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SteveG View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 11:37
^That's true, but I feel that the more successful  bands were in it for the money, and I have some personal history with a BOC producer, and they used the whole occult thing as just an image and a way to write  and present interesting songs. And Buck Dharma is as far from an occult lover as you can get.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 12:28


In 1970, intelligent kids would question Black Sabbath's "The Wizard". They would react ..."Okay, I've read many books on wizards" and the lyrics in this song are kind of plain and simple, lacking the essence of surreal art. Other people were obsessed with the lyrics , not thinking of them as shabby and wanted to have a role playing game with those lyrics which made them feel very good...as if they were part of something that had a  supernatural connection and for their very small agenda. Then a few years later, more kids were interested in a role play or adapting the song personally to themselves than questioning it and the Metal community grew to be large and powerful. Metal music had the power to lure in the youth and I even think of that process as hypnotic rather than compacting people and claiming that it is totally up to the individual who hears the music, likes it, buys it, and sets the example of living the perfectly normal life. To understand an artist, you cannot allow their work to overshadow your thinking process. You must occasionally back off and allow your own thoughts to resurface, no matter how lured in you are by their music. Obviously..not many people were thinking for themselves...because Metal was quite the opposite with it's style of album covers, lyricism, subject matter, and driving "Speed Metal" volume. It created a personality and a mentality that was quite different than Spinal Tap, (although they had the hair), as there wasn't an abundance of pathetic humor ..unless it was sadistic in nature. It definitely had a huge impact on the youth of the 80's and 90's and the Metal bands were presented through the news media as the ideal candidates of corruption to the minds and mentalities OF the youth and there was no doubt the government got involved ...which was sometimes laughable
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 12:31
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^That's true, but I feel that the more successful  bands were in it for the money, and I have some personal history with a BOC producer, and they used the whole occult thing as just an image and a way to write  and present interesting songs. And Buck Dharma is as far from an occult lover as you can get.
 

One hundred percent true.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 13:35
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:


We could argue that metal heads are less discriminating that proggers.  Wink  Our expectations are higher and thus are more difficult to please.  To me, much of contemporary metal sounds the same no matter how awesome the chops may be or how fast they are played (and speed does not equal quality).  But I think the previous responders have some good observations.  Metal tends to be more image conscious than Prog, at least these days, and that leads to greater recognition and promotion.  Overall, too, the target audience is younger and thus less experienced and more prone to promotion.  Prog artists tend to let the music speak for them, which is less effective.  When I was a teenager in the 70s one of the things that attracted me to Kiss was their image, so that when I listen to them, I visualized their outlandish outfits and makeup in my mind.  It made the music sound better.  I know better than that now, but many contemporary artists, including metal bands, learned from that.  Much of the music biz is, and always has been, promoting an image.  Some Prog artists may be more image conscious than others, but the emphasis is more on the music.  Maybe if more were more image conscious they would be more well known.


Less discriminating than proggers whose expectations are higher?... I doubt it: it's forgetting that a lot of prog fans tend to obsess over 70's classics or Neo-Prog, and that the metal scene is split up between many subgenres.
Furthermore, the generation gap can play a great role: the older generation of metalheads can't care or even bear bands like Slipknot... A band whose image is quite important! Some people don't like bands which are too much "image conscious"!
I remember having talked with the manager of French industrial band Treponem Pal who explained she was somewhat disinterested into modern metal because she felt that there was an annoying dominance of death metal nowadays.


Wel said. Mr. Card. right on the money.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 17:46
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Because popularity is a disease and prog is an effective vaccine...and metal is an STD.

Remember that there is no light without dark. Some day when everyone catches up to prog there will be prog squared :) 

If metal is an STD i'm gonna spread it like wildfire Pig
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2015 at 00:42
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal

Sorry.  Had to get that off my chest.  Carry on.
You cute one Big smile maybe the cause might be us, the so called prog fans who are too critical to see beyond anything good, especially the great contributions new bands are bringing to us. Instead of being happy we tend to undermine them and this is wrong. xxx Hug 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2015 at 01:53
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh,  for God's sake! Do members here really believe that the occult vibe of groups like Sabbath, Blue Oyster Cult and crazy old Ozzy is anything more than a way to sell albums?
Perhaps it's because the recording industry is now a shadow of it's  former self that causes some members to forget the real agenda behind the veil of Satanism and the occult: Business! Business! Business!
 
