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Dean 
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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 Posted: March 21 2015 at 13:26 |
 moshkito wrote:
Hi,
I'm not sure that you can differentiate the situation in Santa Barbara and the FM stations in the late 60's and early 70's, at least in how I see and know it, from your experience at the BBC, one of the most controlled environments ever, that even Spike Milligan had many issues with that are documented. At least in how it relates to a lot of Southern California, although I might exclude KMET and KLOS in this mold (Roger Waters and Jim Ladd), because they were big, but not representative of what we talk about. They probably WERE the first BIG corporate stations that helped kill the FM stations that helped bring all this to the front!
THERE WAS A FREEDOM, that allowed, as Guy mentioned on another post, likely 90% of all the material we list WAS played, and you could only do that if that freedom was allowed, and it was!
Trust me, when I say, as a listener, that since I left Santa Barbara in 1982, I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER found anything that came anywhere near what Guy did, which was ... for your thoughts and many of the folks here ... totally insane and outside the realms of possibility since no one here can imagine it. |
Once again you interpret what you think I wrote and not precisely what I wrote.
moshkito wrote:
Please, if you can, and you already commented once something rather impolite about it all, re-check the thread on SPR, that despite a slipup between Paul and I (we went to SBCC at the same time!), what most folks remember and share about the show, is not your conventional radio show, or something like many of the other radio shows that everyone knows, and is used to listening to. |
No, I am pretty sure I never have.
moshkito wrote:
Now to get on "thread" with this ... yes, it could happen today, but I think that we need someone that is not afraid of being pisted on (intentionally mispelled!) by an audience that is somewhat afraid to hear things they do not know, do not understand, and does not always have lyrics to explain it to them in Cliff Notes style!
And now ... time for more music more music more music more music ... |
This kind of condescending comment from you never fails to piss me off by its patronising tone. No matter how often you repeat drivel like this I will always respond in the same way by telling you to stop belittling and underestimating people.
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Guy Guden
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2014
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 2498
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Posted: March 21 2015 at 13:29 |
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However, the example remains - Your freedom wasn't unbridled - you had your audience and you knew what they would tolerate and how far you could go before they turned off. You could get away with playing one Captain and Toenail track on my birthday but not a whole program of MOR top-40 hits week-in after week-out. People tuned into your programme to hear the kind of freaky music that you played and not to listen to two hours of MOR. |
With all respect Dean, unbridled freedom is exactly what we did have. Remember this is 1974 through 1980 (when SPACE PIRATE RADIO was first taken off the air for a month or so and reinstated by public pressure). I never knew my audience toleration level. It was the audience trying to figure out me, while I was doing the same, figuring out how far and where I wanted to go with it. We were freaks, for a freaky audience. If you hated what you heard, you tuned out and came back later when Loggins & Messina was played or Phoebe Snow or Pat Matheny by a different jock. It was the freedom that made the station attractive. Believe me, I put some of the audience through Hell (Brainticket, White Noise, Magma and me going off on sonic extremes) but for others it was Heaven (Ash Ra Tempel, Popol Vuh, Mike Oldfield and things that others found funny). We did the shows to please ourselves first and introduce things to our audience. This honesty was felt by the listeners and was the secret of our success. The record companies came to us to find out what we were playing. Many an import band got a U.S. record deal because of us. There was a time, all too brief, when freeform creativity and commercial success went hand in hand. When greed and commerce and control won out and people played things they hated, but they didn't want to leave radio, I followed other roads. For me, 1968 till 2002 wasn't a bad run.
Edited by Guy Guden - March 21 2015 at 13:32
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 21 2015 at 13:47 |
 Okay - I'll give up trying to explain myself.
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What?
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Guy Guden
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2014
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 2498
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Posted: March 21 2015 at 14:04 |
Dean wrote:
Okay - I'll give up trying to explain myself. |
Do you have another one of those Dean?  My post doesn't mean to be critical. Only to explain the unique position I found myself in. Cheers. 
