Reexamining Commercial Prog of The 1980's. - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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SteveG

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Topic: Reexamining Commercial Prog of The 1980's.
Posted: February 09 2015 at 15:51

As someone who has made a living in the music business, I've always kept a low profile when it came to discussions of so called 'sellouts' of 1980's Prog Rock. I've already written the term music business once, but if there are members with strictly romantic views regarding Prog Music of the eighties, then I will simply emphasize that it was indeed a business and quite a cutthroat one at that.

And it was controlled by a group of corporations and companies that made up with what we today call the Record Industry. And their part in many decisions regarding the musical direction of the once chart dominant seventies Prog groups such as Yes and Genesis cannot be understated.

Perhaps the most influential record company in regards to seventies prog signings, support and success was due to the efforts of Atco/Atlantic records. This company was one of the first to push for Prog rock after witnessing the success of King Crimson's ItCotCK , and were major forces behind the success of both Yes and Genesis.

Atco/Atlantic was also instrumental in pushing the band Cinema to use the defunct Yes moniker to help record sells as well as fawning over the Pop-like material that was to become the album 90125. Atlantic also orchestrated the debacle that was to become the album reunion album titled, based on commercial concerns. Atlantic also approved and supported the commercial direction that Genesis was to take and the company's support of Phil Collins' never ending Pop releases cannot be understated either.

Another casualty due to record company pressure was Renaissance while signed to Miles Copland's IRS records. After producing a different sounding but still progressive album that failed to chart titled Camera Camera, the group was pressured to follow it with the Pop drivel album Time Line.

Even the vaunted Rush was not without record company pressure after the successful release of Moving Pictures. Rush may not have 'gone commercial', but the influences that they were incorporating into their music like Police inspired Reggae and Ultravox inspired synths certainly were. And their new radio friendly 3 minute songs didn't hurt either.

Having reviewed some of the facts regarding what many Prog fans regard as a poor era for thier favorite music, is it possible to give many of these 1980's Prog groups in question a pass? Or do we continue to hold these groups to standards that they were no longer allowed to maintain?

And before someone cries Neo-prog, remember that only Marillion was signed to a major recording contract among the other new mid eighties British Neo-prog groups, and ONLY they had albums that charted in the eighties starting with the album A Script for a Jester's Tears.

Edited by SteveG - February 10 2015 at 08:25

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Posted: February 09 2015 at 16:03

Not to derail your thread, but I want to ask about "Camera Camera" (still a decent Renaissance lp) North American pressing.

I have had 3 copies and all , on side two go into at least 10 minutes of nigh MONO!

Anyone else experience this? It is most irksome.

Could a pressing flaw do this? (I don't think so.)

If not, then HOW IN ALL HELL could they of engineered this so sloppily?

LearsFool

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Posted: February 09 2015 at 16:58

An interesting question, Steve. I do wonder...

You pretty much summed up what definitely went wrong with almost all commercial/commercial leaning material of the big classic prog bands into the '80's. Discipline ran into a similar problem as Cinema, and so they put back on the clothes of the Crimson King the way Cinema did with those of Yes. In general, it was the record companies' faults. This didn't on their own lead to quality problems with Yes, and least of all Crimson, but there you go.

Now Genesis... we do wonder what happened there. Record company meddling? Collins wanting to make and sell good pop? Banks doing the same??? Important thing to remember is that once Hackett left, Banks was the deciding factor in Genesis' direction... whether that was calling the shots or just rubber stamping Collin's shots is the question, as well as whether either/both only did it because of the record company.

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Posted: February 09 2015 at 17:20

As one of my favorite prog groups that changed, some say for the worse, in the 1980s, jazz/jazz rock band Passport beyond the late seventies and into the 1980s have a somewhat lighter sound compared to their early to mid seventies "classic" fusion period.

For me, time has been good to my appreciation of Passport in the 1980s. years ago, their 80s output was a "hard sell" for me, but now I find a lot of merit in their albums Ocean Liner, Earthborn, and Man In The Mirror from 1980 to 1983 respectively. (I have never heard 1981's Blue Tattoo) In the final analysis, it doesn't have to always sound like the seventies to please me when considering Passport. Band leader Klaus Doldinger still knew how to surround himself with great players, as evidenced on these 80s records. Even 86's Heavy Nights record has some interesting qualities.

My other favourite prog bands did not record in the 80s at all, so I can't comment on them, but I give Passport a passing grade, most definitely.

