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Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20503
Topic: What's the Dope? Drugs and Rock! Posted: March 03 2015 at 10:49
I've read quite a few posts lately on member's perspectives regarding sixties recording artists and their use of Halluciagenic drugs 'to aid' in their creativity.
Little mention is made of the listening audience's state of mind as they listened to these creative works.
I've always felt that the relationship between artist and listener was in someway symbiotic, but I was never completely sure how this was effected.
It seems to me that either the 'enhancements' taken by a sizable part of the listening audience enabled the listener greater pleasure to enjoy these mind altered albums such as Sgt. Pepper's, etc.; or taking these 'enhancements' was the outgrowth of young people looking for ways open their minds to new ideas, concepts and frankly, breaking from with the 'old ways' of the conventional forties and fifties.
However, in the retroactive history that we write for ourselves, it seems as if it was only the artists who willing partook of said 'enhancements', and never us or perhaps just occasionally as some sort of new culture experiment.
So, what's the real story? Was a stoned audience necessary to enjoy the creative works of sixties recording artists?
In other words what's the real dope? (And was Frank Zappa really right all along?)
Joined: March 05 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 2086
Posted: March 03 2015 at 12:34
Through 'enhancements' I think the music creator was able to reach depths of his/her inner self that comes across in a way that I can appreciate in a meditative manner - without drugs - simply by focused listening to the music.
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 12688
Posted: March 03 2015 at 12:55
SteveG wrote:
I've read quite a few posts lately on member's perspectives regarding sixties recording artists and their use of Halluciagenic drugs "to aid" in their creativity.
Little mention is made of the listening audience's state of mind as they listened to these creative works.
I've always felt that the relationship between artist and listener was in someway symbiotic, but I was never completely sure how this was effected.
Ummm...dude, are you gonna eat that piece of pizza?
The music was dependent on where you wanted go, yes? Floyd was a different trip compared to The Moody Blues. Totally different buzz if you're listening to Sabbath as opposed to The Doors. But you understood things from a different perspective. You even "got" what Morrison was mumbling on "Shaman's Blues":
The sweat, look at it Optical promise You'll be dead and in hell Before I'm born Sure thing Brides maid The only solution Isn't it amazing?
How often has one got the "only solution" only to wake up and have forgotten what that was. I've cured the world of hunger and war any number of times.
Edited by The Dark Elf - March 03 2015 at 12:56
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: August 26 2014
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 328
Posted: March 03 2015 at 14:21
I find music itself to be mind-altering and have felt that, at various times, music has opened doors to intense, aware, creative and calming moments I do not believe would have been present without it.. I haven't done a whole lot of drugs in my life but assessing/treating substance use is a part of my work. From hundreds of friends and clients, it seems like anything is *possible*, from enhanced creativity to complete paralysis and writer's/player's block. For every person who swore that a substance helped them, I've met another who cannot write music when under the influence.
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Là, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10837
Posted: March 04 2015 at 02:20
Tom Ozric wrote:
If anyone listened to Magma whilst tripping, I'd say they'd be ready for the men in white coats
One doesn't need dark music to go at the asylum: Syd Barrett's music was rather light (even if a bit twisted), but it didn't prevent him from having huge psychologic problems because of the drugs.
I can listen to Ummagumma and never get the impression that the music derived from experimentation with drugs and particularly LSD. Roger Waters and Ron Geesin were sharing their love for American composers of 20th century Avant-Garde during this period in time. The music on Ummagumma revolves around the concept of focusing on each individual writer, but the album has a flow to it that is a form of experimental Avant-Garde and if you were unaware of each member producing music on their own, the album could be taken simply as an instrumental 20th century experimental Avant Garde style of music...minus a few of the songs. This album and several others released in the late 60's and early 70's have often been pigeon-holed as "drug related" music in the more offensive and insulting manner.
I believe that The Beatles were experimenting with LSD to really create something special. I believe they were sincere about it. Evidently they were smart and knew when to stop, unlike Peter Green and Syd Barrett. I cannot begin to tell you the darkness that will haunt you and hang over you like a black cloud or chase after you like a demon wanting your spirit. This drug can bring you to another world, both light and darkness, and if you don't have the strong will to realize the difference between reality and what is delusional...while you are under the influence of this drug, you could lose your sense of dividing what is important in life and your intelligent drive psychologically to control your own life will be drained. Your identity is stripped to a degree developed strongly from the drug and it is vital to make pre-arrangements of who precisely will be in your company while having the drug experience. That was Brian Jones' problem. He associated with too many people that didn't care about him and wouldn't back him up on any issue in life...and those are the people you want to steer clear of.
"1983, A Merman I Shall Turn To Be" by Jimi Hendrix was a piece that became a household item for LSD trips. I don't need drugs whatsoever to enjoy the timeless beauty of it. I believe it is extremely dangerous to mingle with cults while under the influence ..because as you all know about the Munich incident with Danny Kirwan and Peter Green. That's having your identity stripped in 2 different modes. The first being the drug and the second being the cult program. After Green and Kirwan left Munich..they were mentally ill. Danny Kirwan stuck it out with Fleetwood Mac, recording some very beautiful music...but on the inside he was damaged by the Munich incident and perhaps not even being aware of it in any sense. It's up to the individual and obviously some amazing music has been written while under the influence of LSD.
