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Topic ClosedCan the early 70s prog sound be cloned nowadays?

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Svetonio View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 00:32
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Back to the OP's intent, "Can the early 70s prog sound be cloned nowadays?"  

It is instructive to do a bit of research - "to clone" means "to make an exact copy of (a person, animal or plant)  
I don't think we are talking exactly of doing that - rather, making new music that hews very closely to the 70's prog formula = vocal harmonies (usually), odd time signatures, rock instrumentation (bass, drum, guitar) with some odd bits tossed in (organ, Mellotron, synth, piano), and perhaps visionary/mystical lyrical content.

Many have tried, but few have succeeded.  I think that the preexisting catalog of prog music actually deters experimentation, as the originators did.  Should we be using even more unconventional instruments, like trombone, tuba, etc.?  Or different influences besides European musical forms?  Some bands do this and are quite successful at it.  
 
Here's a band from Spain (already in PA due to my suggestion) and a song from their debut album that I already mentioned earlier in this thread as an example of stunning retro-prog; a live and the studio version of one of their songs, both for your pleasure:
 
 
 
 
ONE OF THESE DAYS & Thee Heavy Random Tone Colour Lab
The word or instructions for taking opium on a roof
Live at Sala Mardigras (8th November 2013)
 
 
 
From the album A Peaceful Nacht In Hell

(2013)
 
 
p.s. I apologize to the forum moderators because I posted the embedded vids and also to the forum members who can not watch these vids, but It was stronger than me.
 
 
 


Edited by Svetonio - February 27 2015 at 01:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 00:53
Stop being a Richard.





p.s. I apologize to the forum moderators because I called Svetonnio a Rochard and also to the forum members who are called Richard, but It was stronger than me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 08:07
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTvZ6ZqOhyo
This is something that can't be cloned. The natural reaction between an audience and a band.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 08:26
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B3J_Alj7IU
If you watch the vid beginning around 3:17, Wakeman discusses how everything falls into place naturally. In point , this is a better way of creating original music rather than focusing on what can be cloned.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 09:08

Hi,

There is something on this thread that you folks got to take a look at.

In Califfornia, in one of the Universities there was a major project that create something called "Emily". She was a magnificant musician and could do all styles and show off her versatility and one day she put out a couple of CD's that a lot of people bought to the excitement of the university, of course!

She could, easily, compose just like Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Beethoven ... and everyone liked her work.

One day, she was asked to do a concert and they set her up and she was on stage beautifully dressed when the audience came in and in the introduction, they were told that Emily would play new works in the manner of any composer they wanted.

Half the audience walked out! They were the same hippocrits that also liked her music before!

The other half was amazed at how well she could clone the originals ... but that it did not help further the music development.

Emily is still there ... kinda frozen in time, putting together a few pieces here and there, but some folks that "like the style" don't like her "style" which is as original as can be without being a copy!

So, if you EVER, want to deal with this, go listen and study Emily a little. She's not a fine woman for you to sleep with, but she does have really good vibes and pipes! Unffortunately, you might think that she's a bit too rigid and not fun, albeit a bit electric!

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 09:57
The 'Emily Howell' algorithm follows a set of adaptive rules, albeit very complex style and composition rules. This is no different to Wakeman playing nursery rhymes in the style of Mozart or Ravell.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 10:03
^Wow. Clap
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 10:53
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The 'Emily Howell' algorithm follows a set of adaptive rules, albeit very complex style and composition rules. This is no different to Wakeman playing nursery rhymes in the style of Mozart or Ravell.
 
Very educational and a very interesting viewpoint.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 11:45
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

There is something on this thread that you folks got to take a look at.

In Califfornia, in one of the Universities there was a major project that create something called "Emily". She was a magnificant musician and could do all styles and show off her versatility and one day she put out a couple of CD's that a lot of people bought to the excitement of the university, of course!

She could, easily, compose just like Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Beethoven ... and everyone liked her work.

One day, she was asked to do a concert and they set her up and she was on stage beautifully dressed when the audience came in and in the introduction, they were told that Emily would play new works in the manner of any composer they wanted.

Half the audience walked out! They were the same hippocrits that also liked her music before!

The other half was amazed at how well she could clone the originals ... but that it did not help further the music development.