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Posted: February 09 2015 at 17:41

SteveG wrote:

And before someone cries Neo-prog, remember that only Marillion was signed to a major recording contract among the other new mid eighties British Neo-prog groups, and ONLY they had albums that charted in the eighties starting with the album A Script for a Jester's Tears.

True. Twelfth Night *almost* made it, but the subsidiary they were signed to was dissolved overnight, and by that time the music TN was making was 95-98% different from the music they recorded 5-6 years earlier.

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SteveG

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Posted: February 09 2015 at 17:46

^I thought that I might have needed to stress, that the reason for this was that no record company was interested in Neo-prog bands in the eighties, but I think members get the point.

Edited by SteveG - February 09 2015 at 17:52

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Posted: February 09 2015 at 19:09

I gave them a break for a little then generally lost interest in them.

Edited by Slartibartfast - February 09 2015 at 19:09

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

richardh

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Posted: February 10 2015 at 01:53

IQ were also signed to a major label although Nomzamo is still the weakest album in their entire catalogue mainly because Peter Nicholls got nervous about the whole thing and left the band before it was recorded (although obviously returned later).However it was only Marillion that made a significant breakthrough. Fish reckoned that there was only room for one and they were it.

The 80's is largely a weird decade. There was a surprising amount of good music being made considering the influence of MTV and radio was very unhelpful. The old bands came back and one or two made some acceptable stuff. ELPowell was a decent stab at old school prog, the record company actually not allowing Powell to use electronic drums ( a good idea as e-drums are a crime against rock music). I can't think of many bands that attempted this though with the likes of Yes and Genesis and even Camel doing sub AOR radio friendly stuff. The only old school bands though that managed to roll with the times and still make decent music were Rush and King Crimson (although KC in that decade does little for me but that's beside the point).

So apart from Rush and KC where was the good music I was talking about? It was on the fringes of prog. I can list great albums by Propaganda, Simple Minds, Al Stewart , OMD , Talk Talk, China Crisis. The Police, Kate Bush and many others. There was a lot of creative people at work and really in this decade you have to look beyond traditional prog if you want good music to listen to. Some of these artists are even now considered prog as the definition gets ever widened . I would also add that great British institution Iron Maiden who were a major influence on the prog metal scene. The Number Of The Beast , Powerslave , Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son and Somewhere In Time are great albums. Prog? Yes why not!

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Posted: February 10 2015 at 02:16

I wouldn't mind reexamining it, it's re-listening to it that I'd object to.

But seriously, as for Rush, if they were pressured after Moving Pictures' success, you'd think they'd have done more of that kind of thing-- but instead we got less teeth and more pablum. If Mercury were pushing them toward a more acceptable contemporary sound, it didn't set-in until the disastrous Grace Under Pressure four years later. But man did it ever, something terrible happened somewhere around 1983 that caused the band to just start cutting everything; complexity, depth, even their hair for crying out loud.

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Posted: February 10 2015 at 06:43

Atavachron wrote:

I wouldn't mind reexamining it, it's re-listening to it that I'd object to.

Yep, need to guard against a revisionism that is kinda like cramming for an examination we all failed a long time ago. Much is made of the prevalent technology that dominated the 80's recording world e.g. digital synths and drum machines, gated reverb, looped samples, programmed beats etc as if such were the underlying cause of poor music. I know it reeks of cliche but it's stubbornly true: garbage in = garbage out. Strong musical ideas, albeit couched in short radio friendly formats rendered on even the most sterile of digital presets will still prove resilient to any withering disavowal of Prog during the 80's. Cut to the chase: Yesterday by the Beatles would sound utterly wretched on Bolivian Nose flute, but you would still walk away in disgust whistling the tune. For a few short years during the 70's the things we liked were popular. That's tantamount to miraculous in a 1st world democratic marketplace, so treasure and celebrate it by all means but all said and done, we get the culture we deserve.

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Posted: February 10 2015 at 07:12

SteveG wrote:

Atco/Atlantic was also instrumental in pushing the band Cinema to use the defunct Yes moniker to help record sells as well as fawning over the Pop-like material that was to become the album 90125. Atlantic also orchestrated the debacle that was to become the album Reunion, based on commercial concerns. Atlantic also approved and supported the commercial direction that Genesis was to take and the company's support of Phil Collins' never ending Pop releases cannot be understated either.

It Bites were signed to Virgin and scored two top 10 albums, and a small string of top 10 singles in the UK... But overall I get your point about neo prog, with the exception of Marillion and It Bites it was fairly underground and unfashionable.

