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Topic ClosedToday's albums versus the classics: reviewer bias?

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paganinio View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2015 at 02:51
Originally posted by ProgSword ProgSword wrote:

Do you think that albums released in retrospect are reviewed differently than albums released during PA's lifespan? I can't help but feel the overexposure of 70s albums in the top 100 might have a little to do with nostalgia and not just their quality.


If the reviewers grew up in the 70s they should like 70s albums more. Because you're more likely to connect with music when you're young. The overexposure of 70s albums means only one thing: There are way too many old people on the site! Star

Originally posted by ProgSword ProgSword wrote:

See Genesis as an example. I can't imagine an album like Nursery Cryme or The Lamb getting an overall of 4.42 and a 4.29 respectively in 2015.


These albums have had 40 years to prove their worth, so it's natural that people will give them higher scores. I mean, what would you give higher praise to, something that has entertained you for 20 years, or something that entertained you for two weeks (assuming they came out a little more than two weeks agoSmile)?

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by paragraph7 paragraph7 wrote:

The most hilarious example is when one particular reviewer dismissed Opeth's Still Life only on the basis of death growls. It's precisely the same as the parents of those born in the late 40's and early 50's who dismissed bands such as Led Zeppelin etc because they were playing too loud and screaming.
 
I'm sorry, but I still think death growls are idiotic and definitely detract from the composition. My view hasn't changed from the first time I heard them till the last. Plain stupid and corny. Opeth is a much better band without them, as evidenced by their last two albums. Looks like they finally grew up.


70s reviewers would go "I think distorted guitars (that don't even sound like guitars), long ambient passages and spacy sound effects are idiotic and definitely detract from the composition. Meddle is a much better album without them. "

Originally posted by ProgSword ProgSword wrote:

Makes me wonder how different the top album list would be if the internet and Progarchives existed in the late 60s.


I'll suggest that late 60s ProgArchives chart looks like:  
1. The Doors - The Doors (1967)
2. Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin (1969)
3. The Jimi Hendrix Experience - Electric Ladyland (1968)

And probably a lot of 50s Chuck Berry and 40s and 30s music, if the site had enough old people.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2015 at 03:15
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:


I guess it's no surprise that the classics are revered, for those of us who were around at the time they have stood the test of over 30 years. We can not say that from any new album, we may like them a lot but only within 30 years we will be able to tell if we feel that they are classic masterpieces. For those of us old enough, it's simply not possible to compare them with equal footing.

Well, for albums released before 2007, enough years have passed to grant them the "stood the test of time" status. I can now say that I have listened to Deadwing, The Mantle etc. for 7+ years and for me that's really a lot longer than King Crimson, Pink Floyd or any one of the classic 70s bands.

If it's an album released within the past five years, bias is undeniable, because they haven't been granted the "stood the test of time" status yet, and people will hesitate to give them good scores.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2015 at 03:23
^It's not my experience that people hesitate with good ratings - I'd say the exact opposite. Whenever Haken, IQ, Huge Train and a lot of other new acts release an album, we get one 5 star review/rating after another.

Oh and having known an album for 7 years isn't exactly the same as having lived with it for over 30 years

Fact if the matter is that we're all biased. You seem to be biased towards metal whereas I tend to lean towards Krautrock and strangeness more. It's called taste.

Edited by Guldbamsen - February 18 2015 at 03:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2015 at 07:15
Well, is it not the same for jazz or classical music? Sure there may be good music being made in all of these genres (not the right word for jazz/classical I know) but the time when they captured mainstream attention lies mostly in the past. And the albums/works that have attained classic status are the ones that are typically easily available for consumption. I have picked up Gentle Giant, Renaissance, Hatfield and the North from a large store in midtown Mumbai! Modern prog was/is much harder to obtain except perhaps for DT and PT (or bands not always regarded as prog by the mainstream, like Radiohead). In spite of being ignored lately by the media, classic prog still has significant reach and gets heard by more listeners. Anyhow on average, DT, PT, Opeth do get lots of positive reviews but expecting similar acceptance for albums by smaller bands may be wishful thinking.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2015 at 07:39
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

^It's not my experience that people hesitate with good ratings - I'd say the exact opposite. Whenever Haken, IQ, Huge Train and a lot of other new acts release an album, we get one 5 star review/rating after another.

Oh and having known an album for 7 years isn't exactly the same as having lived with it for over 30 years

Fact if the matter is that we're all biased. You seem to be biased towards metal whereas I tend to lean towards Krautrock and strangeness more. It's called taste.


Although I agree that we are always somewhat biased - and not only terms of genres, but also moods and situations in life that can affect our reviews - I still think it is possible to be open minded about music, rather than close oneself inside a box. For example, my favorite bands hail from prog, classic rock, modern rock, hard rock, heavy metal, power metal, progressive metal, black metal, melodic death metal, video game music and I also enjoy Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, Mahler and Bach, while I also like to listen to most Jazz and some purely electronic music. When counting all the sub genres and sub-sub genres of those, I really am past the point of dismissing music solely on the basis bias towards one particular genre. The only thing that I feel comfortable of dismissing outright is music that is made only to satisfy a market, where it is clear that no artistic expression was involved whatsoever (for example a Pop Star having others write their music and then not even being able to sing it without automatic pitch alteration and tuning).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2015 at 13:42
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

 Danish, German and Swedish really rub me the wrong way. 


