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Guldbamsen 
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 22 2009
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 Posted: February 17 2015 at 15:59 |
Just like the rest of the album (and their second masterpiece Der Jesuspilz, which translates into the Jesus Mushroom) 
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20503
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Posted: February 17 2015 at 16:00 |
Belongs in the Psych Lounge! 
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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The Dark Elf
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
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Posted: February 17 2015 at 16:11 |
 paragraph7 wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
I am not dismissing Opeth but the whole silly death growl milieu. It's as silly to me as if all the death metal bands decided to start singing like Daffy Duck and then hear you say, "Oh no, Opeth doesn't sing like Daffy Duck, he sings like Donald Duck -- HUGE DIFFERENCE!" Ummm...no. |
Yeah, I had a feeling you were dismissing that particular technique and genre as a whole, that's basically what I was saying; it's the same as elderly people dismissing rock, classical enthusiasts dismissing anything that isn't classical and so on. That in a way connects with what the OP was posting about in the first place, that we are on a site where there is a bias towards a particular style of music (symphonic prog of the 70s) and my remark was meant to be just about that. I guess we need more death metal fanboys to come in and review some Genesis with remarks that Gabriel sounds like Mickey Mouse and give all albums 1 star  Just kidding.
I still accept your opinion though.
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Humorously, I like much of my parent's music and my grandparent's music. I have jazz and blues albums dating back to the 1920s. I like classical, I like bluegrass, I even like some country (Johnny Cash, Nitty Gritty Dirt Band). I like blues rock, hard rock, psych rock, prog rock, acid rock, folk rock, punk rock, post-rock, etc. I just don't like death growls. I don't think that shows a bias against "Today's albums versus the classics" as the title of this thread implies. I voted for ten albums I thoroughly enjoyed for the 2014 Collaborator's List, and only one, Pink Floyd, has any tie whatsoever to the "classics": 1. IQ - The Road of Bones 2. Stever Rothery - The Ghosts of Pripyat 3. Agusa - Högtid 4. Dream the Electric Sheep - Heretics 5. Atomic Ape - Swarm 6. Mostly Autumn - Dressed in Voices 7. Tim Bowness - Abandoned Dancehall Dreams 8. The Merlin Bird - Chapter and Verse 9. Pink Floyd - The Endless River 10. My Brother the Wind - Once There Was a Time When Time and Space Were One and the 2013 vote had only a few that reference directly back to classic prog, like Big Big Train and Steve Hackett: 1. Steven Wilson - The Raven that Refused to Sing 2. Big Big Train - English Electric, Part II 3. Kayo Dot - Hubardo 4. Riverside - Shrine of New Generation Slaves 5. Caligula's Horse - The Tide, The Thief & River's End
6. Moon Safari - Himlabacken, Vol. 1
7. Ayreon - The Theory of Everything 8. Anathema - Universal 9. Steve Hackett - Genesis Revisited at Hammersmith 10. Flower Kings - Desolation Rose So, how am I being "biased" against today's albums if I simply despise death growls?
Edited by The Dark Elf - February 17 2015 at 16:14
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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The Sloth
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 05 2013
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Points: 115
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Posted: February 17 2015 at 16:21 |
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Death Metal growls not quite as popular as traditional melodic singing? Who'd a thunk that? People perceiving that style of singing as fairly anti-social is not the same as the parents who shook their heads at the kids buying Zeppelin records. Robert Plant sang notes, expressed more than one emotion, did it in a way that people could understand what he was saying. That kind of stuff.
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The Dark Elf
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
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Points: 12688
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Posted: February 17 2015 at 16:28 |
The Sloth wrote:
Death Metal growls not quite as popular as traditional melodic singing? Who'd a thunk that? People perceiving that style of singing as fairly anti-social is not the same as the parents who shook their heads at the kids buying Zeppelin records. Robert Plant sang notes, expressed more than one emotion, did it in a way that people could understand what he was saying. That kind of stuff. |
Let me put it this way, how progressive are death growls when every death metal band does it and has been doing it for years? That is simply sheep following other sheep (well, perhaps they are black sheep). Stop the inanity! And there were plenty of songs no one could understand what the hell Robert Plant was singing. 