It's not all down to music industry pressure though. Bands only sell out if they actually want to. Genesis wanted to, and they sold out very badly actually transforming into a pop group. Yes, didn't go that far imo, even on 90125. It was a stylish modern commercial rock album and as with mosty Trevor Horn productions at the time was quite arty and original sounding.

As for Rush I know Alex was not happy about the dominance of synths in their music, but they did get back to letting the guitar take the lead and I don't read too much into their use of Reggae references in some of their early 80's music. The Police were one of Pearts favourite bands at the time. It's healthy for musicians to listen to different types of music, and what's happening at the time. It broadens their musical influences and allows them to 'progress' more. Had they just been listening to old men with beards and flared trousers playing organs and twin neck guitars their music would have stagnated and become completely uninteresting.

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Posted: February 10 2015 at 07:30

Jethro Tull did some incomprehensible crap with synths in the early 80s, even if Eddie Jobson joined the band (and then later Peter Vettese). The albums A, Broadsword and the Beast and particularly Under Wraps simply was not up to snuff in comparison to the ten-year classical period (1969's Stand Up to 1979's Stormwatch). There was a discernible decline in creativity and an annoying uptick in brazen 80s synths.

It wasn't until Crest of a Knave that Ian Anderson came to his senses. The album still has that annoying 80s sound in places, but Martin Barre's screaming guitar carries the workload, thank god.

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Posted: February 10 2015 at 08:27

The Dark Elf wrote:

Jethro Tull did some incomprehensible crap with synths in the early 80s, even if Eddie Jobson joined the band (and then later Peter Vettese). The albums A, Broadsword and the Beast and particularly Under Wraps simply was not up to snuff in comparison to the ten-year classical period (1969's Stand Up to 1979's Stormwatch). There was a discernible decline in creativity and an annoying uptick in brazen 80s synths.

It wasn't until Crest of a Knave that Ian Anderson came to his senses. The album still has that annoying 80s sound in places, but Martin Barre's screaming guitar carries the workload, thank god.

This is really funny! I wish I could meet more people in life who feel this way. I agree a hundred percent , but often have to deal with people's rolling eyes whenever I express this kind of honesty as you have. I really like your post! It expresses real truth.

SteveG

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Posted: February 10 2015 at 08:35

BLacksword wrote:

It Bites were signed to Virgin and scored two top 10 albums, and a small string of top 10 singles in the UK... But overall I get your point about neo prog, with the exception of Marillion and It Bites it was fairly underground and unfashionable.

It's not all down to music industry pressure though. Bands only sell out if they actually want to. Genesis wanted to, and they sold out very badly actually transforming into a pop group. Yes, didn't go that far imo, even on 90125. It was a stylish modern commercial rock album and as with mosty Trevor Horn productions at the time was quite arty and original sounding.

As for Rush I know Alex was not happy about the dominance of synths in their music, but they did get back to letting the guitar take the lead and I don't read too much into their use of Reggae references in some of their early 80's music. The Police were one of Pearts favourite bands at the time. It's healthy for musicians to listen to different types of music, and what's happening at the time. It broadens their musical influences and allows them to 'progress' more. Had they just been listening to old men with beards and flared trousers playing organs and twin neck guitars their music would have stagnated and become completely uninteresting.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I purposely avoided reference to It Bites because they did not self identify with Neo-prog and are indeed listed PA under Crossover Prog, which is quite apropos for them and their music.

Edited by SteveG - February 10 2015 at 09:11

SteveG

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Posted: February 10 2015 at 08:38

Atavachron wrote:

I wouldn't mind reexamining it, it's re-listening to it that I'd object to.

My feelings regarding these groups is one of "forgive and forget". Forgive their folly, but forget about actually listening to their music!

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Dean

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Posted: February 10 2015 at 08:49

Hmm.

The 1980s saw the burgeoning of the Independent Labels as a major force within music and many non-Prog bands saw considerable success in that era on those Indie labels (Beggars Banquet, 4AD, Factory, Mute, ZZT, Rough Trade, etc.,).

After their debut on an independent label, Pendragon were signed to EMI in the 80s, though only a live album was ever released on that label. Pallas faired better, with their debut (and I think sophomore) was released on the EMI progressive imprint, Harvest. None of those bands achieved the commercial success of Marillion so they were soon dropped. All of them subsequently signed to Indie labels of one form or another, again without commercial success.

