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Progosopher 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
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Points: 6393
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 Posted: February 28 2015 at 21:11 |
 BrufordFreak wrote:
Progosopher wrote:
For the sake of simplicity I voted 'Other' instead of clicking on all the options because each and every one contributed. These are not the only roots, however, and many good suggestions have been mentioned already. I reject the notion that there is one cause, one beginning moment, one point where Prog or anything else became what it is. There are always multiple causes, not the least of which are certain conditions that promote such developments. In the case of Prog, both an openness to experimentation and training in music were aspects with wide-ranging results. Given the existence of rock, classical, jazz, and an openness to mixing musical styles, something like Prog would almost be an eventuality. To get away from references to Delta Blues or ancient musics, a clear definition of 'Prog' would be in order, but that is the most difficult thing to define on this site. Mostly, I think, because people try to limit it to a single concise definition when it is too broad for that in much the same way people insist on a single cause for something. This is not to say we cannot identify the characteristics of something specific because we most certainly can.  |
Great response with which I whole-heartedly agree. My above analogy of prog as a tapestry is not unfounded. |
A good analogy indeed.  Note that the final result relies on an illusion - where you look so closely as to identify the individual threads you have completely missed the picture itself. The threads are essential of course, as atoms are essential but we cannot say that the threads and atoms are the same as the things they make up. The whole has its own characteristics independent of the mere sum of its parts. So too is the case with Prog. It is the elements combined in a certain way that makes Prog what it is. Note that many of these same elements also create Blues, Country, Jazz, Classical, etc. In the original Cosmos series, Carl Sagan showed a large glass beaker containing 150 pounds of water. Next to it was smaller glass beaker containing a few pounds of charcoal briquettes. Next was a small vial of trace elements. These represented the approximate amounts of these substances in the human body. He then mixed them all together, stirring up a gross sludgey gray mess in the large beaker. Then he asked, "Now, why don't I have a human being?"
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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BrufordFreak
Collaborator
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Joined: January 25 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 7955
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Posted: February 28 2015 at 21:44 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
I've always felt that the beneficial influence afforded to drugs on any creative endeavor to be completely spurious. The idea that if someone like Syd Barrett, the Beatles, Pete Townshend, Stones, Ray Davies etc hadn't been chipped off their tits, they wouldn't have been able to fashion such innovative and unprecedented music is putting the cart before the horse. Judging by most of the aforementioned's testimonies to the creative process, these classic songs are arrived at when sitting on a bus/train/fence, reading a book, waking up in the morning, having a piss/dump, staring into the middle distance, night/day-dreaming, walking the dog or hearing/seeing a simple phrase. Our finest creations completely dwarf their mundane and humdrum origins.
The late Bill Hicks perpetuated this stubborn myth by asserting that if you're so against drugs, you should destroy your entire album collection. (He was a very funny and insightful man but an incorrigible and deluded hippy right to the end). Most great rock and pop seems to exist in spite of the unheeded warnings of it's legions of ungrateful dead.
Even those substances that kept touring bands and artists upright and awake to meet an insanely heavy workload are at best, tenuously connected to creativity.
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And what about alcohol? Does it count?
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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BrufordFreak
Collaborator
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Joined: January 25 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 7955
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Posted: February 28 2015 at 21:46 |
Progosopher wrote:
BrufordFreak wrote:
Progosopher wrote:
For the sake of simplicity I voted 'Other' instead of clicking on all the options because each and every one contributed. These are not the only roots, however, and many good suggestions have been mentioned already. I reject the notion that there is one cause, one beginning moment, one point where Prog or anything else became what it is. There are always multiple causes, not the least of which are certain conditions that promote such developments. In the case of Prog, both an openness to experimentation and training in music were aspects with wide-ranging results. Given the existence of rock, classical, jazz, and an openness to mixing musical styles, something like Prog would almost be an eventuality. To get away from references to Delta Blues or ancient musics, a clear definition of 'Prog' would be in order, but that is the most difficult thing to define on this site. Mostly, I think, because people try to limit it to a single concise definition when it is too broad for that in much the same way people insist on a single cause for something. This is not to say we cannot identify the characteristics of something specific because we most certainly can. |
Great response with which I whole-heartedly agree. My above analogy of prog as a tapestry is not unfounded. |
A good analogy indeed. Note that the final result relies on an illusion - where you look so closely as to identify the individual threads you have completely missed the picture itself. The threads are essential of course, as atoms are essential but we cannot say that the threads and atoms are the same as the things they make up. The whole has its own characteristics independent of the mere sum of its parts. So too is the case with Prog. It is the elements combined in a certain way that makes Prog what it is. Note that many of these same elements also create Blues, Country, Jazz, Classical, etc. In the original Cosmos series, Carl Sagan showed a large glass beaker containing 150 pounds of water. Next to it was smaller glass beaker containing a few pounds of charcoal briquettes. Next was a small vial of trace elements. These represented the approximate amounts of these substances in the human body. He then mixed them all together, stirring up a gross sludgey gray mess in the large beaker. Then he asked, "Now, why don't I have a human being?" |
And . . . ? What was Carl's answer? (or yours, for that matter)
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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BrufordFreak
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 25 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 7955
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Posted: February 28 2015 at 22:04 |
cstack3 wrote:
I voted "other." The progressive music movement was a moment of artistic inspiration, much like the rise of the Romanticism poetry movement in England. There are many similarities, including rebellion against the establishment, collaboration and admiration among the artists, use of drugs, etc.
