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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2015 at 00:15
Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

I'm new around her but I thought the forum frowned on political posts.  Ermm

....You missed on the 500 pages of debate between myself and libertarians, not to mention the mountain of political threads, or comments. 




Oh and I'm neutral on Obama. He has, more or less, been George W Bush round 2. 
Not saying he's done a poor job, and he has of course been shackled by the opposing party, but still...he was far too timid early on when there was great political window, concerned with being bipartsian which I am all for BUT it was clear from day 1 the GOP was never going to bend an inch, so he really was too moderate when it mattered most. 
The major bill of his Presidency, the healthcare bill, while it provides an increased benefit it does little to change the system itself, and again he sat back and let Congress handle it and gave no push at all. 

Most importantly, he has continued the policy going on since the Clinton days: Give finance/big banks the keys to the castle, the lands of the common folk and a guarantee to do whatever they want without consequence.
To the inequality foes: The upwards transfer of wealth under Obama has been perhaps the most impressive ever. saw a fascinating paper showing how much wealth went to the 90% vs 10% for each recovery since the end of WWII and while it's been getting worse over time....this latest recovery has actually seen the wealth reduce for 90% of the pop, while the 1% made back their pre recession wealth and then some. 
There was of course his 180s on gitmo, civil liberties/privacy and open government. 

I don't actually blame all this on him, and some are simply the continuation of forces, but he has been complacent in it all, often sitting back to let whatever happens happens, not to mention continuing George W econ policies basically.  Can't say he's done much poorly, but not much well, and in fact not much unique at all. Just been a continuation of our former President. Again, don't really hold this against him but I see no reason he should thus get praise. 


Sure, he's SAID lots of great things but well....too little too late. It's pretty politically convenient that he brings up lifting the Cuba embargo, free comm college education and more progressive agenda now, that he has no hope at all to pass anything...  

I suppose that was all harsh, we're more or less an oligarchy by now and I saw Citizens United mentioned earlier, which may indeed be the final blow. Not sure what anyone can really doCry



Edited by JJLehto - February 10 2015 at 00:31
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TeleStrat View Drop Down
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Points: 9319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2015 at 00:20
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

I'm new around her but I thought the forum frowned on political posts.  Ermm

....You missed on the 500 pages of debate between myself and libertarians, not to mention the mountain of political threads, or comments. 





I'm pretty sure missing all that was in my favor. 
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Points: 64351 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2015 at 00:31
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I'm neutral on Obama. He has, more or less, been George W Bush round 2. 

The difference being George W. was a feeble-minded alcoholic.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2015 at 00:33
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I'm neutral on Obama. He has, more or less, been George W Bush round 2. 

The difference being George W. was a feeble-minded alcoholic.


Cute but means little. If you wanna give Obama credit for being well spoken and not a shame to the nation, well I agree fully but that doesn't mean muchLOL 
I have truly, finally, moved on from the dark days of Wubya. Time to stop thinking about the past and accept the "liberal" party needs some truly major change and soon. 
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Points: 64351 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2015 at 00:37
I wouldn't say the individual who is President means little, it can be highly significant. 
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2015 at 01:09
To each their own, I just think it's a bit...surface level. Kind of the easy way out to appeal to the base. 
Especially when there was that rare political window early on: Total control of congress, a sympathetic media, and people more accepting of big changes...and it was squandered either to support big money or try and broker peace with a party that was never going to budge. 

I will be fair: ACA, while mainly to the benefit of the industry, messy, and a blown chance for true change, it does at least provide a benefit to the needy. I also applaud his scaling back of massive US support for Israel, and at least fighting to maintain the status quo...while his opponents quite literally wanted to dismantle the last vestiges of middle class and poor support we have, (and would turn our country into a true aristocracy I think). 
The stimulus package was small and slow, but it did at least slow the bleeding... it was better than nothing and far better than austerity, which is another live experiment I think being proven wrong. 

That said, I still think liberals, and especially progressives, in the US should no longer support the Dems. 
All of Obama's big economic people have been from the Bob Rubin camp: deregulation and massive support of finance/big banks. I just think both sides have become the same now. 
We should support guys like Bernie Sanders, no matter what, to force some truly progressive change, or at least get some progressive ideas absorbed into the Democratic party. 


Edited by JJLehto - February 10 2015 at 01:10
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Points: 64351 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2015 at 01:13
The image “http://trialx.com/curetalk/wp-content/blogs.dir/7/files/2011/03/gcelebrities/Pat_Paulsen-2.jpg” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.