Edited by The Dark Elf - February 17 2015 at 16:28
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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paragraph7
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 06 2009
Location: Finland
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Points: 100
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Posted: February 17 2015 at 16:35 |
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Firstly, I never meant to accuse you of being biased towards anything other than the growls that you from the beginning were refering to. Hell, find me someone who only listens to stuff from 69-78 and you'll have one biased and narrow minded listener (if such a listener even exists). But that's besides the point. The only thing that struck me weird is to dismiss a certain genre on basis on a single technique. For example, I don't like Rap music but I still can see value in it if it's done with emotion and vision. I won't listen to it, but I won't dismiss it either. The same goes for all music I listen to. If it weren't like this then our reviews would just be about who screams the loudest, filled with ad-hominem banter (similar to your remark of Opeth "finally growing up" when deciding to leave out the growls). Opeth's Still Life has been critiqued far more valuably; the mix in particular has been attacked on numerous occasions, and this is a critique I am far more fond of reading.
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What you cannot speak of, you have to pass on in silence.
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The Dark Elf
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
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Points: 12688
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Posted: February 17 2015 at 16:40 |
paragraph7 wrote:
Firstly, I never meant to accuse you of being biased towards anything other than the growls that you from the beginning were refering to. Hell, find me someone who only listens to stuff from 69-78 and you'll have one biased and narrow minded listener (if such a listener even exists). But that's besides the point. The only thing that struck me weird is to dismiss a certain genre on basis on a single technique. For example, I don't like Rap music but I still can see value in it if it's done with emotion and vision. I won't listen to it, but I won't dismiss it either. The same goes for all music I listen to. If it weren't like this then our reviews would just be about who screams the loudest, filled with ad-hominem banter (similar to your remark of Opeth "finally growing up" when deciding to leave out the growls). Opeth's Still Life has been critiqued far more valuably; the mix in particular has been attacked on numerous occasions, and this is a critique I am far more fond of reading.
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It's okay, you can dismiss rap music. I will help you. We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest. But I thought the "finally growing up" statement was far less ad hominem than when I referred to Daffy and Donald Duck. Death duck growls!
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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paragraph7
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 06 2009
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 100
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Posted: February 17 2015 at 16:45 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Let me put it this way, how progressive are death growls when every death metal band does it and has been doing it for years? That is simply sheep following other sheep (well, perhaps they are black sheep). Stop the inanity! |
Your thought process here is what's inane. You are basically saying that because a trope has been used before it cannot be used ever again? Come on man. That's like saying that all the bands that have hammond organ solos after Deep Purple (or who ever was first) are at fault.
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What you cannot speak of, you have to pass on in silence.
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paragraph7
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 06 2009
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 100
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Posted: February 17 2015 at 16:50 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
It's okay, you can dismiss rap music. I will help you. We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest. But I thought the "finally growing up" statement was far less ad hominem than when I referred to Daffy and Donald Duck. Death duck growls! |
Fair enough. On a side note, I find it interesting that a friend of mine has dismissed most of progressive rock (especially stuff from King Crimson) as "not being music at all, just noise". And the irony? He finds growls perfectly normal.
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What you cannot speak of, you have to pass on in silence.
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The Dark Elf
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Joined: February 01 2011
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Posted: February 17 2015 at 16:57 |
paragraph7 wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Let me put it this way, how progressive are death growls when every death metal band does it and has been doing it for years? That is simply sheep following other sheep (well, perhaps they are black sheep). Stop the inanity! |
Your thought process here is what's inane. You are basically saying that because a trope has been used before it cannot be used ever again? Come on man. That's like saying that all the bands that have hammond organ solos after Deep Purple (or who ever was first) are at fault.