I am a hundred percent for Frank Zappa's viewpoint on the drug culture and the danger inflicted upon anyone under the influence. As a composer...he understood the importance of keeping drugs away from his band and that drugs and music of complexity do not mix.
Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8085
Posted: March 04 2015 at 14:27
TODDLER wrote:
I am a hundred percent for Frank Zappa's viewpoint on the drug culture and the danger inflicted upon anyone under the influence. As a composer...he understood the importance of keeping drugs away from his band and that drugs and music of complexity do not mix.
Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
Status: Offline
Points: 166178
Posted: March 04 2015 at 20:03
If you need drugs to appreciate music: A) you don't really like music and B) that music is probably pretty bad.
Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 12688
Posted: March 04 2015 at 20:10
Man With Hat wrote:
If you need drugs to appreciate music: A) you don't really like music and B) that music is probably pretty bad.
Had you been born 30-35 years previously, you may have a different perspective. In fact, your A and B conclusions do not reflect an entirely different era.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15916
Posted: March 04 2015 at 23:26
SteveG wrote:
Thanks for the great responses. But what about the listening audience of the times. Did they need to be mind altered in order 'to get' the music?
I recall reading somewhere that bassist Neil Murray, left National Health as he got tired of playing to 'stoned' audiences that just 'sat there' wowing over the music, and actually thought that replacement John Greaves would better fit into the band's 'hippie' lifestyle - he ended up joining Whitesnake......
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: March 05 2015 at 10:03
No one ever accused drugheads of being thoughtful, considerate or concerned for anyone other than themselves. Most of them could listen to a flushing toilet and think there having a mind blowing sonic experience. As a non-stoned audience member amid a sea of stoned, pissed and otherwise preoccupied gig attendees over the past 40 plus years I couldn't give a flying fart over what enlightened awareness and enhanced appreciation they did or did not get from the experience, on many occasions I just wished they'd fnck off and do it elsewhere, and preferable before the chose to vomit everywhere. I'll make the same disparaging judgement towards any musician who believes that my listening pleasure is in anyway improved by watching them fumble and stagger around on stage in some drug-addled stupor.
Joined: January 11 2012
Location: Columbus&NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 3167
Posted: March 05 2015 at 10:53
As one who has dabbled in more things than I am willing to publicly admit and hung out with every type of druggie you could imagine, I will say that substances can allow less open-minded people to accept more outlandish and creative music.
Personally I have always loved weird music. I don't need substances to enjoy it. I don't need substances to make it. I can choose to or choose not to. Personally I don't know what Dean is talking about because I don't really go to big shows where there are tons of people. Most of the shows I see are around 15-40 people in attendance.
I have actually met more people that get surprised that an individual like me would do substances because of the way I carry myself. I don't buy into any of these stupid substance subcultures. I don't buy into any ideas about "mind expanding" bullsh*t. Idiots that take drugs don't get smarter. You've never really known purgatory until you've tripped with a bunch of people you have nothing in common with. A bunch of people that think everything is so damn special and they can't wrap their head aroud the simplest of concepts without blowing their minds.
Once I was with a group and they all got so amazed that a train went by on the tracks that we were walking past. They all believed we were "supposed" to be there, and I had explain that the substance they were on opens passageways in the brain that create mental connections between events. Those people usually can't see past their drug-addled minds and realize how things effect them.
I am 27 so I don't have any knowledge of the past, but I will say that I know plenty of people who would have never given most music a chance if they weren't on drugs. I've never been able to convince one sober person to enjoy Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso, Cardiacs, or Sleepytime Gorilla Museum that wasn't already into weird music. Some people don't love music as much as we all love music.
"If you need drugs to appreciate music you don't like music that much anyway and the music is probably bad." Well yea, most people don't REALLY love music. Have you heard the music that most people listen to? "OMG MUSIC IS TOTALLY MY LIFE. LEIK WOW." Almost everyone says this. Especially this new self-important self-promoting internet generation that I'm a part of. Very few people actually live music as part of their life. They just want to put that public perception out because it is one of the easiest ways to create an aura of "deep thought" around themselves. And druggies are just as guilty, maybe even moreso of this bullsh*t.
Yes, we can blame them, or judge them, or whatever (though isn't that just a way of putting ourselves above others mentally? And that sh*t isn't really right either... even though I'm definitely guilty of that.) But in the end, I would much prefer that as many individuals as possible grow to love the strange and ever-changing world of avant-rock and RIO and weird prog influenced music. No matter how they acheive this.
And don't get me wrong. Most dumbass people that take drugs never grow to love good music. I'm just saying that it is much easier for people that are more closed-minded musically to accept the weird music when they aren't sober, and as long as they aren't personally in my way, who am I to care what they do? It's their life.
On the topic of drug-addled musicians I would agree that you can acheive more not on drugs. You can play better not on drugs, no matter what any idiot says. You can also make even weirder crazy music completely sober. I just think about my friend Lucas and his sober music. He is totally sober, Jehova's Witness, and he makes the MOST insane music of any of my friends.
But, if someone is able to put on a good show and it doesn't hinder their performance, who cares. They can do whatever they want.
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