Edited by Atavachron - February 10 2015 at 02:19
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2015 at 03:55
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

the legalization of marijuana



lol Obama had nothing to do with this
LOL oh sorry, that was a Balkan way of thinking: if it happened during his presidency, he is "guilty".
Let me just add that I read somewhere that this year the U.S. economy this is gonna increased by 2%, unlike to the Chinese economy which this year see fall below 7% what can be pretty dangerous for the Asian dragon of which annual economic growth must be 7% if they want that their economy continues to be healthy, as well as Russian economic will failling by 2% compared to 2014. I generally thought that one can not find much of Obama's mistakes.
Ideology is another thing, lol.


Edited by Svetonio - February 10 2015 at 03:56
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Points: 5898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2015 at 15:31
Toyama Koichi 2016.
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Points: 20497 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2015 at 15:36
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I'm neutral on Obama. He has, more or less, been George W Bush round 2. 

The difference being George W. was a feeble-minded alcoholic.

Don't try to blame alcohol for his stupidity! LOL
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Points: 12683 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2015 at 19:42
Demoblicans, Republicrats, the Supreme Court allowing corporations to act like voting citizens -- there are more whores per capita in the Capitol than on 8 Mile Road in Detroit.
 
I am sick of the whole gridlocked, scam-ridden U.S. political system.
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Points: 463 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2015 at 21:00
I feel the same way now, Elf. Both sides are of the same coin that goes to the same place no matter what.
At least I can save myself the stress from politics. LOL
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Points: 64351 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2015 at 21:21
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I'm neutral on Obama. He has, more or less, been George W Bush round 2. 
The difference being George W. was a feeble-minded alcoholic.
Don't try to blame alcohol for his stupidity! LOL

Oh believe me I'm not; one has little to do with the other and in Jr. we got both equally.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 2673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2015 at 21:59
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

the legalization of marijuana



lol Obama had nothing to do with this
I do. Clap
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2015 at 23:54
Didn't end the war in Iraq (The Iraq withdrawal was set under Bush. Obama added forces.) or Afghanistan
Waging an illegal and murderous drone war across the middle east in order to cross names off of his kill list (will spare everyone pictures, for now)
Further destabilizing the middle east by aiding rebels in Libya and Yemen
His foreign policy has been like something out of a Dick Cheney wet dream up to this point
Simply another criminal in chief spraying blood all over the globe while further limiting freedoms at home.  Nothing special or applause worthy about that.


Edited by manofmystery - February 10 2015 at 23:56


Time always wins.
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Points: 23996 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2015 at 03:32
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

After the withdrawal of the U.S. troops from Iraq, historic agreement with India, the legalization of marijuana, start the negotiations with Iran, his administration's phase out but significant decrease in Israel support after last year criminal bombing of Gaza and the killing of Palestinian children, announced the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Afghanistan, the abolition of customs duties for many of high-tech goods from People Republic of China, the introduction of health and social care for the poorest Americans, lifting of the embargo with Cuba and the release of Miami five, excellent policy regarding the Putin's aggression on Ukraine and much more, Obama once again proved to the world outside USA that he is to be the best American president since the time brutally cut off but great Kennedy era, properly comparing the Crusades with the Islamic terrorism: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/02/06/what-obama-should-have-said-about-religious-violence/




Poppycock. The U.S. troops have done their work in some dirty political game. The fall of Saddam Hussein has created a power vacuum in Iraq, finally leaving it open for the barbarians to enter. Maybe they could have been held at bay if the US troops stayed there.

Pallycock. Israel, like every other nation, has the right to defend itself against attacks, including rockets fired from the Gaza area. And I think that they do their best to minimize the number of innocent victims who are taken hostage as a human shield.

As far as my understanding reaches (not very far, I'm afraid), Putin just has to take some counteractions against the US and the EU who are grabbling in his backyard trying to draw Ukraine into their influence sphere.

I am not impressed by his musings on religious violence. This is clearly written, either by him or by his tamers, from the perception of a muslim with the crusades-cliché being taken from the dusty shelf once again. The only good thing I can say about it is that the cruel methods of the IS are too barbaric for his standards.


I couldn't agree less.

Thumbs DownThumbs DownThumbs DownThumbs DownThumbs Down


Edited by someone_else - February 11 2015 at 03:35
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Points: 10837 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2015 at 05:38
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

Poppycock. The U.S. troops have done their work in some dirty political game. The fall of Saddam Hussein has created a power vacuum in Iraq, finally leaving it open for the barbarians to enter. Maybe they could have been held at bay if the US troops stayed there.