The late Peter Banks discusses many of these in this quite wonderful interview:
I don't feel that technology played a particularly key role in the rise of prog, as all of the primary instruments (guitar, bass, drum, Hammond organ etc.) were pre-existing. Even Mellotron and synthesizer had been used in a variety of ways, although these came to their full usage in progressive music.
I'd argue that the way that the musical techniques were employed (using a plectrum with round-wound strings on a Rickenbacker bass, such as Squire and others did) were very innovative and helped to shape progressive music's sound. Otherwise, I don't see technology playing a big role.
Very cool! I, too, had thought of the similarities between "progressive rock" and the British Romantic poetry/literature period. And I do like to think that the 'movement' would have occured despite the rapid explosion of electronic-related technologies.
One or more contributors to this thread have pointed out the rise of the availability of album length pressings (wax/vinyl) for pop music, but, if I'm not mistaken, jazz and pop albums had been available and presented to the public since . . . the 40s??? I have albums that were supposedly printed in the 50s--many of them, in fact. Sinatra, Monk, Peterson, Ellington, Bernstien, Szell, Rubenstien, Gershwin, Presley, Clooney, Cline, Williams, Doo-wop, Berry, Crosby, Como, Dion. Weren't these artists releasing albums throughout the 50s?
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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twosteves
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2007
Location: NYC/Rhinebeck
Status: Offline
Points: 4070
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Posted: February 28 2015 at 22:31 |
Other---people grew up in countries where all kinds of music was heard and appreciated --unlike the USA. And after the Beatles and other 60's experimental music---all things were possible.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26151
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Posted: March 01 2015 at 03:04 |
BrufordFreak wrote:
richardh wrote:
Drugs , Counter Culture , New Tech and Zappa! |
But where did Zappa get the ideas? |
The same place that many got their's from ie Jazz and classical music. How can you narrow this down? I mentioned Zappa because Keith Emerson said in a recent interview that he was very important so that's good enough for me 
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: March 01 2015 at 04:07 |
BrufordFreak wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
I've always felt that the beneficial influence afforded to drugs on any creative endeavor to be completely spurious. The idea that if someone like Syd Barrett, the Beatles, Pete Townshend, Stones, Ray Davies etc hadn't been chipped off their tits, they wouldn't have been able to fashion such innovative and unprecedented music is putting the cart before the horse. Judging by most of the aforementioned's testimonies to the creative process, these classic songs are arrived at when sitting on a bus/train/fence, reading a book, waking up in the morning, having a piss/dump, staring into the middle distance, night/day-dreaming, walking the dog or hearing/seeing a simple phrase. Our finest creations completely dwarf their mundane and humdrum origins.
The late Bill Hicks perpetuated this stubborn myth by asserting that if you're so against drugs, you should destroy your entire album collection. (He was a very funny and insightful man but an incorrigible and deluded hippy right to the end). Most great rock and pop seems to exist in spite of the unheeded warnings of it's legions of ungrateful dead.
Even those substances that kept touring bands and artists upright and awake to meet an insanely heavy workload are at best, tenuously connected to creativity.
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And what about alcohol? Does it count?
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I've never heard anyone describe booze as 'consciousness expanding' have you?
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Komandant Shamal
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2015
Location: Yugoslavia
Status: Offline
Points: 954
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Posted: March 01 2015 at 04:57 |
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Là, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10837
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Posted: March 01 2015 at 07:31 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
I've never heard anyone describe booze as 'consciousness expanding' have you?
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Apart from the Ancient Celts, especially the Gauls? Not a lot of people!
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
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Posted: March 01 2015 at 07:36 |
CPicard wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
I've never heard anyone describe booze as 'consciousness expanding' have you?
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Apart from the Ancient Celts, especially the Gauls? Not a lot of people!
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hah... amateurs... it can.. if you let it. 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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BrufordFreak
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 25 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 7955
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Posted: March 01 2015 at 09:19 |
twosteves wrote:
Other---people grew up in countries where all kinds of music was heard and appreciated --unlike the USA.And after the Beatles and other 60's experimental music---all things were possible. |
I was waiting for this one. I'm really curious as to what people outside the anglo-world have to say. More, please!