With notable exceptions not many bands in the 1970s achieved much fame on major labels, and in this I do not count Transatlantic, Island, Virgin or Charisma as major labels, though they were not wholly independant either, however, I would I count subsidiaries and imprints such as Deram, Dawn, Vertigo and Harvest as a being part of a major.

The late 70s and early 80s saw the transition of these artists from major and minor established labels towards more specialist independent labels. None more graphically illustrate this than The Enid who went from the independent Buk Records, to signing with to EMI, then Pye and then back to indie (Mantella) and finally self-release. Fame and fortune eluded them at every step along the way, in spite of the mass of loyal fans they picked up during their live tours in the late 70s.

So, I do not think that the "blame" can be levelled at the disinterest of the major labels. Nor was it due to the failure of the Indie labels to gain any recognition for their albums. If anything in the 1980s being signed to an indie rather than a major would have been a boon not a hindrance.

So what was it? Public disinterest? Had the Prog scene become too commercial for the die-hard Prog fan and not commercial enough for Joe Average? Were Marillion more commercial than their Neo-Prog compatriots? The undoubtable poppiness of Kayleigh and Lavender aside, their unbroken list of non-Pop UK top-40 singles would suggest otherwise:

Title Chart Pos Date

He Knows You Know 35 Feb-83

Garden Party 16 Jun-83

Punch And Judy 29 Feb-84

Assassing 22 May-84

Kayleigh 2 May-85

Lavender 5 Sep-85

Heart Of Lothian 29 Nov-85

Incommunicado 6 May-87

Sugar Mice 22 Jul-87

Warm Wet Circles 22 Nov-87

Freaks (live) 24 Nov-88

Hooks In You 30 Sep-89

Easter 34 Apr-90

Cover My Eyes (Pain And Heaven) 34 Jun-91

No One Can 33 Aug-91

Dry Land 34 Oct-91

Sympathy 17 May-92

No One Can (re-issue) 26 Aug-92

The Hollow Man 30 Mar-94

Beautiful 29 Jun-95

You're Gone 7 May-04

Don't Hurt Yourself 16 Jul-04

Thankyou Whoever You Are 15 Jun-07

With Renaissance, it is worth remembering that they achieved "Pop" success in 1978 with Northern Lights, something that I believe that all concerned (band, major label and IRS) were keen to repeat. How they failed in that endeavour is open for debate, but it is not the fault of the buying public, who lapped up All About Eve's half-dozen Renaissance-influenced goth-lite top-40 hit singles in the 80s without complaint.

I believe two factors contribute to our view of this era in Prog's history - the Rock Press (whose influence cannot be ignored or excused) and thus the public that is undoubtably swayed by what they read in the press, and by those non-Prog bands whose success toppled Prog from its natural home in the hearts of the record-buying youth. Both these factors shaped the music that was being created and I would argue that this has a greater effect than any pressure by a record label or producer to be "more commercial".

Edited by Dean - February 10 2015 at 08:53

What?

altaeria

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Posted: February 10 2015 at 08:51

I never understand why prog guys get all upset if a song has a discernible verse and chorus anyway.

God forbid there might be a strong temptation to sing along with a catchy melody sometimes.

Following this logic-- With all their instantly anthemic hooks, The Beatles must've been the cheesiest band to ever exist.

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Posted: February 10 2015 at 08:56

TODDLER wrote:

It wasn't until Crest of a Knave that Ian Anderson came to his senses. The album still has that annoying 80s sound in places, but Martin Barre's screaming guitar carries the workload, thank god.

I am not sure how much "real truth" comes with my opinion, but there are and were numerous Tull fans (there are two main Tull sites/forums I still stop by) who were utterly dismayed with Under Wraps and other albums of its ilk.

I quite understand an artist's need to branch out and explore new ideas, but to me it seemed like Ian Anderson, egoist as he is, was more interested in band control and keeping up with the Jones's (in this case, maybe Howard Jones

) than making some profound artistic statement with f**king synths. Of course, John Glasscock died in 1979 and Ian decided to can Barrie Barlow, John Evan and David Palmer, which basically cut the heart out of Tull. They were really never the same thereafter, and I did not go along for the ride.

The same can be said of Yes and Genesis. Make your pop brainfarts, by all means, but don't expect me to gush about your newfound crass commercialism.

But one's interest in bands are cyclical, in my opinion, rather like personal relationships. They don't always last, some last longer than others, and some may be enduring. But the enduring ones are the rarest, if they happen at all. Except, of course, for my wife of 15 years (who is glaring at me currently).