No, the "barbarians" would have been at bay if the other countries next to Iraq (Saudi Arabia, Iran and maybe Turkey) weren't also trying to be the new regional power and weren't funding or supporting the various militias, terrorist movements or criminal organisations trying to take the power in Iraq.
If the American troops were to stay, they would just endure more deaths and would have to support a faction artificialy put in charge by the USA, for there was no political opposition and no way to replace Saddam Hussein.
And I'm still waiting for a free Kurdistan - and even the USA wouldn't help this nation to get its own state.

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:


Pallycock. Israel, like every other nation, has the right to defend itself against attacks, including rockets fired from the Gaza area. And I think that they do their best to minimize the number of innocent victims who are taken hostage as a human shield.


While I'm well aware that some Palestinian movements are nothing but terrorist, war-hungry, extremist factions (some using children as shields, it's documented), maybe Israel wouldn't have to defend itself if it left EVERY occupied territories and abandon the Israeli colons setting over the Palestinian borders.

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:


As far as my understanding reaches (not very far, I'm afraid), Putin just has to take some counteractions against the US and the EU who are grabbling in his backyard trying to draw Ukraine into their influence sphere.


And, of cours, Good Guy Putin is just a poor innocent pacific chief of state who absolutely doesn't try to take back the former territories of the Russian Empire and the URSS... Attacks against the Estonian internet networks, blackmail against Europe with the menace of the rise of the gas price, military occupation in Chechnya, support to Bachar Al-Assad...
Don't be fooled, Putin is another imperialist trying to keep the control of Ukraine and every country near Russia.

That said, I don't understand the need for Europe to get Ukraine in its network: the new Ukrainian is composed of fascist right-wing activists, and it will be another member for the OTAN.
Instead of adding new members from Eastern Europe which only impoverish the budget of the Union and deepen the American implantation (each new country also get into the OTAN), the European Union should have stayed in its 1995 limits and develope its own military force.
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Points: 463 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2015 at 12:25
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Didn't end the war in Iraq (The Iraq withdrawal was set under Bush. Obama added forces.) or Afghanistan
Waging an illegal and murderous drone war across the middle east in order to cross names off of his kill list (will spare everyone pictures, for now)
Further destabilizing the middle east by aiding rebels in Libya and Yemen
His foreign policy has been like something out of a Dick Cheney wet dream up to this point
Simply another criminal in chief spraying blood all over the globe while further limiting freedoms at home.  Nothing special or applause worthy about that.


Might regret opening this can of worms, but I'm incapable of self-restraint at times, and am curious to find out about what freedoms you have lost, or feel have been limited.
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2015 at 13:13
Quick btw, as we speak Obama is of course sending a letter to Congress requesting the Authorization for use of force against terrorists, to fight ISIS. 
So, we have potentially have Iraq round #3 coming up very soon


Sure, there are actually terrorists this time, and not just a thinly veiled excuse to "finish the job" neocons wanted done in 91, but I think Afghanistan has proven how difficult it is to wage actual war against terrorists.


BTW, while it pains me to say this: MoM was right, it was under Bush the withdrawl of Iraq was signed, while Obama did at first increase troops in Afghanistan. 
He has maintained more or less everything Wubya has done. Sorry, as a liberal (or esp progressive) I just don't see how anyone can really praise his Presidency. At best....neutral. 

Especially since both parties are becoming one, I think eating up these buzz words, and still hating on Wubya is actually part of the problem. If we keep rooting for a team, and not policies, things will keep getting worse. 

Are you interested in real impacts or just laughing at the other party? Believe me, I never thought I'd get to say this: Wubya is gone...it's time to move on.  
Though sometimes it's been hard to tell where Wubya ended and Obama began!



Edited by JJLehto - February 11 2015 at 13:34
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2015 at 20:08
Originally posted by *frinspar* *frinspar* wrote:

Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Didn't end the war in Iraq (The Iraq withdrawal was set under Bush. Obama added forces.) or Afghanistan
Waging an illegal and murderous drone war across the middle east in order to cross names off of his kill list (will spare everyone pictures, for now)
Further destabilizing the middle east by aiding rebels in Libya and Yemen
His foreign policy has been like something out of a Dick Cheney wet dream up to this point
Simply another criminal in chief spraying blood all over the globe while further limiting freedoms at home.  Nothing special or applause worthy about that.


Might regret opening this can of worms, but I'm incapable of self-restraint at times, and am curious to find out about what freedoms you have lost, or feel have been limited.


If he still identifies as libertarian, I'd imagine the list is pretty extensive, but probably could apply to modern American government rather than Obama in particular.
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