Good for you that you don't have any of these accents then LOL

Or wait...Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2015 at 09:47

This is the hardest part of "reviewing" anything.

I do not have any ideas about reviewing and will not use any format, and in fact, I declined to some work for PA when the review I wanted to do was not approved, since the album listed was actually two albums, that already had reviews. Why would the review of this compilation be any different? Because I heard it with my dick in my ear?

All in all, when I review a film, or a work of music, it is on its own, and has nothing to do with anything else but itself. It might remind me of this or that but rarely will I mention that in music, since we like so much to help people with their adoration of the old material and think that today's is not as valuable ... as yesterdays! Well, heck to mergteroids ... we also think that Stravinsky and Beethoven was better than all this piddly rock music anyway ... so what's your point?

Now we have an issue ... today's music is not worthy of attention, and I'm on record as saying that today's rock/jazz/bs and what not is the classical music of the times and some will stand up and some won't ... but we won't be able to EVER see that, or make a dent in that history!

I just hope, that our appreciation of it all helps in the end, but it is not for you and I to say 50 years from now!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2015 at 09:59
Bias is inherent in any endeavor, and especially when it comes to formulating an opinion about quality. One thing to keep in mind regarding the '60s and '70s bands is that they are foundational to the genre. Hence, regardless of "fairness" to newer musicians, it is natural for reviewers to use the foundational work in any given genre or subgenre as a frame of reference.

For example, it is just as natural to evaluate Viennese classical using Haydn and Mozart as frames of reference as it is to evaluate bop in light of the contributions of Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, etc. And the same is true for fusion, in which Miles Davis and his many collaborators (Corea, McLaughlin, Zawinul, etc.) provide an enduring foundational reference. 

If one considers progressive rock as but one school of music akin to the many that came before and are sure to follow, then the inherent bias toward foundational works becomes understandable. Giving the inventors and popularizers of any musical genre or subgenre a few bonus points doesn't give me any heartburn.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2015 at 10:47
Hi,
^^^^^^^^ Thanks ... no heartburn for me, either.
 
I do think that a lot of younger folks, have an issue listening to different things, and sometimes, even classical music is an issue for them, and when you do that, you have a tendency to lose the over all view of music and its spread of the years and even centuries.
 
That, has nothing to do with me liking Albinoni over Vivaldi, or Bach over Handell! Which is just about what folks do here on the board in so many threads ... but that's another story.  And it gets boring suggesting other listens, and you know that person will never go listen to that now, on purpose ... like chocolate is bad for you!


Edited by moshkito - February 21 2015 at 10:48
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 04:22
Nostalgia is the bane of objectivity. That and anybody (anybody, even you) can be swayed by a large enough majority, even if only subconsciously. I feel like critics aren't taken to task enough for this kind of thing, either. So we get an echo chamber that just gets louder and louder. It could be saying utterly baffling things (like "Queen is good", or something) but no one wants to go up against that noise.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2015 at 03:31
  Bias but in a good way  Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2015 at 05:02
erm...it's perfectly OK for you to discriminate against music you don't think is very goodShocked
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2015 at 13:48
Originally posted by The Sloth The Sloth wrote:

<span style="line-height: 18.2000007629395px;">Death Metal growls not quite as popular as traditional melodic singing? Who'd a thunk that? People perceiving that style of singing as fairly anti-social is not the same as the parents who shook their heads at the kids buying Zeppelin records. Robert Plant sang notes, expressed more than one emotion, did it in a way that people could understand what he was saying. That kind of stuff.</span>


I'm not a big fan of death growls, but it's not accurate to suggest such singers are not singing in a way that people understand. In the case of Opeth and Mr Akerfeldt (sp) he sings more than one style and Opeth cover a variety of emotions, and the lyrics are a big part of the package. Their fans do understand what he's singing about.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 23:23
There is no shame in admitting that the artists who work in the early, founding days of an artistic movement like progressive rock, (or just plain rock music for that matter) have the advantage of creating when it's all exciting and new and unknown.  There is a freshness to this phase of artistic evolution that can't be repeated.  Once you have had the Beatles, no one can revisit that musical territory again without reminding everyone of the Beatles, and inviting unfavorable comparison.
If you want to make Progressive Rock today, you must understand how much of the low-hanging fruit has been picked by Yes, Genesis, Pink Floyd, King Crimson, and ELP.  You have to do something less obvious, less intuitive.  It is no surprise that people will always think of the earlier works as better.  There is no shame in following in such great footsteps.  But one must have realistic expectations for how one's work will be received.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2015 at 21:30
I really believe this depends on the age of the reviewer. It seems to me that there is a certain time in everyone's life when they are more heavily influenced by music than others (for most it's the teenage years). I still view Close to the Edge as a masterpiece, perhaps the greatest album of all time, but I'm sure there are others that have been released since that for whatever reason just didn't strike me the same way. Maybe we get busier as we get older and don't have the same time to really absorb the music? I don't know, but I don't think it's coincidence that nothing released in the last 20 years or so sounds as good to me as the 70's prog. I'm sure it has something to do with the time in my life that I discovered it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2015 at 01:33
Why Kubrick's 2001 - A Space Odissey is better rated than Nolan's Interstellar? For me the answer is easy and obvious, and is not a question of conspiracy or bias... just look those films and, honestly, compare them. Yesterday's albums are not better because they are classic - they are classics because they are better... IMHO. And personally I still listen it so much hours...Tongue