(And business!)


Black Sabbath were just doing it for fun, but starting with my countrymen Mercyful Fate and onwards there have been plenty of metal artists who genuinely follow occult religions. This is a photo of MF frontman King Diamond with the late Anton LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan:


I can come with several other examples, to start with a lot of the Swedish black metal scene (Arckanum, Dissection, Watain) are informed by and practice Gnostic religion on which Arckanum's frontman Johan "Shamaatae" Lahger is something of a major academic authority here in Europe.

If I am not mistaken, Dio himself took Satanism pretty seriously or at least did a pretty good job of pretending to.  It may have been part of the reason for the frequent bouts of discords between him and the rest of Sabbath.  

Re metal and punk, I am not sure if that was really a correction to psych/prog, but yes, it seems fair to say it was a reaction to it. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2015 at 01:59
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

I'd say that really, really depends on what you mean by "prog" and "metal". A lot of traditional heavy metal isn't particularly inaccessible to many mainstream rock fans if you can get over a less blues-based more "neoclassical" and lyrics that work more through fantastic metaphor than real life emotions, same situation as those progressive rock groups that get played on classic rock radio though. I wouldn't really call Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden or Metallica less or more accessible than Genesis, Pink Floyd, Rush etc.

The more extreme subgenres I'd call more inaccessible in theory. Not just the harsh vocals, extremely abstract and musical grammar very different from "normal" music but also that the compositional structures can get even more complex and hard to follow. Then again the same thing applies to the most complex Captain Beefheart and Frank Zappa records... as well as avant-prog like Art Zoyd, Henry Cow and Univers Zero. Maybe the latter are more accessible on account of not featuring growled and screamed vocals, but then again what's "accessible" is in large part determined by cultural norms and personal comfort zones. Things that in turn vary with time and place.

I mean, the earlier death metal groups like Entombed and Morbid Angel weren't that far removed from the mainstream-accepted speed/thrash of their day. Hell, Slayer and early Sepultura basically have one foot in each.

idk, when I was into metal in a big way, I knew people who didn't per se have much patience with complex music of any kind but loved extreme metal.  In extreme metal, the complexity or inaccessibility is more of a by product.  The intended purpose of harsh vocals, crushing riffs and really fast drumming is more to convey aggression.  Metalheads love how aggressive the music is.  This is why those who like 'real metal' often mock power metal because it is seen as too happy sounding and lacking the aggression or, to use the appropriate metal terminology, brutality that is an essential component of metal.  Prog doesn't have any one particular hook that way to draw in listeners.  That is simultaneously its strength and weakness.  It demands a lot of patience and perseverance from the listener (who has to be a really intrepid sort to begin with) to start loving prog.  But on the flipside, it is less boxed in and more open to possibilities.  In theory.  In practice, of course, nostalgic yearning for things that sound like "made in the 1970s" seems to have swept all over prog in recent years.


Edited by rogerthat - March 28 2015 at 01:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2015 at 06:23
Nostalgic yearning for the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s have swept all over metal too from 2011 onwards. The metal subculture seems to have around then swung away from more extreme and challenging music towards more traditional accessible styles. Half as a result of a counter-reaction against how hard the subculture was trying to think outside the box in the 2000s but also as a result of the genre's re-mainstreaming drawing in a lot of people who are way more normal in their cultural sensibility... coincidentally those decades were also the last time the genre had as much mainstream crossover as it does now!

