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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 25890
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Posted: January 30 2015 at 01:23 |
Pastmaster wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:
Tool certainly aren't prog metal in the sense Dream Theater or Queensr˙che are prog metal. True, it is called prog metal, but it's a different meaning of the term.
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Progressive music is progressive music, sure there are different ways of being progressive, but as long as you're expanding the boundaries of music and creating a unique and innovative sound you are a progressive band. And of course Tool doesn't sound like Dream Theater, then they wouldn't be progressive. However, even if a band isn't progressive doesn't mean they're bad. |
so very true
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WeepingElf
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 18 2013
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 373
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Posted: January 30 2015 at 05:38 |
richardh wrote:
Pastmaster wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:
Tool certainly aren't prog metal in the sense Dream Theater or Queensr˙che are prog metal. True, it is called prog metal, but it's a different meaning of the term.
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Progressive music is progressive music, sure there are different ways of being progressive, but as long as you're expanding the boundaries of music and creating a unique and innovative sound you are a progressive band. And of course Tool doesn't sound like Dream Theater, then they wouldn't be progressive. However, even if a band isn't progressive doesn't mean they're bad. |
so very true |
It is. What I see here is a "blackbird problem". The blackbird is named thus because it is a black bird; that doesn't mean that all black birds are blackbirds. The same way, there is rock that is progressive, but not part of the tradition called progressive rock. I didn't say that Tool aren't progressive in any way; I moreover didn't say they are bad. Maynard James Keenan certainly is a very creative musician; there aren't many who have single-handedly created a new genre.
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... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."
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Pastmaster
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 23 2015
Location: Spiderwood Farm
Status: Offline
Points: 1774
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Posted: January 30 2015 at 12:09 |
WeepingElf wrote:
richardh wrote:
Pastmaster wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:
Tool certainly aren't prog metal in the sense Dream Theater or Queensr˙che are prog metal. True, it is called prog metal, but it's a different meaning of the term.
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Progressive music is progressive music, sure there are different ways of being progressive, but as long as you're expanding the boundaries of music and creating a unique and innovative sound you are a progressive band. And of course Tool doesn't sound like Dream Theater, then they wouldn't be progressive. However, even if a band isn't progressive doesn't mean they're bad. |
so very true |
It is. What I see here is a "blackbird problem". The blackbird is named thus because it is a black bird; that doesn't mean that all black birds are blackbirds. The same way, there is rock that is progressive, but not part of the tradition called progressive rock.
I didn't say that Tool aren't progressive in any way; I moreover didn't say they are bad. Maynard James Keenan certainly is a very creative musician; there aren't many who have single-handedly created a new genre.
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I see where you are coming from, I guess we have different meanings of the word progressive. I honestly don't use 'progressive' as a genre, I use it as an adjective to describe rock or metal bands that create something new and fresh. Due to this there are a lot of bands on this site that I don't call progressive, and a lot of bands that aren't on here that I do call progressive. Bands like Haken, and some neo-prog bands, I don't call progressive because they aren't doing anything new. Yes, they are copying the works of previous progressive artists, but that makes them not progressive.
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WeepingElf
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 18 2013
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 373
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Posted: January 30 2015 at 14:47 |
Pastmaster wrote:
I see where you are coming from, I guess we have different meanings of the word progressive. I honestly don't use 'progressive' as a genre, I use it as an adjective to describe rock or metal bands that create something new and fresh. Due to this there are a lot of bands on this site that I don't call progressive, and a lot of bands that aren't on here that I do call progressive. Bands like Haken, and some neo-prog bands, I don't call progressive because they aren't doing anything new. Yes, they are copying the works of previous progressive artists, but that makes them not progressive. |
Yes, that is precisely the point! Indeed, there are many bands within the tradition of progressive rock that don't do much new, and therefore aren't literally "progressive" - kind of like albino blackbirds which aren't black (I don't know whether albinism actually occurs among blackbirds, but for the point ...) but nevertheless blackbirds. And there are many innovative bands outside the progressive rock tradition. Me, I find the genre definition useful because it functions as a tag which tells something about a band's music and has some predictive power about whether I will like the music, and find the two meanings of "progressive rock" we are wrestling with here unhelpful.
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... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."