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Please, stop comparing death growls to Hammond organs. You'll hurt Mr. Hammond's feelings. You somehow think death growls are integral to death metal. I get that. My personal view is that it has been done ad nauseam, along with the silly Halloween aspects of the genre: banal gory lyrics, equally goofy band names (Cannibal Corpse, Disembowelment, Cock and Ball Torture, Dying Fetus -- ROFLMAO!), and album covers that belong in a George Romero film-fest. Opeth at least has some class and no more death growls. You obviously take it seriously. I laugh, shake my head and listen to something else.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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paragraph7
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 06 2009
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 100
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Posted: February 17 2015 at 17:03 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Please, stop comparing death growls to Hammond organs. You'll hurt Mr. Hammond's feelings. You somehow think death growls are integral to death metal. I get that. My personal view is that it has been done ad nauseam, along with the silly Halloween aspects of the genre: banal gory lyrics, equally goofy band names (Cannibal Corpse, Disembowelment, Cock and Ball Torture, Dying Fetus -- ROFLMAO!), and album covers that belong in a George Romero film-fest. Opeth at least has some class and no more death growls. You obviously take it seriously. I laugh, shake my head and listen to something else. |
Please, stop comparing Opeth to Dying Fetus. You'll hurt Mikael's feelings. The reason I take old-Opeth seriously is because their themes actually are about love, tragic loss, and our withering life. You'll be hard pressed to find a concept album about the loss of a loved one like Still Life from Cannibal Corpse. And btw, the bands you listed do not take themselves seriously either, it's all a joke to them as well. So you are not as far high up in that regard as you thought.
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What you cannot speak of, you have to pass on in silence.
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: February 17 2015 at 17:27 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
The Sloth wrote:
Death Metal growls not quite as popular as traditional melodic singing? Who'd a thunk that? People perceiving that style of singing as fairly anti-social is not the same as the parents who shook their heads at the kids buying Zeppelin records. Robert Plant sang notes, expressed more than one emotion, did it in a way that people could understand what he was saying. That kind of stuff. |
Let me put it this way, how progressive are death growls when every death metal band does it and has been doing it for years? That is simply sheep following other sheep (well, perhaps they are black sheep). Stop the inanity! And there were plenty of songs no one could understand what the hell Robert Plant was singing.
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This attitude shows you to be inane and childish. If you don't like the style, thats fine, I don't care as it's not going to be for everyone but going out of your to ridicule the exponents of said style is truly pathetic. As to the OP, yes there's a huge bias towards the 70's throughout the prog "community". There's been more than a few times that I've felt it to be rather stifling.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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The Dark Elf
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
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Posted: February 17 2015 at 17:46 |
sleeper wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
The Sloth wrote:
Death Metal growls not quite as popular as traditional melodic singing? Who'd a thunk that? People perceiving that style of singing as fairly anti-social is not the same as the parents who shook their heads at the kids buying Zeppelin records. Robert Plant sang notes, expressed more than one emotion, did it in a way that people could understand what he was saying. That kind of stuff. |
Let me put it this way, how progressive are death growls when every death metal band does it and has been doing it for years? That is simply sheep following other sheep (well, perhaps they are black sheep). Stop the inanity! And there were plenty of songs no one could understand what the hell Robert Plant was singing.
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This attitude shows you to be inane and childish. If you don't like the style, thats fine, I don't care as it's not going to be for everyone but going out of your to ridicule the exponents of said style is truly pathetic. |
I find it distracting and actually detracting from the musical content, some of which, like in Opeth's case, to be fine product otherwise. I also listed several other reasons which detract from the musical presentation and retards these bands from progressing (Opeth as an exception, as I noted). If that is childish and inane to you, I don't really give a damn. If it is silly, it is silly, and musically irrelevant. My opinion, of course. Sorry to have got your panties in a bunch.
sleeper wrote:
As to the OP, yes there's a huge bias towards the 70's throughout the prog "community". There's been more than a few times that I've felt it to be rather stifling.
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I think you're a bit constipated all on your own and need no external influence to be stifled.
Edited by The Dark Elf - February 17 2015 at 17:46
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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TradeMark0
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 26 2014
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 109
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Posted: February 17 2015 at 23:12 |
paragraph7 wrote:
That's like saying that all the bands that have hammond organ solos after Deep Purple (or who ever was first) are at fault.
