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Rednight View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: When ELP Jumped the Shark
    Posted: February 24 2015 at 09:46
It is generally accepted, I've gathered, that Love Beach was ELP's creative low point, but what exact song in the trio's catalog signaled the end of their most productive era and truly proved that the band had "jumped the shark"? For those still needing an explanation of the phrase "jump the shark," it's a reference to an episode of the popular American TV comedy Happy Days parodying the '50s in which a character named Fonzie jumps a shark tank on his motocycle. The episode was immediately heralded as the beginning of the end for the show, quality-wise, and since then, jumping the shark has been applied to that point in time when other TV shows (and careers) have gone sour. Anywho, my vote goes to Works I's Hallowed Be Thy Name. Goofy as all get out but understandable among the mish-mash of other selections on that album. Still, a big let-down that gave one the sense that things were beginning to wrap up for a once formidable prog giant.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 10:18
They peaked with the wonderful Brain Salad Surgery and then declined gradually from there, but still produced a lot of great music along the way on the Works albums and ELPowell plus a few decent tracks on Black Moon. Love Beach was a disappointment compared to what went before but I don't think it equated to 'jumping the shark' as it's still an okay album music-wise (the title and cover photo are obviously a different matter). 1994's In The Hot Seat is where they truly vaulted the said toothy fish as, even as an ELP diehard, I'm struggling to think of anything positive to say about it - it's the one album I wish ELP hadn't made.

Personally speaking I think most of the original bands had "jumped the shark" Prog-wise by the early 80s - ELP actually took a bit longer!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 11:02
Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

what exact song in the trio's catalog signaled the end of their most productive era and truly proved that the band had "jumped the shark"?


The Christmas one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 11:46
Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

It is generally accepted, I've gathered, that Love Beach was ELP's creative low point, but what exact song in the trio's catalog signaled the end of their most productive era and truly proved that the band had "jumped the shark"? For those still needing an explanation of the phrase "jump the shark," it's a reference to an episode of the popular American TV comedy Happy Days parodying the '50s in which a character named Fonzie jumps a shark tank on his motocycle. The episode was immediately heralded as the beginning of the end for the show, quality-wise, and since then, jumping the shark has been applied to that point in time when other TV shows (and careers) have gone sour. Anywho, my vote goes to Works I's Hallowed Be Thy Name. Goofy as all get out but understandable among the mish-mash of other selections on that album. Still, a big let-down that gave one the sense that things were beginning to wrap up for a once formidable prog giant.
 
Emerson , Lake, and Palmer were 3 individuals with different music tastes and when they composed, it was very obvious that their personal directions in music could have very well been conflicting with each other personally. Carl Palmer was definitely interested in following Keith Emerson's direction and enjoying himself with the gymnastic aspect to it. Apparently it appealed to him which is why the 2 of them were such a perfect pair regarding their interplay during live transmission, but still...Carl Palmer liked different kinds of music that didn't appeal to Keith Emerson...so perhaps Palmer was there to take a ride and have fun.


All 3 of them "sold out" with a degree of commercialized formula type material. Carl Palmer produced some more commercially viable material with Asia. Keith Emerson produced some "Funk" oriented commercial sounding 80's mainstream material on his solo album "Changing States" ...but he also recorded "Hang On To A Dream" when he was in The Nice. The song was written by Tim Hardin..(I believe), but Emerson had an interest in songwriting and to understand that you have to view his entire career and pick up on the essence of it.  "Hang On To A Dream" was a commercially viable song that even Jeremy Spencer from Fleetwood Mac covered at the BBC and as Spencer had an interest in songwriting more than Progressive Rock. He disliked "In The Court Of The Crimson King" and most Progressive Rock in general. Keith Emerson also had skills to be a commercial songwriter and Jeremy Spencer was covering the song like The Nice did ...so keep in mind that Emerson could have already composed commercially viable songs ...on his own...that were never released...and many years before the release of Tarkus.

Greg Lake was then ...and is now...still..a full scale one hundred percent skilled commercial singer/songwriter. Beginning with "Lucky Man", which many people may not think that to be commercial, but in 1971..it could have been..because it really did not differ THAT MUCH from a commercial "Folk Rock" song on AM radio in the 70's. "From The Beginning" was a little more crafty and much smoother and could actually be compared to a Jazzy Folk oriented tune written by Joni Mitchell in the late 70's. As time progressed Greg Lake made attempts to be more mainstream sounding and it is evident that exists on Works Vol. I.     ELP worked very hard  at being progressive...no doubt...but Emerson and Lake were ..aside from that...skilled songwriters. Carl Palmer had a personal interest in that aspect to writing as well..as he has a track record of working with singer/songwriters..unlike Jeff Beck who gave up on singer/songwriters and released successful instrumental albums in the 70's. I believe that ELP were under the same pressures from the record companies that every other Progressive Rock band was under during that particular time period. Most of those pressures revolved around getting rid of the drawn out progressive side and replacing it with more contrived material and that's around the time Love Beach was released. 