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 12654
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Posted: March 21 2015 at 15:40 |
Guy Guden wrote:
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However, the example remains - Your freedom wasn't unbridled - you had your audience and you knew what they would tolerate and how far you could go before they turned off. You could get away with playing one Captain and Toenail track on my birthday but not a whole program of MOR top-40 hits week-in after week-out. People tuned into your programme to hear the kind of freaky music that you played and not to listen to two hours of MOR. |
With all respect Dean, unbridled freedom is exactly what we did have. Remember this is 1974 through 1980 (when SPACE PIRATE RADIO was first taken off the air for a month or so and reinstated by public pressure). I never knew my audience toleration level. It was the audience trying to figure out me, while I was doing the same, figuring out how far and where I wanted to go with it. We were freaks, for a freaky audience. If you hated what you heard, you tuned out and came back later when Loggins & Messina was played or Phoebe Snow or Pat Matheny by a different jock. It was the freedom that made the station attractive. Believe me, I put some of the audience through Hell (Brainticket, White Noise, Magma and me going off on sonic extremes) but for others it was Heaven (Ash Ra Tempel, Popol Vuh, Mike Oldfield and things that others found funny). We did the shows to please ourselves first and introduce things to our audience. This honesty was felt by the listeners and was the secret of our success. The record companies came to us to find out what we were playing. Many an import band got a U.S. record deal because of us. There was a time, all too brief, when freeform creativity and commercial success went hand in hand. When greed and commerce and control won out and people played things they hated, but they didn't want to leave radio, I followed other roads. For me, 1968 till 2002 wasn't a bad run.
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Guy, the radio freedom you refer to was not necessarily exclusive to Cali (although it seems you had an extravagantly longer period of production). WABX in Detroit was, I recall warmly, one of the true progenitors of free-form rock stations, beginning in 1967. They played John Lennon's 1971 Freedom Rally in Ann Arbor live so that the jailed John Sinclair could hear it. Man, so many great albums played in their entirety, or imports unknown in the U.S. We also had WWWW (W4) called "Quadzilla" because they played in quad for a few years (I remember hearing Tull's Aqualung on a Marantz quad stereo -- sublime for the time!). The "Headphones Only" shows at night featured everyone from Tangerine Dream to Jean Michael Jarre to Aphrodite's Child to good old Floyd. There was also CJOM in Windsor (just over the Bridge in Canada), and to a lesser extent WRIF (the only one of these still in existence, but much transformed since). Irreplaceable gems of anything but corporate rock. Alas, it was over circa 1975 when everything in Detroit became formatted and predictable, and the change was felt and opined, like in this Sept. 3, 1975 piece from the Ann Arbor Sun: They don't make 'em like that no more. We saw it leave and knew it was gone forever.
Edited by The Dark Elf - March 21 2015 at 15:44
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: March 22 2015 at 10:22 |
Dean wrote:
This kind of condescending comment from you never fails to piss me off by its patronising tone. No matter how often you repeat drivel like this I will always respond in the same way by telling you to stop belittling and underestimating people. |
Like you are not doing the same thing and using the same mirror! I know what I saw, and you continually deny my seeing ... and that's wrong!
The Dark Elf wrote:
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They don't make 'em like that no more. We saw it leave and knew it was gone forever.
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Nice ... it's always encouraging to read and hear about this. We KNOW, this existed, otherwise all these bands would not have been selling, and Genesis (for example) would not have been such a huge import album seller, or Nektar, before they were released in America. But finding it, and hearing it, was another ball game.
But I have to tell you what a thrill it is, to have tears in your eyes, 40 years later when your friend's show gets the appreciation that it deserves. It was not always fun and games, in the early days, but the music was way better than anything else that happened -- and that made the trip worthwhile.
Edited by moshkito - March 22 2015 at 10:34
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 22 2015 at 11:27 |
moshkito wrote:
Dean wrote:
This kind of condescending comment from you never fails to piss me off by its patronising tone. No matter how often you repeat drivel like this I will always respond in the same way by telling you to stop belittling and underestimating people. |
Like you are not doing the same thing and using the same mirror! I know what I saw, and you continually deny my seeing ... and that's wrong!
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What odd mirrors you must have.
I never underestimate the ability of anyone to appreciate good art, I never make ill-informed generalisations about people, neither in general nor specifically towards folk here. People are here on this forum because they have a broader outlook on music than you seem to manage to give them (or anyone) credit for. No matter how many times you have been corrected and regardless of the number of times you have been told - people here far more open minded than you believe them to be. You repeat the same tiresome mantras in every post, you criticise, you deride and you belittle, and frankly, I've had enough. So yes, I will talk down to you - you have earnt the honour to be treated as you treat others. [You even had the bare-faced temerity to play the "race card" and that is something I will never, ever forgive].
I found your comment: "..an audience that is somewhat afraid to hear things they do not know, do not understand, and does not always have lyrics to explain it to them in Cliff Notes style!" to be a crass generalisation that insults practically everyone. Yes I will deny you see this: You never saw this - you imagine it because it fits your preconceptions, and that's elitism of the worse kind... and that is what I call wrong.
Now if we are quite finished here, there are more important things to whine about.
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What?
