy drums. You've got to think up fun, interesting and nice melodies to be a true progger
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
Back to Top
Skullhead View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 06 2014
Location: Vancouver BC
Status: Offline
Points: 160
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2015 at 02:11
I don't have an issue with what bands do.  It's their music, and I'm sure they are all doing what they think is best for their music.

But I do wonder if there is interest from the prog community in music made in the tradition of the 1970's.  Clearly the 70's prog is going to be at the top of any best of prog list.  I just don't understand why it is so difficult to re create that vibe in the music?  But my feeling is that if a band actually did that, they would be panned by the prog community for being out of touch, out of time, outdated etc.  But the same people who would write them off still love all the old stuff.






Edited by Skullhead - January 27 2015 at 02:13
Back to Top
Skullhead View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 06 2014
Location: Vancouver BC
Status: Offline
Points: 160
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2015 at 02:17
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

I think the people who can pull off old style prog melodies with old style sound are the ones who aren't interested in music from the last 30 years. I have no problem thinking up busy bass lines, odd timed keys, brass and guitar and busy drums. You've got to think up fun, interesting and nice melodies to be a true progger


Do you like Allan Holdsworth?

Any of the more recent King Crimson stuff? Construction of Light etc?


Edited by Skullhead - January 27 2015 at 02:18
Back to Top
Svetonio View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2015 at 02:42
Originally posted by Skullhead Skullhead wrote:

(...)

What else we got?
Try Of Things That Never Were by The Worm Ouroboros, from Belarus.
Back to Top
dr prog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 25 2010
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2443
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2015 at 04:43
Don't mind Holdsworth but he's a bit monotonous though. He's cool with gong and tony Williams

Edited by dr prog - January 27 2015 at 04:46
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23098
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2015 at 04:52
Originally posted by Skullhead Skullhead wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Skullhead:
There are heaps upon heaps of modern day bands that sound like they're from the 70s:


I could on for a very long time but won't. There are thousands of these bands out there for those of you insist on living in the pastWink (I do so as well but like to keep the line open to the future and beyond)


Agusa sounds better, doesn't sound processed, but the 4 minute intro of the same thing over and over just lost me.  Just not very interesting.

Electric Orange, 8 minutes of psychedelic noodling over straight 4 x 4 meter.  Pretty boring.  Just sounds like a recorded jam.

Wobbler sounds better than the others, but the metal sounding guitar doesn't sound authentic.  It has that modern crunch which feels desperately pandering to the prog metal crowd.  But it has a complexity that sounds interesting. 

Causa sounds like modern neo prog.  Nothing original about it. 

Wobbler wins for me of those.  With a guitar sound that sounded more 70's authentic, it would grab my vintage ear more.

What else we got?

Well judging by your description of the bands above and the posts you've been making recently, then bear with me if I just keep it to the few I already posted. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that all you're looking for is a way of proving your point - instead of actually giving the music a fair chance.
I'm out.


“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
Raff View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24391
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2015 at 05:24
Originally posted by Skullhead Skullhead wrote:

I don't have an issue with what bands do.  It's their music, and I'm sure they are all doing what they think is best for their music.

But I do wonder if there is interest from the prog community in music made in the tradition of the 1970's.  Clearly the 70's prog is going to be at the top of any best of prog list.  I just don't understand why it is so difficult to re create that vibe in the music?  But my feeling is that if a band actually did that, they would be panned by the prog community for being out of touch, out of time, outdated etc.  But the same people who would write them off still love all the old stuff.



I have to disagree with you on the bolded part. A lot of prog fans are firmly stuck in the past (no offense intended), and will rave about anything that sounds like the classics. Those who, like me, actually want the genre to move forward (as its original name implies) are in the minority.

Anyway, I agree with what David wrote in his post. It seems to me that you (and the others who agree with you) have already decided that no prog produced after the '70s will match anything from that era. Therefore, offering suggestions becomes a bit of a pointless exercise.

Personally, as much as I love the classics (and I grew with them, like many others on this board), I realize that era is gone and will never come back, so I have developed a keen appreciation of the new directions progressive rock has been taking in the past few years. However, I realize we are all different, and that everyone has a right to his/her own tastes - even if this "living in the past" attitude may well mean the end of this vibrant modern scene.

Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46827
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2015 at 05:38
nah...  I do love gloom and doom as much as anyone darling but the lack of support of old prog fan does not have to mean a premature end to the modern scene.   I think we have ample evidence the bands themselves realize this.. and have realized that in order to survive they can not rely ON prog fan.. so they have done.. as that one dude from White Willow said... and put themselves out there in the regular music scene and competed for listeners and live slots.

It is the fragmenting of the scene that was sort of foreseen several years ago. Take for example a band we saw recently at Progday.. one that I know burns your ass for not being added LOL...i.e. rejected here... yet has it hurt the band ONE DAMN bit.. nope.  They just continue happily playing and making new fans and not giving a sh*t if sites like this.. or old prog fan recognize them.


Edited by micky - January 27 2015 at 05:39
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 910111213 20>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.152 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.