Emily is still there ... kinda frozen in time, putting together a few pieces here and there, but some folks that "like the style" don't like her "style" which is as original as can be without being a copy!

So, if you EVER, want to deal with this, go listen and study Emily a little. She's not a fine woman for you to sleep with, but she does have really good vibes and pipes! Unffortunately, you might think that she's a bit too rigid and not fun, albeit a bit electric!

 
Thank you for this story!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 11:58
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

 
Thank you for this story!
 
The point I wanted to make was that it didn't matter if we cloned or not ... we're too silly to know the difference and appreciate anything anyway, without the commercial bruhaha, or the PA bruhaha .... which is just like saying that we will never know, understand or even appreciate anything that clones anything because it is automatically "cold" and a "machine", and sex is not likely to be fun unlike some of the sci-fi books have told us!  And Dean will add the professorial notes to the article!


Edited by moshkito - February 27 2015 at 11:59
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 19:46
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

 
Thank you for this story!
 
The point I wanted to make was that it didn't matter if we cloned or not ... we're too silly to know the difference and appreciate anything anyway, without the commercial bruhaha, or the PA bruhaha .... which is just like saying that we will never know, understand or even appreciate anything that clones anything because it is automatically "cold" and a "machine", and sex is not likely to be fun unlike some of the sci-fi books have told us!  And Dean will add the professorial notes to the article!


If Dean writes notes to a sci-fi sex manual I'll queue up in the pouring rain for him to sign my copy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 20:25
The Emily Howell program is very interesting. I hadn't heard of this. It's naturally unsettling for living things to hear that a machine can be made to have its own ideas. People learn, work, make plans, know they're going to die...and a machine is born with an encyclopedic knowledge of all music, and will never have to wait for the moment of inspiration? Sure, that can make a guy feel completely useless. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 20:32
The program does not "have ideas", it is not sentient, it is not intelligent and it is not creative. It is an algorithm that follows a complex set of rules. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 21:39
Have you read Computer Models of Musical Creativity? Just out of curiosity. They say "she" has her own style in the article I read. Music is created out of experience, ability, memory, and the climate of the creator's life at the time of the creation. It's just interesting to think of a composer with a sharper memory, or the ability to weed out music that is recycled unknowingly by humans all the time, for example.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 05:10
^Interesting, would you give more details about this reading? Anyways it's obvious that a composer with a sharper memory doesn't need to be machine programed with that 'sensitive' The Emily Howell algorithm in order to compose something new. And I bet to see when these sorts of programs can make "she" capable of feel anger, love, nostalgia, anguish, sadness joy etc., music is all about this man.


"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 05:44
The recent biopic of Alan Turing is called "The Imitation Game", its title comes from a game where players have to decide the gender of a human respondent by a series of written questions, this he later developed into the Turing Test for machine intelligence, or more accurately the perception of machine intelligence, since the machines involved were imitating human intelligence rather than achieving intelligence. The key difference between the Turing Test and 'Emily Howell' is the interaction between the human interrogator and computer respondent. 'Emily Howell' does not respond to audience interrogation, it is merely imitating a human composer and the audience is passive in this scenario.

Originally posted by The Sloth The Sloth wrote:

Have you read Computer Models of Musical Creativity? Just out of curiosity. They say "she" has her own style in the article I read. ... It's just interesting to think of a composer with a sharper memory, or the ability to weed out music that is recycled unknowingly by humans all the time, for example.
I haven't read it, but bearing in mind that it was written by Emily's creator David Cope, then any assessment or conclusion he draws regarding "its" creativity and style is inherently biased, as is any assessment we can draw from reading it. This bias also appears in the published works that the program has produced since Cope has selected pieces for general release and in doing so he is part of the creative process that he created. 

I should point out that while I have been calling "Emily Howell" an algorithm and a program, it is in reality a suite of algorithms that follow predefined rule-sets and analytical processes. How much human intervention is involved is unknown since even that intervention process can be automated following yet more rule-sets and those intervention rule-sets are merely replicating an IF ... THEN ... ELSE construct that the human would apply as the result of a particular analysis. For example there would be rule-sets for resolving a 'wrong-note', and, as you say, to weed out recycled music. Application of those intervention rule-sets are themselves subject to intervention processes that again can be automated following yet more rule-sets. With time and more analysis the program-suite could even determine which pieces to release and which to discard based upon whatever criteria Cope himself uses when choosing 'Emily Howell' pieces for the pubic to hear. 