Edited by TODDLER - February 24 2015 at 11:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 12:28
While I don't believe they did a total jump, certainly aspects of their careers did, specifically the Love Beach LP cover or the absolutely dreadful 'Taste of My Love' from that same album. I think I actually laughed out loud and shook my head when I first heard that song.

To illustrate this more clearly, Triumvirat came similarly close with A La Carte but totally jumped with Russian Roulette.

Rick Wakeman jumped with his 'Listzomania' performance. But his music continued to delight...most of the time.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 14:01
In the Hot Seat wasn't great so that would be my vote. Personally, Hallowed Be Thy Name is a great song!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 14:04
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

While I don't believe they did a total jump, certainly aspects of their careers did, specifically the Love Beach LP cover or the absolutely dreadful 'Taste of My Love' from that same album. I think I actually laughed out loud and shook my head when I first heard that song.


 
I agree totally although there was a 'sleazy' aspect of ELP's lyrics which seemed to surface occasionally. Jeremy Bender , Living Sin and So Far To Fall are other examples. Those are redeemed a little with some great playing while A Taste Of My Love has the ..errrm synth horn sound not a lot else.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 14:09
when they reformed in 1977, based on what i know from their history.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 14:20
Originally posted by Michael678 Michael678 wrote:

when they reformed in 1977, based on what i know from their history.
 
The Orchestral Tour? They lost a million dollars a gig and had to stop after 4. The music press certainly tore into them about that time but in my opinion the music was still largely intact and Works has some great tracks. Probably with hindsight they should have only released a single album maybe mixing up Volume One and Two and it might have played better with the public at least.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 15:10
Definitely after Brain Salad Surgery it was going down hill fast.  Although I really didn't think Love Beach was as bad as some would say.  I think Love Beach was derailed by the stupid album cover and the title track.  The officer and a gentleman bit wasnt bad.  Canario is awesome.  To be honest, I dont find Love Beach any better or worse than Black Moon or Hot Seat.   I think Emerson, Lake and Powell album was possibly the only good thing they did after Brain Salad Surgery.  

I still like the episode of Cheers where Rebecca Howe said she worked for the prestigious law firm, Emerson Lake & Palmer.  HAHAHAHA!  Maybe you've heard of them?!  LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 15:34
Originally posted by Wanorak Wanorak wrote:

In the Hot Seat wasn't great so that would be my vote. Personally, Hallowed Be Thy Name is a great song!!

If you like bad, off Broadway show tunes.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 17:29
I don't think "jumping the shark" is the right expression for what ELP went through. As great as they were together it was always clear that they did not really fit naturally, like say, Lifeson Lee and Peart did in Rush. Emerson, Lake and Palmer were quite different musicians, they did some great stuff together but each had his own vision, and after their great success up to Brain Salad and the Welcome Back tour each of them felt powerful enough to demand his own vision to have a place, and Works I was the result. Not really a band album anymore but it still had plenty of top-class music. Works II was IMHO the turning point, and the Orchestral Tour failure had a huge negative effect especially on Emerson, he went into some depression because of that.

But "jumping the shark" implies that they went so far as to become ridiculous, and I don't think we can say that from ELP, they just got victims of their musical discrepancies and the period when the interest for that kind of music quickly vanished. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 19:24
Works I was the beginning of the end. The whole concept of the individual sides for each was portentous. Then the whole orchestra fiasco. Cringeworthy, really. Compared to the glory of 1970-1974? I shake my head in disbelief how a band as marvelous as they were on their first five (6 if you count Welcome Back...) came out with stuff I really dislike in the late 70s. I compare it to the Moody Blues. Their essential 7 were sublime (my opinion) and I love most of what they did in that time period '67-'72. After that I can't even hear one note without cringing. They did a couple songs in 80s that were ok, but the 70s? Yuk. And yet I consider them, and ELP, to be in my top five fav bands. Rush- same thing. Their 80s 90s stuff I can't get into, but give me their good time 70s classics and I'm good to go.