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Pastmaster
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 23 2015
Location: Spiderwood Farm
Status: Offline
Points: 1774
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Posted: January 30 2015 at 14:52 |
WeepingElf wrote:
Pastmaster wrote:
I see where you are coming from, I guess we have different meanings of the word progressive. I honestly don't use 'progressive' as a genre, I use it as an adjective to describe rock or metal bands that create something new and fresh. Due to this there are a lot of bands on this site that I don't call progressive, and a lot of bands that aren't on here that I do call progressive. Bands like Haken, and some neo-prog bands, I don't call progressive because they aren't doing anything new. Yes, they are copying the works of previous progressive artists, but that makes them not progressive. |
Yes, that is precisely the point! Indeed, there are many bands within the tradition of progressive rock that don't do much new, and therefore aren't literally "progressive" - kind of like albino blackbirds which aren't black (I don't know whether albinism actually occurs among blackbirds, but for the point ...) but nevertheless blackbirds. And there are many innovative bands outside the progressive rock tradition.
Me, I find the genre definition useful because it functions as a tag which tells something about a band's music and has some predictive power about whether I will like the music, and find the two meanings of "progressive rock" we are wrestling with here unhelpful.
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Yup, genres can work for and against the listener. Good to see we're on the same page now
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 25890
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Posted: January 31 2015 at 05:28 |
''Prog'' is about a sound and style that is recognisable ''Progressive'' is more about an attitude to create and not copy neither definition can presuppose that what is being presented is either good or bad.
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WeepingElf
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 18 2013
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 373
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Posted: January 31 2015 at 12:48 |
richardh wrote:
''Prog'' is about a sound and style that is recognisable''Progressive'' is more about an attitude to create and not copy neither definition can presuppose that what is being presented is either good or bad. |
Right!
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... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
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Posted: January 31 2015 at 12:58 |
Pastmaster wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:
richardh wrote:
Pastmaster wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:
Tool certainly aren't prog metal in the sense Dream Theater or Queensr˙che are prog metal. True, it is called prog metal, but it's a different meaning of the term.
|
Progressive music is progressive music, sure there are different ways of being progressive, but as long as you're expanding the boundaries of music and creating a unique and innovative sound you are a progressive band. And of course Tool doesn't sound like Dream Theater, then they wouldn't be progressive. However, even if a band isn't progressive doesn't mean they're bad. |
so very true |
It is. What I see here is a "blackbird problem". The blackbird is named thus because it is a black bird; that doesn't mean that all black birds are blackbirds. The same way, there is rock that is progressive, but not part of the tradition called progressive rock.
I didn't say that Tool aren't progressive in any way; I moreover didn't say they are bad. Maynard James Keenan certainly is a very creative musician; there aren't many who have single-handedly created a new genre.
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I see where you are coming from, I guess we have different meanings of the word progressive. I honestly don't use 'progressive' as a genre, I use it as an adjective to describe rock or metal bands that create something new and fresh. Due to this there are a lot of bands on this site that I don't call progressive, and a lot of bands that aren't on here that I do call progressive. Bands like Haken, and some neo-prog bands, I don't call progressive because they aren't doing anything new. Yes, they are copying the works of previous progressive artists, but that makes them not progressive. |
That makes them not original.
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WeepingElf
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 18 2013
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 373
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Posted: January 31 2015 at 13:13 |
Svetonio wrote:
Pastmaster wrote:
I see where you are coming from, I guess we have different meanings of the word progressive. I honestly don't use 'progressive' as a genre, I use it as an adjective to describe rock or metal bands that create something new and fresh. Due to this there are a lot of bands on this site that I don't call progressive, and a lot of bands that aren't on here that I do call progressive. Bands like Haken, and some neo-prog bands, I don't call progressive because they aren't doing anything new. Yes, they are copying the works of previous progressive artists, but that makes them not progressive. |
That makes them not original. |
Yep! There are plenty of synonyms (or near-synonyms) for progressive - original, innovative, avant-garde and even the much maligned New School - there is no need to create terminological confusion by using the term progressive rock in ways that have little or nothing to do with what it has been meaning for almost half a century by now: a certain current in rock music that was born in late 1960s England, and has continued until today. This meaning is the established one, no matter what other kinds of rock music could be called "progressive". However, I have to admit that it is perhaps a poor choice of a genre term. A genre term always implies that later bands that continue the style without doing anything really new will be covered by it, too. And that makes the choice of progressive as a genre label somewhat problematic. Yet, it is established by now. And, as I argued previously, the "progressiveness" of progressive rock was, in original at least, threefold - musical, socio-cultural and to a lesser extent, technological. Read Stump, Macan and Martin.