In observing the creation process in a band environment I can recall several occasions where a riff was discarded because it sounded "too much like Slayer" or "too much like Maiden", the creation process is as much about discarding as it is about inventing and all composers apply rule-sets of this kind, whether they are aware of them or not.

[Unlike infinite monkeys producing the entire works of Shakespeare where one wrong word in a monologue results in failure of the entire piece ("To be or not too be"), a 'wrong note' is not only acceptable, it is, from a pseudo-creativity perspective, desirable.]

The program-suite began as a style-imitator, and that is what it still does, albeit in imitation of a style that can be called "her" own that has resulted from the development process. That development process is wholly human since the 'Emily' program suite can only create musical notes, it cannot create algorithms or write computer code. The program suite has been created to compose classical music, it cannot create a pop song because the rules for a pop song have not been coded into the algorithms. 

I can use dice to create music. The roll of a die can be used to select a note, another to select note-length and thus a sequence of notes can be created, and since those dice rolls are random it will sound random and musically unsatisfactory. To make it sound more musical I can apply rules to each roll that are determined by the previous roll or rolls, for example I can limit the palette of notes to a particular musical scale and then determine which of those to pick based upon the preceding note using very simple rules of harmony and rhythm. Now the creation of note-sequences appears to be analytical because it is no longer purely random, yet no actual analysis is involved, it is still a sequential process of placing one note after another. The more rules I apply the more a distinct style will develop, but that style is decided by the rules I create, not by the random sequence of dice rolls. I have automated the creation process but not the creativity process. The more rules that come into play the less random and automaton the piece becomes, but it is still a pseudo-organic mimicry, and these rules are not unique to this algorithm, they are the same rule-sets that any human composer would employ when composing, even when improvising. [We've discussed improvisation several times before and although some people will claim some instinctive, metaphysical or mystical processes are involved during free-form improv., rules are still being applied, albeit instinctively or subconsciously. Improv. is not created without knowledge and experience of music and playing an instrument.]

While personally I shy away from purely automated music composition and note-sequence creation, I have composed music based upon predetermined rule-sets, for example Metamorph is composed from a simple 10-note pentatonic melody where only one note was permitted to change in each bar.

Originally posted by The Sloth The Sloth wrote:

...Music is created out of experience, ability, memory, and the climate of the creator's life at the time of the creation...
This is pivotal. A computer algorithm cannot call upon this wealth of non-musical experience. A program cannot read an article in a newspaper and then compose a piece of music based upon its reaction to that text unless an imitation of that emotional experience is coded into the program suite. 

For example Steven Wilson's latest album (Hand.Cannot.Erase) was produced as a result of a real-life event that was the subject of a TV documentary, for a computer program suite to create such a work the human emotional baggage that triggered his reaction has to be analysed and coded since it cannot create such a response itself.



Edited by Dean - March 01 2015 at 05:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 09:05
^ Well said.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 09:25
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The program does not "have ideas", it is not sentient, it is not intelligent and it is not creative. It is an algorithm that follows a complex set of rules. 
 
In other words, she's a "clone" ... but not one that will be given any attention any time soon!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 09:46
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The program does not "have ideas", it is not sentient, it is not intelligent and it is not creative. It is an algorithm that follows a complex set of rules. 
 
In other words, she's a "clone" ... but not one that will be given any attention any time soon!
Of course that depends upon your definition of "clone". I take a perhaps more rigid definition than many are applying here, in that a clone must be a 100% facsimile of the original in every respect so that it is impossible to tell them apart, by that definition the program-suite is not a true clone in the same way that an actor playing the role of Richard III is not a clone of the original Tricky Dicky but merely someone interpreting the character-algorithm (dialogue, stage direction etc.,) created by Bill Tremblestick some 420 years earlier. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 10:25
Yeah, it has, and several of my favorite bands (Opeth and Pain of Salvation namely) have made drastically worse music since they started looking to the 70s for inspiration.
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