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cstack3 View Drop Down
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Points: 6746 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2015 at 21:28
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Considered Strawbs' high water mark in progressive rock, what's tour take on Hero and Heroine?


Fantastic album!  I had never heard of the band, but saw them one evening on the American TV show "Midnight Special..." As I recall, they opened with "Round and Round".  I was blown away! 

I was just starting to learn guitar and bass, so my first real bass I ever learned to play was Chas Cronk's line to "Hero and Heroine."  

Some years ago I emailed a bit with John Hawken, he seemed to be a real British gent!  Highly recommended (also their followup "Ghosts")
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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2015 at 21:58
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Even if their sound is dated, you have to give Hawkin credit for his subtle and sublime use of the Mellotron on this album which included choral settings. It's a Mellotron clinic that he gets little appreciation for.

Not in the least bit dated. This is a fine fine album showing all the pedigree Strawbs had to offer around the early/mid 70's. Autumn, Out In The Cold, Midnight sun.....Remembering( Hawkin's at his best), It was the precursor to their best IMHO, Ghosts. In terms of the membership of Strawbs, the finest line up, although personally I felt all their albums were vintage up to and including Deadlines even with latter day line up changes.

I have the most wonderful vinyl pressing of thisApprove, sorry showing off now.

edit- Remembering off Ghosts, apologies, getting old....remembering or lack ofSmile




Edited by Chris S - January 20 2015 at 22:03
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2015 at 22:53
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

Not in the least bit dated.
Really? ... What's with the backwards vocals at the end of the album? What's with that rant Dave breaks out into two thirds into "Round And Round"? ... Who would want any of that, especially live? Come up with something fresh, not a remnant of the 60's.
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Points: 6673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 00:51
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Dated? Yup, so are The Beatles, Bach and ...
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not my point. My point is: the sound of the album hasn't aged well.
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

As for unoriginal , perhaps by 2015 standards but at the time (1974) this type of mellotron -fronted prog was a very very new thing!
Not in '74 it wasn't.

If I heard the 'tron for the first time in '67, I'm pretty sure by '74 I'd be much more interested in something else, especially if I heard that specific progression from the medley.

You are right! Confused
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Points: 10026 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 02:33
Bought the vinyl cheap a decade ago but haven't listened to in years. It it really considered their best? I prefer all their pervious releases. The album opener Autumn would be sublime if it wasn't for its childlike singalong ending. That's folk-cheese for you and so is the cringeworthy chorus on Shine on Silver Sun. There's at least a couple of half assed pubrock-rockin' tunes as well. There's little I loath more. A hard working band among many trying to complete a decent album while knowing they have a slight lack of quality material is what it sounded like to me. A couple of standouts are about as good as the best stuff on Grave New World but very little comes near their peak album From the Witchwood. I saw them live as an acoustic trio a couple of years ago which was fantastic. Better than any of their studio albums. 
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 05:21
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Dated? Yup, so are The Beatles, Bach and ...
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not my point. My point is: the sound of the album hasn't aged well.
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

As for unoriginal , perhaps by 2015 standards but at the time (1974) this type of mellotron -fronted prog was a very very new thing!
Not in '74 it wasn't.

If I heard the 'tron for the first time in '67, I'm pretty sure by '74 I'd be much more interested in something else, especially if I heard that specific progression from the medley.

You are right! Confused
... Just making a point, that is all.
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

The album opener Autumn would be sublime if it wasn't for its childlike singalong ending. That's folk-cheese for you and so is the cringeworthy chorus on Shine on Silver Sun.
So, I'm not the only one.
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Points: 20497 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 09:52
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

Not in the least bit dated.
Really? ... What's with the backwards vocals at the end of the album? What's with that rant Dave breaks out into two thirds into "Round And Round"? ... Who would want any of that, especially live? Come up with something fresh, not a remnant of the 60's.
All music of a certain time period will be dated either through topical social commentary, instruments used, recording techniques and quarks like Jon Anderson's spiritual lyrics. This is how it is for all early prog groups from KC through to Genesis. I could pick apart many more albums than Hero and Heroine in this regard, but what would that have to do with the quality of the music? And more importantly, what would be my motive to do so?  Just to criticize the music?
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Points: 245 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 10:00
Dated music doesn't bother me, but the 80's drum sound is an exception. 
Hero & Heroine is easily the best Strawbs album, easily one of the best prog folk albums, but it's not in my top 20 of 1974 (!). 
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Points: 872 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 10:02
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

Not in the least bit dated.
Really? ... What's with the backwards vocals at the end of the album? What's with that rant Dave breaks out into two thirds into "Round And Round"? ... Who would want any of that, especially live? Come up with something fresh, not a remnant of the 60's.
 
don't bother me in the least either
"I know one thing: that I know nothing"

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Points: 20497 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 10:19
^That works too. LOL
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 10:56
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

Not in the least bit dated.
Really? ... What's with the backwards vocals at the end of the album? What's with that rant Dave breaks out into two thirds into "Round And Round"? ... Who would want any of that, especially live? Come up with something fresh, not a remnant of the 60's.
All music of a certain time period will be dated either through topical social commentary, instruments used, recording techniques and quarks like Jon Anderson's spiritual lyrics.
What time period? And under "all music" do you also include Chopin and Bach?