Edited by WeepingElf - January 31 2015 at 13:24
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... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23098
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Posted: January 31 2015 at 13:28 |
Gotta love how 50% of all discussions wind up in the ol prog vs progressive
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
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Posted: January 31 2015 at 14:10 |
WeepingElf wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
Pastmaster wrote:
I see where you are coming from, I guess we have different meanings of the word progressive. I honestly don't use 'progressive' as a genre, I use it as an adjective to describe rock or metal bands that create something new and fresh. Due to this there are a lot of bands on this site that I don't call progressive, and a lot of bands that aren't on here that I do call progressive. Bands like Haken, and some neo-prog bands, I don't call progressive because they aren't doing anything new. Yes, they are copying the works of previous progressive artists, but that makes them not progressive. |
That makes them not original. |
(...) a certain current in rock music that was born in late 1960s England, and has continued until today. (...)
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Nope. It was born in America.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46827
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Posted: January 31 2015 at 14:19 |
Guldbamsen wrote:
Gotta love how 50% of all discussions wind up in the ol prog vs progressive |
it is the blood and semen of the site man... it beats the 100th version of.. Yes v. Genesis polls.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Pastmaster
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 23 2015
Location: Spiderwood Farm
Status: Offline
Points: 1774
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Posted: January 31 2015 at 14:20 |
Svetonio wrote:
Pastmaster wrote:
I see where you are coming from, I guess we have different meanings of the word progressive. I honestly don't use 'progressive' as a genre, I use it as an adjective to describe rock or metal bands that create something new and fresh. Due to this there are a lot of bands on this site that I don't call progressive, and a lot of bands that aren't on here that I do call progressive. Bands like Haken, and some neo-prog bands, I don't call progressive because they aren't doing anything new. Yes, they are copying the works of previous progressive artists, but that makes them not progressive. |
That makes them not original. |
Prog and Progressive mean the same thing, 'prog' is just an abbreviation of Progressive.
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
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Posted: January 31 2015 at 14:25 |
Pastmaster wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
Pastmaster wrote:
I see where you are coming from, I guess we have different meanings of the word progressive. I honestly don't use 'progressive' as a genre, I use it as an adjective to describe rock or metal bands that create something new and fresh. Due to this there are a lot of bands on this site that I don't call progressive, and a lot of bands that aren't on here that I do call progressive. Bands like Haken, and some neo-prog bands, I don't call progressive because they aren't doing anything new. Yes, they are copying the works of previous progressive artists, but that makes them not progressive. |
That makes them not original. |
Prog and Progressive mean the same thing, 'prog' is just an abbreviation of Progressive. |
Nope. Prog and Progressive rock mean the same thing.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46827
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Posted: January 31 2015 at 14:32 |
Pastmaster wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
Pastmaster wrote:
I see where you are coming from, I guess we have different meanings of the word progressive. I honestly don't use 'progressive' as a genre, I use it as an adjective to describe rock or metal bands that create something new and fresh. Due to this there are a lot of bands on this site that I don't call progressive, and a lot of bands that aren't on here that I do call progressive. Bands like Haken, and some neo-prog bands, I don't call progressive because they aren't doing anything new. Yes, they are copying the works of previous progressive artists, but that makes them not progressive. |
That makes them not original. |
Prog and Progressive mean the same thing, 'prog' is just an abbreviation of Progressive. |
a great many, including myself, disagree strongly. No one is going to stop you from thinking what you do. A good many see it this way. Prog is a noun.. it is a musical genre.. progressive rock is an adjective man. It is the scene today.. is was the scene way back in the day before the genreifiction (© Micky 2007) of the music and also when the labels and reviewers went slap happy with genres and tags and started breaking up music (and listeners) into nice easy to define (and thus market TO) niches. Look at it one big circle man progressive rock.... became Prog Rock.. and the circle is closing again today as band make music that rebels against the cliched sounds and stylistic norms of prog rock.. yet is undeniably progressive rock.. just like those cats were doing in 1970.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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