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: March 22 2015 at 11:39 |
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Dean is not doing the same thing as Pedro. Pedro.....when you type out your posts repeat to yourself...other people have experiences also......try not to use the word "We".....you are not a spokesman for Prog Archives.
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Guy Guden
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2014
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 2498
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Posted: March 22 2015 at 14:50 |
Thank you Dark Elf for the post. I was born in Detroit, so if I hadn't left with my parents in 1956 (!) perhaps if my interests had been the same, I would have tried to work for them. We were lucky in SoCal to have FM freeform start out of the college stations (KPPC Pasadena) and the Pacifica Network (KPFK) playing the far out stuff to compete with the AM'ers KHJ, KFWB and KRLA. Then commercial FM blossomed out of San Francisco with KSAN and LA's KMET. In Orange County, my exile, KTBT-FM happened in Garden Grove and was a stoner's TOP 40 freeform, which meant the jocks all had fake hip names like J. William Weed, Charlie Hookah, Bobby Pinn, played the long Doors, Creedence and Steppenwolf cuts but had commercials unlike public and college stations. This was 1967-68. It was on this station that I had my first on-air gig. I told the program director I was English, effected my best '60s Chelsea accent and did a show called BRITISH UNDERGROUND where it was all UK imports, with those extra Kinks, Yardbirds and Who cuts and the best English artists. This was May 1968 and was the forerunner of SPACE PIRATE RADIO which I created in 1973 and pitched to the newly formed freeform FM KTYD (and AM simulcast) in November of that year. The station began the format that September. The show was given the green light for go and made its debut on January 27th, 1974. As Dean mentioned earlier, the broadcast waves of FM differ from AM and signal reception can suffer for this. However, in California at least, the selling of FM was the STEREO sound. Spinning the dial from mono signal to mono and then Zap! that stereo sound on your Sansui receiver. An audiophile's dream. Stereo FM was originally designed here for Classical stations first, then Jazz. When Rockers got ahold of it, we were energized. AM was passé. Thanks for your post and time. Cheers!  |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: March 22 2015 at 15:45 |
Dean wrote:
...
I found your comment: "..an audience that is somewhat afraid to hear things they do not know, do not understand, and does not always have lyrics to explain it to them in Cliff Notes style!" to be a crass generalisation that insults practically everyone. Yes I will deny you see this: You never saw this - you imagine it because it fits your preconceptions, and that's elitism of the worse kind... and that is what I call wrong.
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IF you don't do this, why would it upset you?
Because you fancy yourself the spokesperson for the opposite camp?
Btw ... the man who last did that, ended up getting himself crucified!
Edited by moshkito - March 22 2015 at 15:54
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 22 2015 at 16:08 |
moshkito wrote:
Dean wrote:
...
I found your comment: "..<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 18px">an audience that is somewhat afraid to hear things they do not know, do not understand, and does not always have lyrics to explain it to them in Cliff Notes style!</SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 1.4">" to be a crass generalisation that insults practically everyone. Yes I will deny you see this: You never saw this - you imagine it because it fits your preconceptions, and that's elitism of the worse kind... and that is what I call wrong.</SPAN>
<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 1.4">...
</SPAN> |
IF you don't do this, why would it upset you?
Because you fancy yourself the spokesperson for the opposite camp?
Btw ... the man who last did that, ended up getting himself crucified! |
Injustice is worth standing up against regardless of how little it affects me directly. I speak for no one except myself, I would never presume to speak for anyone else, nor would I ever put words in someone's mouth or second-guess someone's thoughts. We all have the perpensity to pre-judge and I am not immune from that, but I try to avoid it as much as I can. My dad was a carpenter but there the similarity ends. Now, are we done here, I've some new music to write.
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 12654
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Posted: March 22 2015 at 19:59 |
Dean wrote:
moshkito wrote:
Dean wrote:
...I found your comment: "an audience that is somewhat afraid to hear things they do not know, do not understand, and does not always have lyrics to explain it to them in Cliff Notes style" to be a crass generalisation that insults practically everyone. Yes I will deny you see this: You never saw this - you imagine it because it fits your preconceptions, and that's elitism of the worse kind... and that is what I call wrong. |
IF you don't do this, why would it upset you?
Because you fancy yourself the spokesperson for the opposite camp? Btw ... the man who last did that, ended up getting himself crucified! |
Injustice is worth standing up against regardless of how little it affects me directly.
I speak for no one except myself, I would never presume to speak for anyone else, nor would I ever put words in someone's mouth or second-guess someone's thoughts. We all have the perpensity to pre-judge and I am not immune from that, but I try to avoid it as much as I can.
