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Topic ClosedThe Mellotron and Moog Modular

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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Mellotron and Moog Modular
    Posted: February 01 2015 at 10:04
Just in case we'd all forgotten, that, above, in all its' whiteness, is a Mellotron.

Behold also, gentle reader, a Moog Modular.



Crivens ! - I hear you say, great horneytoads and crikey. The instruments which defined late 1960's prog. How desirable these venerable musical rarities must be.

Throw 'em on the fireback, says I.


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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 10:07
Now, behold - (1) a software modelled Mellotron - 



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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 10:09
And ditto, a Moog Modular, modelled in software.





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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 10:16
So. I come in. I switch on the PC, I start up Cubase. I add a track, and I can choose from 1001 instruments, hundreds of presets, I don't have to plug anything in, I don't have to warm anything up, I don't have to find $50,000 for a vintage instrument which will go wrong, requiring ruinously expensive repairs.... and they sound the same. 

End of argument for me. 

Robert Fripp one said that "Tuning a Mellotron..... doesn't." The limitations of both systems are enormous. The Mellotron is tape driven. Want a different sound ? Change - physically - god knows how many loops of tape. The tapes only run for about 8 seconds, so you have no sustain. 

It's even worse with a real Moog. Unless you learn to plug one thing into another properly - no noise whatsoever. When you finally have got the beast to emit sound, it plays one note at a time. Then, after 15 minutes, due to the poor electronics its' constructed from, it begins to drift out of tune and you have to put your Piano Tuner hat on and tune up to six oscillators at once. 

Also. Try taking these on tour. Tangerine Dream did. The power supplies in the Moog detached and fell through the units, causing untold damage to an incredibly rare piece of kit two days before a concert. 

Nightmare. No, the software sounds good enough and is 1000 times easier to use, maintain and mess about with. If Keith Emerson were buying a Moog today, he'd go for the VST version. A lot of hero worship of old instruments exist - I played a lot of old instruments first time around and they're klunky, limited and ultimately frustrating. 

Thank you but no thank you. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 11:03
I played a mellotron in the 70's while traveling with an original band. Often tuned by a roadie. It had a few pre-recorded sound effects..unlike the one The Beatles used in the late 60's which was suppose to have many tape recordings of audiences clapping, sirens, and voices. What model would that be? I must research it!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 11:07
The 400 ??? ;-)

You have my severe condolences. ;-)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 11:08
I can pass on the physical Moog - in fact, if I were to do even a standard prog album, I wouldn't use any Moog whatsoever.

But the Mellotron, I can use. Especially if, through wrestling with it, I can get it to sound gloomy. And then I'd spring for a physical Mellotron.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 11:18
That's all alright Dave, surely those instruments were a pain, but it also means that those guys who mastered them needed something current musicians do not need having. They had to tame those beasts, they had to fiddle with knobs and switches and patch cables and pedals while playing live in front of their audiences, dealing with the fact that some of them were monophonic, some of them did not have a velocity-sensitive keyboard or aftertouch, or they could not store presets... While current musicians just need to sequentially push a 'next patch' button and they can concentrate on their fingers without worrying about the instrument and sound they are playing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 12:19
To quote the great Robert Fripp: "A mellotron is never in tune."
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 12:56
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Now, behold - (1) a software modelled Mellotron -

Thanks for the link to "Brotherhood of the Machine," they have a synth sound that reminds me of High T Moonweed from "Gong"!  Very similar to "Gong-You"! 

Even better than modeled Mellotron is to buy actual samples of Mellotron tapes, taken from a very clean set of studio tapes.  I have a set of these, they are fun to play with!!  

All the glory of the old Mellotron sound & none of the mechanical hassle.  Fripp triggers old Mellotron samples with his synth guitar, fun to watch in concert! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 14:03
.........and an EMS Synthi........the Kings of P.I.T.A.
.........but I'd still like the 'real deal' when it comes to 'tron.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 22:56
I learned a little about synths with an ARP2600, not quite the same beast as that Moog Modulator but a bear to work with still.  My two favorite patches: One a buddy and I created that went something like "Blik-Whonk-WHEEEEeeeeeeeeee-Boing-Blatch.  Our teacher had to study that one and to be honest I have no idea how we actually did it.  The other was created by our teacher and we called it "Oatmeal" because it sounded like a big cauldron of the stuff burbling and bubbling.  We had to be careful about hitting too high a note or it would boil over!  Big smile
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 23:02
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:


...

All the glory of the old Mellotron sound & none of the mechanical hassle.  Fripp triggers old Mellotron samples with his synth guitar, fun to watch in concert! 

Does he tap into the software or does he make his guitar sound like a Mellotron just by itself? If the latter, that's amazing.

If I had to get physical copies of interments - assuming I ever get enough money to by the things - I'll go with the digital Mellotron. I'll pass on The Modular Moog and get me a Minimoog.