Last year I've noticed it go back in the opposite direction again, however, after Morbus Chron's Sweven came out even the more conservative parts of the metal community seem to have become more open to outside-the-box thinking in music as a result of that album. Not only have other "new oldschool" death metal groups like Execration and Horrendous gone in a more progressive direction afterwards, but I've also seen people give Gridlink and Thantifaxath a chance who wouldn't have done so before.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2015 at 10:12
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh,  for God's sake! Do members here really believe that the occult vibe of groups like Sabbath, Blue Oyster Cult and crazy old Ozzy is anything more than a way to sell albums?
Perhaps it's because the recording industry is now a shadow of it's  former self that causes some members to forget the real agenda behind the veil of Satanism and the occult: Business! Business! Business!
 
(And business!)


Black Sabbath were just doing it for fun, but starting with my countrymen Mercyful Fate and onwards there have been plenty of metal artists who genuinely follow occult religions. This is a photo of MF frontman King Diamond with the late Anton LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan:


I can come with several other examples, to start with a lot of the Swedish black metal scene (Arckanum, Dissection, Watain) are informed by and practice Gnostic religion on which Arckanum's frontman Johan "Shamaatae" Lahger is something of a major academic authority here in Europe.

If I am not mistaken, Dio himself took Satanism pretty seriously or at least did a pretty good job of pretending to.  It may have been part of the reason for the frequent bouts of discords between him and the rest of Sabbath.  

Re metal and punk, I am not sure if that was really a correction to psych/prog, but yes, it seems fair to say it was a reaction to it. 
I'm sorry Roger but you are mistaken. My professional back ground is in metal music and the many artists big and small that fit into that genre. I usually veer away from this subject because it inevitably requires name dropping which would be both irresponsible and unprofessional on my part.
As Ronnie James Dio is no longer with us, I can tell you from personal experience that he was one of the warmest individuals that I've ever that the pleasure of meeting in the entire metal genre, and created lyrics that were centered on fantasy "dragons and demons" motifs while in Rainbow before having to come up with darker material when he joined Sabbath. He was no fan of Satan as far as I know and his "devil's horns" hand gesture was simply based on an old world Italian curse or symbol that represented something he did not believe in called the "malocchio" or the evil eye in English.
 
Again, Dio was all about fan entertainment. Not Satan or the occult.   


Edited by SteveG - March 28 2015 at 10:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2015 at 13:02
Most of the 1970s metal bands, for that matter also Venom and Slayer, meant the Satanic themes for entertainment or at best for metaphor. I think Mercyful Fate then started taking occult spirituality seriously which is where the 1990s black/death metal picked it up from. (Arckanum, Deicide, Dissection, Mayhem, Morbid Angel etc.)

MF might have been the exception rather than the rule back in the 1980s, but it's different now and artists who take esoteric/occult/pagan/Satanic religion very seriously are an integral part of the metal world's cultural landscape. However misguided you might find that entire kettle of fish. (hey, at least it's not Nazi Occultism...)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2015 at 15:05
I think Tapfret's ideas are spot on eventually audiences must progress and then they find Prog
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2015 at 06:39
People still want me to post the link to that article about Satanism and the occult's relations to crime when I find it? I think that at this point, it's so off-topic it probably just deserves its own thread perhaps in the general discussion board instead...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2015 at 09:43
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Because popularity is a disease and prog is an effective vaccine...and metal is an STD.

Remember that there is no light without dark. Some day when everyone catches up to prog there will be prog squared :) 
...
 
Only in a planet going around a star/sun! Or equivalent.
 
In space, there is no "light" per se, and you only see the flicker of the distance stars or galaxies, if that in some places.
 
So, the whole "light" thing is almost a complete illusion for the mind, which creates a dichotomy that is not necessary! But you definitely would know "light" if you had been travelling through the dark for a long time, I'm sure!
 
BTW, a blind friend we had used to joke about how we were so clumsy, and he used to black-wire telephones!


Edited by moshkito - March 29 2015 at 09:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2015 at 09:52
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal

Sorry.  Had to get that off my chest.  Carry on.

You cute one Big smile maybe the cause might be us, the so called prog fans who are too critical to see beyond anything good, especially the great contributions new bands are bringing to us. Instead of being happy we tend to undermine them and this is wrong. xxx Hug 


I'm pretty sure Pat was referring to the misspelled thread title (which I've just corrected)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2015 at 20:54
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

People still want me to post the link to that article about Satanism and the occult's relations to crime when I find it? I think that at this point, it's so off-topic it probably just deserves its own thread perhaps in the general discussion board instead...