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

This is how it is for all early prog groups from KC through to Genesis. I could pick apart many more albums than Hero and Heroine in this regard, but what would that have to do with the quality of the music?
Some of the ideas used on the album have been used before (e.g., playing stuff backwards). I've got nothing against that. But how these ideas were used (again, back to backwards verbal singing, etc.) - why would you do that? It's just there. What does it add? There are some unnecessary add-ons, and that has everything to do with quality. As luck would have it, that's not my only problem with the album.
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

And more importantly, what would be my motive to do so? Just to criticize the music?
Criticism for the sake of itself ... that makes no sense at all to me. At all.




Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 21 2015 at 10:59
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Points: 20497 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 11:07
^Because criticizing the 'age factor' of a musical genre like prog rock achieves the same goal. That's the point.
 
If you don't understand that, then I can't help you.
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Points: 6673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 11:21
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Dated? Yup, so are The Beatles, Bach and ...
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not my point. My point is: the sound of the album hasn't aged well.
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

As for unoriginal , perhaps by 2015 standards but at the time (1974) this type of mellotron -fronted prog was a very very new thing!
Not in '74 it wasn't.

If I heard the 'tron for the first time in '67, I'm pretty sure by '74 I'd be much more interested in something else, especially if I heard that specific progression from the medley.

You are right! Confused
... Just making a point, that is all.
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

The album opener Autumn would be sublime if it wasn't for its childlike singalong ending. That's folk-cheese for you and so is the cringeworthy chorus on Shine on Silver Sun.
So, I'm not the only one.

So the 1967 to 1974 mellotron 'fad' makes one want to move onto something else? What about the '67 drums, or '67 bass or '67 guitars?. Just making your point a tad pointless! You could not have heard the 'tron in 1967 , you were not born yet, according to your profile  Wink Of course, you were just making a point.
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 11:39
^ Huh? ... You are not making any sense. What does any of it have to do with what I said? I said: "... I'd be much more interested in something else." That does not necessarily imply I'd give up on the 'tron. What I look for is evolution. And why are we bringing in other instruments?

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Because criticizing the 'age factor' of a musical genre like prog rock achieves the same goal. That's the point.
 
If you don't understand that, then I can't help you.
Who is criticizing the "age factor"? And what goal does it achieve?


Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 21 2015 at 11:45
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Points: 6673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 11:44
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ Huh? ... You are not making any sense. What does any of it have to do with what I said? I said: "... I'd be much more interested in something else." That does not necessarily imply I'd give up on the 'tron. And why are we bringing in other instruments and label them by year?

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Because criticizing the 'age factor' of a musical genre like prog rock achieves the same goal. That's the point.
 
If you don't understand that, then I can't help you.
Who is criticizing the "age factor"? And what goal does it achieve?
If I need a teacher or a psychiatrist, I will give you a call. I have more sense than you think, as I write reviews instead of ambushing words I then conveniently forget.  If you do not remember what you wrote, scrolling back may be a good idea. Wink 
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 11:47
^ Eh ... a knee-jerk and arrogant comment. Instead you could point out what it is that I "conveniently forgot" for no apparent reason, because yes, I do read and re-read, edit and re-edit my comments (in case if you haven't noticed).

Forget about time and what instrument is being used. Think about what methodology the user applies when working with an instrument when it comes to writing for and producing an album.

An important note: I see what SteveG meant by the "age factor". When I use the word "dated", I automatically think "used over and over for a long time until its popularity wears thin" (couldn't think of a word other than "dated"). I don't think about when a particular thing came about or became popular, which is probably what both of you meant.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 21 2015 at 12:31
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Points: 6673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 11:59
Arrogance ? MOI? I think not ! Please, you are not dealing with a child, be a little wiser! You state that 7 years is way too long to anoint the mellotron as a major musical mover (you solidify the argument by stating YOU would look for something else and the need to move on). So is that not applicable to other instruments? Are you bigoted in any way? Also we did not raise that argument, I did! Thirdly, Chopin and Bach are dated or not dated, in your humble and worldly mind?

Knee-jerk , I am a buddhist ! LOL
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:17
[QUOTE=tszirmay]Arrogance? MOI? I think not ! ... be a little wiser![/QUOTE] ... ... Eh?

(The quoting system is letting me down; I'll break up my responses in posts.)


Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 21 2015 at 12:19
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:18
[QUOTE=tszirmay]You state that 7 years is way too long to anoint the mellotron as a major musical mover (you solidify the argument by stating YOU would look for something else and the need to move on).[/QUOTE]

Again, that's not what I said. What I said was: "... I'd be much more interested in something else." "That does not necessarily imply I'd give up on the 'tron. What I look for is evolution." 

The way the 'tron was used (I'm going for a word more general than "played") back in the day is how you hear it on the records from that '67-'74 period. Time to move on from that methodology to a different way of using the instrument. So, no, I am not bigoted; you just misunderstood what I said.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 21 2015 at 12:22
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:19
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Also we did not raise that argument, I did!
Yeah, ... and ... ? Any question about it?

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Thirdly, Chopin and Bach are dated or not dated, in your humble and worldly mind?
Steve said: "All music of a certain time period will be dated either through topical social commentary, instruments used, recording techniques and quarks like Jon Anderson's spiritual lyrics." Which I countered with "And under 'all music' do you also include Chopin and Bach?", thus expressing disagreement with Steve. So, no, I don't think it's dated. I think it's fresh as ever.

(Also, I've edited this post with bold. Just a heads up.)


Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 21 2015 at 12:32
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