Edited by The Dark Elf - February 10 2015 at 08:59

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SteveG

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Posted: February 10 2015 at 08:59

Dean wrote:

Hmm.

With a notable exceptions not many bands in the 1970s achieved much fame on major labels, and in this I do not count Transatlantic, Island, Virgin or Charisma as major labels, though they were not wholly independant either, however, I would I count subsidiaries and imprints such as Deram, Dawn, Vertigo and Harvest as a being part of a major.

Title Chart Pos Date

He Knows You Know 35 Feb-83

Garden Party 16 Jun-83

Punch And Judy 29 Feb-84

Assassing 22 May-84

Kayleigh 2 May-85

Lavender 5 Sep-85

Heart Of Lothian 29 Nov-85

Incommunicado 6 May-87

Sugar Mice 22 Jul-87

Warm Wet Circles 22 Nov-87

Freaks (live) 24 Nov-88

Hooks In You 30 Sep-89

Easter 34 Apr-90

Cover My Eyes (Pain And Heaven) 34 Jun-91

No One Can 33 Aug-91

Dry Land 34 Oct-91

Sympathy 17 May-92

No One Can (re-issue) 26 Aug-92

The Hollow Man 30 Mar-94

Beautiful 29 Jun-95

You're Gone 7 May-04

Don't Hurt Yourself 16 Jul-04

Thankyou Whoever You Are 15 Jun-07

My post and subsequent arguments were not intended to be all encompassing regarding this topic. I merely wanted to add another factor into this this topic which always seemed remiss to me. Namely the Record Industry's input into this complex issue, as they've always appeared as some kind of innocent bystander in Progressive Music's direction in the eighties. Something that was always far form the truth.

My own take on Marillion's chart success can only be seen as an anomaly or the result of bad business decisions on the part of EMI et al, which only adds fuel to the fire by pointing out that the overwhelming majority of major labels in the eighties avoided Prog like the plague.

Edited by SteveG - February 10 2015 at 09:16

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Posted: February 10 2015 at 09:08

Hi,

I have not studied this as much as I would like to but I am not sure that the "record companies" were exactly the problem, as was the distribution system that brought things to your local store. The material was out there, but all of a sudden most of the "imports" took a dive, and things did not exactly disappear as other record companies came up in the mid 70's that helped, like Jem, Wayside and many others.

The best person to discuss this would be Archie Patterson (if he would, not sure of this), as he was a distributor for over 30 years of Imports and a part of this stuff in California and oregon.

The thing that hurt the most was the combination of the big three for DISTRIBUTION purposes, which was called "WEA" (Warner, Elektra and Atlantic) and we could see the results in Santa Barbara, as a lot of the individual albums by many artists all of a sudden disappeared and replaced with extra copies of Rolling Stones, Elton John and other bigger name groups, to the point where some folks in a local store even said ... no one buys it ... and of course they never had any to prove it! But one other store in there started doing imports and did rather well, for quite sometime as far as I know, although I left Santa Barbara within a year or so of it starting.

Here in Portland/Vancouver area, my only outlet for any "imports" was Tower Records that finally went under when they converted to top ten ... which I had specified to the manager was stupid because they were known as a specialty store ... and all the Kmarts and Fred Meyers and everyone else had copies of the same thing they would also have! Sheer stupidity!

All in all, I think the distribution channels were the bigger issue. But, by that time (mid 70's on) we were already well established with Tower on the Strip, Warehouse in Westwood and Moby Disk, and we did not need the local crap house!

Despite all this, however, Space Pirate Radio did just fine when it came to new material and it never really ran out of stuff to play, because the station did not know the difference between a hit and just another hit and new music! And by the 80's I was already completely weened out of Genesis and Yes, because the Europeans were far superior in qualilty and quantity!

You just had to get off the "radio syndromme", or the "top ten" idiocy and mind corruption to learn and find the other stuff. Plain and simple. And this was the main reason why by 1990 when I got my first computer, I was saying that all these bands needed to get their own website and tell these "record companies" to take a hike! And many bands did, albeit a bit too slow. Gong was about 5 years late. Marillion was about the same. Porcupine Tree was independent from the start I think. And it all coincided with the rise of the new "prog" and "metal prog" that we hear so much today ... in other words, there was new music out there we had not heard yet.

Edited by moshkito - February 10 2015 at 09:18

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