Maybe my tastes stay the same but the musicians move on and I can't get over it. My problem then. I'm still listening to stuff from my youth (60s-70s) and loving that great music even more now! Once in a while I'll find a great "new" band (like Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson) but I can't help but go back to the old stuff.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 19:42
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

I don't think "jumping the shark" is the right expression for what ELP went through. As great as they were together it was always clear that they did not really fit naturally, like say, Lifeson Lee and Peart did in Rush. Emerson, Lake and Palmer were quite different musicians, they did some great stuff together but each had his own vision, and after their great success up to Brain Salad and the Welcome Back tour each of them felt powerful enough to demand his own vision to have a place, and Works I was the result. Not really a band album anymore but it still had plenty of top-class music. Works II was IMHO the turning point, and the Orchestral Tour failure had a huge negative effect especially on Emerson, he went into some depression because of that.

But "jumping the shark" implies that they went so far as to become ridiculous, and I don't think we can say that from ELP, they just got victims of their musical discrepancies and the period when the interest for that kind of music quickly vanished. 




well said... 

ELP could be said to be the group that summed up 70's prog rock. What people loved about it....and more to the point.. they were the group that DEFINTELY summed up everything that people (i.e. critics and idiots with safety pins in their noses) hated about prog rock. They were the brightest flame.. thus had the biggest target painted upon them and when prog fell out of favor.. ELP was the obvious (and easy LOL) target. Thus they became perhaps the world's most reviled group. Why? not because they are bad. Hardly.. it is just because they (and prog rock) was such an easy target and since ELP was a band that everyone knew. It made more sense to sh*t all over them than groups like King Crimson or Genesis that had loyal but fringe fanclubs. ELP weren't prog rockers.. they were on the same level as Floyd, Zep and the Who in terms of notoriety, fame, popularity... what ever you want to call it.



Edited by micky - February 24 2015 at 19:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 20:01
Yep- the bigger they are the harder they fall. ELP epitomized the rise and fall of prog. There was nowhere they could go but down after BSS. Definitely were targeted, unfairly, in many ways. Probably some of the most gifted musicians in rock, but loved and hated at the same time, even amongst themselves!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 21:07
ELP at their best was capable of jumping the shark and making people love it. Pictures at an Exhibition was way over the top - kind of like showing up at a canasta tournament with a howitzer. Who else could have stuck cheesy lyrics on the Great Gate of Kiev and gotten away with it? The album is a completely ridiculous gesture of rebellion that turns a familiar and well-loved classic into a weapon against the establishment. What makes it great is that it is such reckless fun.

The flying piano stunt at California Jam was regarded at the time by many as an equivalent of ELP jumping the shark. What kind of rock and roll is this? It was yet another example of reckless fun that was adored by the fans and hated by, well, just about everybody else.

Works kind of stumbled over the shark - and it was no longer so much fun because the band began taking itself more seriously, and the cracks were obvious. But the tour was great (still lots of reckless fun).

And then there's the infamous Love Beach album cover. Reckless as hell, but no fun at all. As was the case for so many great bands around that time, things were never the same again. I guess there's a limit to how many sharks you can jump.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 23:47
Originally posted by RockHound RockHound wrote:

ELP at their best was capable of jumping the shark and making people love it. Pictures at an Exhibition was way over the top - kind of like showing up at a canasta tournament with a howitzer. Who else could have stuck cheesy lyrics on the Great Gate of Kiev and gotten away with it? The album is a completely ridiculous gesture of rebellion that turns a familiar and well-loved classic into a weapon against the establishment. What makes it great is that it is such reckless fun.

Clap

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2015 at 10:48
I suppose at Works Vol 1.....while there are some nice bits on that it has nothing to compare to the earlier albums.
But I never really cared for all the silly 'beerhall' tracks they did on the earlier albums either.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2015 at 14:27
Originally posted by RockHound RockHound wrote:

ELP at their best was capable of jumping the shark and making people love it. Pictures at an Exhibition was way over the top - kind of like showing up at a canasta tournament with a howitzer. Who else could have stuck cheesy lyrics on the Great Gate of Kiev and gotten away with it? The album is a completely ridiculous gesture of rebellion that turns a familiar and well-loved classic into a weapon against the establishment. What makes it great is that it is such reckless fun.

The flying piano stunt at California Jam was regarded at the time by many as an equivalent of ELP jumping the shark. What kind of rock and roll is this? It was yet another example of reckless fun that was adored by the fans and hated by, well, just about everybody else.

Works kind of stumbled over the shark - and it was no longer so much fun because the band began taking itself more seriously, and the cracks were obvious. But the tour was great (still lots of reckless fun).

And then there's the infamous Love Beach album cover. Reckless as hell, but no fun at all. As was the case for so many great bands around that time, things were same again. never the I guess there's a limit to how many sharks you can jump.
 
Worth blowing up that commentClap (metaphorically speaking although ELP would have done it literallyLOL)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 15:35
1974
Pretty cheesy album with some cool moments on karnevil
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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