Edited by KingCrInuYasha - February 01 2015 at 23:02
He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2015 at 00:15
Several years ago, the local trading post had an M400 listed for sale - $800 not working. Apparently, the seller got dozens of phone calls with offers into the 1000's. He pulled the plug on it (the sale, haha) and eventually some big instrument repairs/sales centre whipped it up, probably for more than the 800 he asked.
And some of the modern patches sound so convincing, even having the 'raspy' qualities of the genuine machines.
Remember Astra's debut album The Weirding ?? Bluffed me until Andy T (Planet Mellotron) shed light on its source. Finnish band Kosmos, same deal. Getting hard to spot the difference.
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cstack3 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2015 at 02:45
Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha KingCrInuYasha wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:


...

All the glory of the old Mellotron sound & none of the mechanical hassle.  Fripp triggers old Mellotron samples with his synth guitar, fun to watch in concert! 

Does he tap into the software or does he make his guitar sound like a Mellotron just by itself? If the latter, that's amazing.

If I had to get physical copies of interments - assuming I ever get enough money to by the things - I'll go with the digital Mellotron. I'll pass on The Modular Moog and get me a Minimoog.

Fripp triggers synthesizer with his Japanese-made guitars, which incorporate both conventional magnetic pickups and synth pickups.  

I saw him trigger Mellotron patches on both the Thrak and last (2014) tours, it is amazing to watch him do this!  
Also, in the 2014 tour, he actually had a small conventional keyboard within his onstage working area, and I think he played some Mellotron patches on that as well!  There was so much going on that it was hard to figure out who was doing what!  (Gavin Harrison also played Mellotron synth when not drumming, it was amazing)!  

I dearly love the Mellotron, but I sure don't want to have to pay for the upkeep!!  



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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2015 at 07:09
I started off on a Korg MS-10 which I later sold for £175. I was sitting in the music shop with the cash burning a hole in my pocket, picked up a Rickenbacker 4001 which no one seemed to want, played a few bass lines, thought.... "nah" for some reason, and put it back in the rack. It was..... £175 at the time. 

Expensive mistake. ;-)

Alas, old technology - Mellotrons et al - been there, done that. I'm sure it's a wonder and a delight to the youthpersons of today. Until they realise the limitations and the fun wears off, which I don't imagine will take too long. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2015 at 07:34
^ My father had a Roland SH-101 and he sold it for a ridiculous price back then, something he regrets nowadays Disapprove

I brought from the attic a few months ago his Yamaha DSR-2000 which is nothing fantastic but I love its bright analog sound and how easy it is to work with it. I will certainly use it in my music Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2015 at 07:41
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:


Thanks for the link to "Brotherhood of the Machine," they have a synth sound that reminds me of High T Moonweed from "Gong"!  Very similar to "Gong-You"! 


Oh no, he's right. And I hate Gong. SmileSmileSmile

That's me, by the way, cstack. Glad you liked it. :-)


Edited by Davesax1965 - February 02 2015 at 07:42

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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2015 at 12:02
As I just posted in another thread, I just purchased on eBay a 2nd hand e-Mu Vintage Keys synth, this is a digital synth made around 2002 which presets (512 of them) are samples of vintage instruments like several Mellotron patches, Modular Moogs, Minimoogs, several ARP synths, Clavinet etc.

Besides it's a real synth, so you can modify the presets (it has another bank of 512 presets to store your own user presets so in total you can have 1024 presets, still expandable with SIMM cards which I don't think I will need), or, if you know enough about synthesis (which I don't), you can create your own sounds from scratch as in a genuine vintage synth (but digital).

I just got it 4 days ago and I will need some time to learn about it. For me this is a good compromise between the real thing (which I agree were surely a pain) and the software instruments you favour, OK the sounds are pre-programmed but it's still a physical keyboard which I need to play with my fingers, and any expression or modulation I need to play with my hands using its keyboard pressure sensitivity, aftertouch, its control wheels and knobs...  not just programming in a computer DAW a VST instrument track. 
It's an instrument and I need to play it, it's not a computer sounding according to what I have programmed into it (unless you use your software instruments with a physical keyboard controller, which perhaps you do).


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cstack3 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2015 at 23:21
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:


Thanks for the link to "Brotherhood of the Machine," they have a synth sound that reminds me of High T Moonweed from "Gong"!  Very similar to "Gong-You"! 


Oh no, he's right. And I hate Gong. SmileSmileSmile

That's me, by the way, cstack. Glad you liked it. :-)

My pleasure!  Clap

Keep up the excellent work, I miss the old days of twisting knobs on analog synths, messing with filters & oscillators, holding keyboard keys down with paperweights to get the sustain I want etc.!!   A lot of truly great prog music was probably quite accidental!  
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