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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BrufordFreak
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 25 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 7955
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Posted: March 01 2015 at 09:26 |
richardh wrote:
BrufordFreak wrote:
richardh wrote:
Drugs , Counter Culture , New Tech and Zappa! |
But where did Zappa get the ideas? |
The same place that many got their's from ie Jazz and classical music. How can you narrow this down? I mentioned Zappa because Keith Emerson said in a recent interview that he was very important so that's good enough for me |
I know The Mothers' 1966 debut release, Freak Out! was a 'breakout' moment with its double album (which was, with Dylan's Blonde on Blonde, a first in rock music) and 'concept' orientations (shared with The Beach Boys' Pet Sounds).
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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BrufordFreak
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 25 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 7955
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Posted: March 01 2015 at 09:29 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
BrufordFreak wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
I've always felt that the beneficial influence afforded to drugs on any creative endeavor to be completely spurious. The idea that if someone like Syd Barrett, the Beatles, Pete Townshend, Stones, Ray Davies etc hadn't been chipped off their tits, they wouldn't have been able to fashion such innovative and unprecedented music is putting the cart before the horse. Judging by most of the aforementioned's testimonies to the creative process, these classic songs are arrived at when sitting on a bus/train/fence, reading a book, waking up in the morning, having a piss/dump, staring into the middle distance, night/day-dreaming, walking the dog or hearing/seeing a simple phrase. Our finest creations completely dwarf their mundane and humdrum origins.
The late Bill Hicks perpetuated this stubborn myth by asserting that if you're so against drugs, you should destroy your entire album collection. (He was a very funny and insightful man but an incorrigible and deluded hippy right to the end). Most great rock and pop seems to exist in spite of the unheeded warnings of it's legions of ungrateful dead.
Even those substances that kept touring bands and artists upright and awake to meet an insanely heavy workload are at best, tenuously connected to creativity.
|
And what about alcohol? Does it count?
|
I've never heard anyone describe booze as 'consciousness expanding' have you?
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No. But it's effects are mind altering. (The removal of inhibitions.)
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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Progosopher
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
Status: Offline
Points: 6393
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Posted: March 01 2015 at 20:08 |
BrufordFreak wrote:
Progosopher wrote:
BrufordFreak wrote:
Progosopher wrote:
For the sake of simplicity I voted 'Other' instead of clicking on all the options because each and every one contributed. These are not the only roots, however, and many good suggestions have been mentioned already. I reject the notion that there is one cause, one beginning moment, one point where Prog or anything else became what it is. There are always multiple causes, not the least of which are certain conditions that promote such developments. In the case of Prog, both an openness to experimentation and training in music were aspects with wide-ranging results. Given the existence of rock, classical, jazz, and an openness to mixing musical styles, something like Prog would almost be an eventuality. To get away from references to Delta Blues or ancient musics, a clear definition of 'Prog' would be in order, but that is the most difficult thing to define on this site. Mostly, I think, because people try to limit it to a single concise definition when it is too broad for that in much the same way people insist on a single cause for something. This is not to say we cannot identify the characteristics of something specific because we most certainly can. |
Great response with which I whole-heartedly agree. My above analogy of prog as a tapestry is not unfounded. |
A good analogy indeed. Note that the final result relies on an illusion - where you look so closely as to identify the individual threads you have completely missed the picture itself. The threads are essential of course, as atoms are essential but we cannot say that the threads and atoms are the same as the things they make up. The whole has its own characteristics independent of the mere sum of its parts. So too is the case with Prog. It is the elements combined in a certain way that makes Prog what it is. Note that many of these same elements also create Blues, Country, Jazz, Classical, etc. In the original Cosmos series, Carl Sagan showed a large glass beaker containing 150 pounds of water. Next to it was smaller glass beaker containing a few pounds of charcoal briquettes. Next was a small vial of trace elements. These represented the approximate amounts of these substances in the human body. He then mixed them all together, stirring up a gross sludgey gray mess in the large beaker. Then he asked, "Now, why don't I have a human being?" |
And . . . ? What was Carl's answer? (or yours, for that matter)
|
Sagan's point was that you need more than just a set of elements to make something real. Those elements need to be in the proper order and organized in a certain way. My point is that we would not have Prog without this unique set of elements, including conditions, coming together at a particular point in time. For example, there were many dimensions to the counter culture movements in the 60s and not all of them added to the mix which became Prog. The equal rights movement, say, which we can call counter culture for it was a protest against mainstream culture in the U.S, did not contribute directly to Prog. The hippy movement, through psychadelia did though. Drugs was part of the equation but not so much on the part of the artists as it was on the part of the fans. Beatniks were part of the equation as well. When I played some Jade Warrior for an older friend of mine, he said it was Beatnik music, and I had to admit he had a point. There are so many interconnected elements here, a classic example of what the Buddhists call emptiness. As Thich Nhat Hanh says, to be empty is to be empty of something. In the Buddhist sense, to call something empty is to say it is full of everything else.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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