It definitely does as a point of interest.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2015 at 01:19
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal

Sorry.  Had to get that off my chest.  Carry on.
lol you naughty puppy!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2015 at 01:25
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal

Sorry.  Had to get that off my chest.  Carry on.

You cute one Big smile maybe the cause might be us, the so called prog fans who are too critical to see beyond anything good, especially the great contributions new bands are bringing to us. Instead of being happy we tend to undermine them and this is wrong. xxx Hug 


I'm pretty sure Pat was referring to the misspelled thread title (which I've just corrected)
Nothing is true till the fat lady sings, ok Big smile ok now pls bring back Heston Blumenthal, that pic of him wearing a tiny pink bikini top while barbecuing..... jajaja yep ahum oui da si sim Big smile that pic is priceless! LOL hugs Hug
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2015 at 01:31
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Most of the 1970s metal bands, for that matter also Venom and Slayer, meant the Satanic themes for entertainment or at best for metaphor. I think Mercyful Fate then started taking occult spirituality seriously which is where the 1990s black/death metal picked it up from. (Arckanum, Deicide, Dissection, Mayhem, Morbid Angel etc.)

MF might have been the exception rather than the rule back in the 1980s, but it's different now and artists who take esoteric/occult/pagan/Satanic religion very seriously are an integral part of the metal world's cultural landscape. However misguided you might find that entire kettle of fish. (hey, at least it's not Nazi Occultism...)
I am indifferent about all cult things, to me it's a just a gimmick just as Comic-on. Stern Smile Hey whatever you are into it's cool by me as long as it does not bully or physically hurt anyone.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2015 at 08:50
Originally posted by WeepingElf WeepingElf wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Because "metal" is product which can be shifted to the gullible, whilst "prog" involves much more listener input. 

Heavy Metal is sh*te. No other word for it. 


There are a lot of metalheads that enjoy listening to a lot of prog so... Plus as someone stated, there is metal that is quite complex.

I don't know what metal you've heard but sh*t it is not; I dislike some of metal's subgenres (but then again I dislike some prog ones as well) but calling it like you've just done is just unfair. Saying something like "I dislike it" would be one thing, calling it "sh*te" is another.

Of all the people I know that listen to some metal, none of them is gulible. LOL



Seconded.  Davesax1965 just regurgitates common prejudices against metal.  I doubt that he ever took the time to listen to a good assortment of metal albums.  Sure, some kinds of metal are as ugly as an oil spill and full of questionable ideology, but there is plenty of metal that is pretty deep and complex.  "Progressive metal" is far from an oxymoron, and many people are into both prog and metal.


Ladies and gentlemen, I am a 49 year old musician. I have listened to God knows how many thousand albums. I have been around since "heavy rock" became "heavy metal", and that was simply because heavy rock musicians who weren't good enough to make it realised that adding a pantomimetic touch of drama pulled crowds in. They were going to see the spectacle and not the music or musicianship. 

I have heard tons of heavy metal albums, from some of the first stuff to the later c r a p which was issued under the NWOBHM bandwaggon and unlike some of the people posting here, I understand it from a musical point of view. A great deal - 95% of heavy metal - relies on a boring adherence to repetitive arpeggios and simplistic chord progressions which have little bearing to proper music or musicianship.

Hence sh*te. 

I am not regurgitating anything and it seems a bit off to turn around and say - with no evidence pro or con - to say that I haven't listened to any. I have sat through a lot of badly played, tedious marketing exercises designed to entertain the gullible and remove them of their money - at the lowest possible level. So I'll say it again. Heavy metal is sh*te. Anyone who listens to it needs to (a) get a haircut (b) get a life and (c) learn to think for themselves. Take your spandex trousers, copies of Kerrang, Metal Hammer and all your Myofist, Budgie, Twisted Sister albums and put them on a lovely big bonfire. Then sit back, listen to some REAL music and actually think, listen and become a real human being instead of a cardboard cutout. 



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