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Jazz musicians did it first. Of course, there is nothing wrong with adopting an idea as long as you do something interesting with it.
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TradeMark0
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Joined: October 26 2014
Location: California
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Points: 109
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Posted: February 17 2015 at 23:39 |
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the death growl is probably the most monotonous form of singing.There is hardly any dynamic. It is just plain boring to listen to.
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Progosopher
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Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
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Points: 6393
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Posted: February 18 2015 at 00:05 |
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All reviews are biased to one degree or another. The trick is whether reviewers can explain their perspectives coherently or not. Knowledge has value. Appreciation corresponds with taste. Both can be cultivated but that is not always the case; both have limits. Nobody creates out of a vacuum. Nobody listens without reference to the context of their understanding and experience.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26156
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Posted: February 18 2015 at 01:19 |
Guldbamsen wrote:
paragraph7 wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
I know what you're saying, but this place would be extremely dull if people weren't allowed to have an opinion on an album simply because they hadn't been exposed to the style of music beforehand. Some times it can be refreshing to have an outsider looking in. Oh and why is it not valid not to like growls? I mean, people write off Yes, Can and Van Damme Generator because of Jon Anderson, Damo Suzuki and Peter Hammill. They're an acquired taste. Hell, I have a problem with certain types of accents applied to the English language. Danish, German and Swedish really rub me the wrong way. |
While I agree with you, I always hope to read reviews with insight to the music outside personal preference, and when I actually notice that a reviewer is going all Genesis-fanboy on the stuff that he is reviewing, I lose interest. But you are right, it is valid not to like growls, Hammill, or Jon Anderson, and no-one is forcing me to read those biased reviews either. What I said, after all, was that I found the review "hilarious", which again, is only my opinion.
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I know exactly what you mean. I always reference to the following review, but dammit I am such a sucker for it! This is one of my favourite reviews of one of my favourite artists on PA (Tangerine Dream and the album in question is Zeit), though getting completely slammed. Greenback certainly doesn't care for improvised space drones:
 What a shame! The music consists in 2-3 humming refrigerators at the same time, plus a portative fan that turns back and forth to make the anyway inexistent rhythm, and finally a coming cluster of threatening killer bees!There are tons of albums better than this one to describe the desolation once you go alone on Mars! The album is even not minimalist! Rating: 0.5 star
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The great thing about that review is that you know exactly what the music sounds like from just a few well chosen words. Many of us (myself included) can learn from that! The biased opinion is not important as ALL opinion is biased anyway.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625
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Posted: February 18 2015 at 01:30 |
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I don't know where to begin with the idiotic original post. Those albums got high rating because they were that good. You are just too infantile to appreciate that...
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26156
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Posted: February 18 2015 at 01:37 |
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'good' being entirely opinion based on what? Better musicianship? Better original writing? More innovation? I would say all of the above but then I do love a lot of modern prog because it has more clear objectives and focus and perhaps even more consistency. But we have to have a reference point and the famous albums give us that. In The Court Of The Crimson King is a for instance an album that gets 5 stars reviews all over the place because of its importance . But I wonder what the answer would be to this simple question ' When was the last time you listened to it?' . My answer would be 'I can't remember!'.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
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Location: Barcelona Spain
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Points: 5093
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Posted: February 18 2015 at 02:09 |
First of all we should not confuse, one thing is bias classic vs new, which is what I think the OP was referring to. A different thing is bias of styles, i.e. Symphonic or Classic Prog vs Death Metal as the thread seemed to be turning at some point.
I guess it's no surprise that the classics are revered, for those of us who were around at the time they have stood the test of over 30 years. We can not say that from any new album, we may like them a lot but only within 30 years we will be able to tell if we feel that they are classic masterpieces. For those of us old enough, it's simply not possible to compare them with equal footing. The young people who hear the classics now for the first time can of course compare them on equal footing to the new modern albums and tell which they find best, and if you do not find the classics as good as their ratings suggest, that's fine.
And about styles, it's also no surprise that in a Prog Rock site there are many members who don't care much for Death Metal honestly.
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Today's albums versus the classics: reviewer bias?