My dad was a carpenter but there the similarity ends.
Now, are we done here, I've some new music to write. |
Dean got it right, and his irritation is shared. He's not the spokesman, as others have made clear your posting behaviors are beyond the pale and so repetitive in the manner with which you continue to insult the intelligence of the posters on PA, that one wonders if there is a syndrome called "Tourette's While Internet Typing" (or simply, TWIT). Your posts share two common denominators: 1) according to you, no one here has any idea what good music is or how to properly listen to music in general, and 2) your pathological need to make yourself seem superior to others here. That is the impression you give in your posts. Repeatedly. Actually, we might coin two words to describe you: Pedrocious (Pay-dro-shus) -- a particularly insulting ramble generally revolving around how PA members only like "songs" and "hits". Moshticity (Mosh-ti-si-tee) -- The amount of pedrociousness in any given day on PA.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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silverpot
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: March 19 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 841
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Posted: March 23 2015 at 14:00 |
^
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: May 02 2008
Location: Going Bananas
Status: Offline
Points: 23993
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Posted: April 05 2015 at 01:09 |
moshkito wrote:
Dean wrote:
...
I found your comment: "..an audience that is somewhat afraid to hear things they do not know, do not understand, and does not always have lyrics to explain it to them in Cliff Notes style!" to be a crass generalisation that insults practically everyone. Yes I will deny you see this: You never saw this - you imagine it because it fits your preconceptions, and that's elitism of the worse kind... and that is what I call wrong.
...
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IF you don't do this, why would it upset you?
Because you fancy yourself the spokesperson for the opposite camp?
Btw ... the man who last did that, ended up getting himself crucified! |
He did not end up, He has risen. Cheers   !
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 05 2015 at 03:44 |
Toaster Mantis wrote:
My point is that with the people I know my own age, the Velvet Underground aren't just cult artists but in fact more important than the Beatles.
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 05 2015 at 03:48 |
timothy leary wrote:
Dean is not doing the same thing as Pedro. Pedro.....when you type out your posts repeat to yourself...other people have experiences also......try not to use the word "We".....you are not a spokesman for Prog Archives. |
Dean is my favorite grumpy here on PA  I like him very much!  Hugs to you, Timothy Leary
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 5898
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Posted: April 05 2015 at 06:29 |
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Man, this forum is strange. I started this very thread and I'm still at a loss to comprehend exactly what happened with it over the last two pages. I'll get back at commenting after I've read it another couple times.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: April 05 2015 at 11:10 |
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It's an unkind thing to say, but I wonder sometimes if people are just getting old and weary in here. Not much fun and games in the forum, most of the 'friendly banter' is gone and arguments seem to quickly spiral out of control. Seen it too many times in other forums/groups to be surprised, though.
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 05 2015 at 11:23 |
rogerthat wrote:
It's an unkind thing to say, but I wonder sometimes if people are just getting old and weary in here. Not much fun and games in the forum, most of the 'friendly banter' is gone and arguments seem to quickly spiral out of control. Seen it too many times in other forums/groups to be surprised, though. |
yes I rogerthat too, it's almost come to mayday Awww pun with utmost respect meant
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 05 2015 at 11:31 |
HolyMoly wrote:
Toaster Mantis wrote:
It would be interesting to see the sales figures, by the way, to see if for example Can and Neu!'s sales spiked when The Fall and Sonic Youth mentioned them as inspiration sources. For that matter, it would not surprise me if they actually were more popular with younger generations than their own. (as was the case with 13th Floor Elevators, The Stooges and The Velvet Underground)
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On a related note, I distinctly remember the Carpenters suddenly jumping from the status of "losers" to "hip" and even "visionary" within days after David Byrne publicly professed his love for their music. I totally think namedropping of that sort has a huge effect on public opinion. Nobody seems to even remember that virtually everyone used to agree that the Carpenters sucked. That's how thorough the brainwashing was. (edit: come to think of it, Kim Gordon of Sonic Youth beat Byrne to the punch with her song "Tunic (Song for Karen)" a couple of years prior. But that seemed more of a sensitive portrait of the tragic character of Karen Carpenter than a de facto endorsement of her music).
Back to topic though - I've made 2 attempts so far to write a thoughtful response to your topic, but so far have not been able to piece together my ideas in quite the way I want to. Plus, this pesky job of mine keeps interfering. Maybe I'll be able to pull it all together later. Good question though, interesting ideas.
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Holy Moly I found you yay!!!! I was searching for you but could not find your posts on "what are you listening to right now? I scrolled back to so many pages! I am happy to see you here now. A massive big hug to you,
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