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2015 at 02:52
Originally posted by ProgSword ProgSword wrote:

Do you think that albums released in retrospect are reviewed differently than albums released during PA's lifespan? I can't help but feel the overexposure of 70s albums in the top 100 might have a little to do with nostalgia and not just their quality.

See Genesis as an example. I can't imagine an album like Nursery Cryme or The Lamb getting an overall of 4.42 and a 4.29 respectively in 2015.

This can go another way for newer works. Take Haken for example. Had we reviewed Aquarius and Visions in retrospect, I think Aquarius would get knocked down to a 3.75 and Visions bumped up to a 4.2. Very similar albums, which I've noticed some classic reviewers have knocked albums that are too similar to each other (like ITCOTKC and ITWOP, both of which I think are fantastic albums, but the latter never carried the same legacy as the former) but since Aquarius and Visions came out while the site existed, you're only seeing those differences from a contemporary viewpoint.

What do you think? Have you noticed any differences in how viewers look at classic albums versus contemporary ones? Makes me wonder how different the top album list would be if the internet and Progarchives existed in the late 60s.
ProgSword. hello Smile
It's difficult to answer your question, little known bands might be perceived as less considering that they have not proven themselves in terms of having an historical background however i.e. Pink Floyd to be honest their latest album although everyone had to own it and is so happy they released another album, they too have been reviewed with the most critical eye/ears simply because whatever they have released prior to this has always been above and beyond standard, also some believe without Waters it has a weakness.  
Considering the above, for any band including indie label bands, PA is the best site to be on, the reviewers on PA here have an identity of their own and are not dictated by monetary gain nor pressured by the music industry giants., unlike the Classic Prog Presents Prog and Rolling Stone Magazine etc. in other words "they do and say what they blimmin' want Wink here. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2015 at 10:46
Originally posted by freyacat freyacat wrote:

If you want to make Progressive Rock today, you must understand how much of the low-hanging fruit has been picked by Yes, Genesis, Pink Floyd, King Crimson, and ELP.  You have to do something less obvious, less intuitive.  It is no surprise that people will always think of the earlier works as better.  There is no shame in following in such great footsteps.  But one must have realistic expectations for how one's work will be received.
 
Newer bands will seldom attain the same level of recognition as the progenitors. This is particularly true in the realm of progressive electronic music, where Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Jean-Michel Jarre, Vangelis, Isao Tomita and Wendy Carlos (and I'll even add Synergy and Kraftwerk) will forever reign supreme. Some relatively newer acts, like Radio Massacre International, do well for themselves but will still never be regarded in the same way as the pioneers.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 09:03

Originally posted by yuribujuri yuribujuri wrote:

Why Kubrick's 2001 - A Space Odissey is better rated than Nolan's Interstellar? For me the answer is easy and obvious, and is not a question of conspiracy or bias... just look those films and, honestly, compare them. Yesterday's albums are not better because they are classic - they are classics because they are better... IMHO. And personally I still listen it so much hours...

A hug

I speak the same language and state it all the time. But I'm a "visual" person and listener, and I have not met many other folks that seem to do the same thing.  And I find it weird that someone can only "see" notes and chords, and have no emotional attachment otherwise to the music itself.

A lot of today's music, and there is an incredible amount of excellent material out there, is more geared towards the "song" and a "format", whereas in those days, it was more about the disintegration of the "format", and 2001 is a great example ... where the parts makes one wonder how they match and in essence, they can be shifted around and the film is still ... interesting and thought provoking.

My main thought, is that a lot of the material these days, is depending on LYRICS to tell you what it is about, and this is a bit of a falacy, besides having to do this in "order" so that the lyrics make sense ... and the story/event becomes clearer. I find this strange, as I like to make my own idea and view about the story ... instead of someone else's.

Reminds me of Godard ...saying that he did not want to make a film about politics ... or a political film ... he just wanted a film ... and he opens up a building (no front) and lets it go ... and in the end of the day ... it's like nothing happened, and you sit there and wonder ... what was this all about?

I have not heard, other than a recent Djam karet album, anything that does this for me at all. But then, I am not a fan of the song format at all! And depending on lyrics, is sometimes worse, but they do not (necessarily) need to be ignored or sidestepped.



Edited by moshkito - March 28 2015 at 11:34
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