Would Prog benefit from better music education? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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TODDLER

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Posted: March 25 2015 at 13:20

The Dark Elf wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

The Dark Elf wrote:

Gerinski wrote:

My question is, do you think if kids in public school received more music education this could help Prog getting more popular? For sure, it's not needed to have any music education to enjoy Prog, but perhaps having it can help seeking qualities in music which can be satisfied by Prog better than by most mainstream Pop music? If you get your son / daughter to have some music education, will he/she be more prone to appreciating Prog?

No, music education does not equal prog appreciation. I don't think the educational aspect and prog appreciation come in sequential order or one as an outgrowth of the other, particularly since the majority of U.S. public school music education relies on classical, march or jazz. My daughter is a flautist in her high school's wind ensemble (they also have a very good jazz band), and there is neither anything they play that would lead them to prog rock, nor does my daughter's musical taste currently lead me to believe she has any interest in the genre; in fact, she jokingly tells her friends when they are over, "Don't mind my dad, he's listening to his prog."

This is insane! You mean to say that your daughter's connection to classical, march or jazz doesn't raise her interest in Progressive Rock that you may have played around the house? This is a killer example you've given, but perhaps she personally doesn't have an interest for some reason and isn't phased by King Crimson's Lizard having a march or Genesis having a Classical influence. Obviously I have a daughter who is quite the opposite and quite alarmed by your post as now I have much to think about. Your post gives me awareness to the real world and how everyone is an individual. This is an interesting observation and thanks for posting it. A good worthy read.

She is 14 years old. Isn't there a natural revulsion at that age for what dad listens to? None of her friends listen to prog. Her friends might not even be sure what the word means. If you look at the music she gleaned from my collection on her iPod, there is relatively little of anything proggish in nature. She has the Beatles, she really likes the Newfoundland band Great Big Sea, she has many of my classical recordings, some Doors, some Pogues, some Pink Floyd (she has absconded with all of my Floyd concert T-shirts), some Van Morrison.

I have a huge collection of Blues music that she has no interest in either. It is what it is. She is her own person. Her musical tastes will expand and change as she gets older. Hell, at 14 I was listening to mainly Alice Cooper, Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep and Deep Purple. Bang your head!

TODDLER wrote:

Did you ever play a kind of grand flute solo by Ian Anderson for her or do you think it's just the style of music in general that she dislikes? And do you believe that her disinterest or dislike for the style of music prevails over her attention/appreciation for the quality flute solos?

She is of the opinion that Ian was a sloppy flute player with breathing problems.

My daughter heard "In The Region Of The Summer Stars" recently and said .."Wouldn't it be interesting if more people liked this music?" She's 14 and requests Prog , but is embarrassed to let her friends know.

TODDLER

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Posted: March 25 2015 at 13:25

Dean wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

[QUOTE=Dean] Ermm

my daughter also played the ~~flaut~~ flute at school and doesn't care for Prog either. She used to sing along to Nightwish and Withering Temptation a lot thou'. (Very loudly I might add).

Did you ever play a kind of grand flute solo by Ian Anderson for her or do you think it's just the style of music in general that she dislikes? And do you believe that her disinterest or dislike for the style of music prevails over her attention/appreciation for the quality flute solos?

Obviously she heard flute played in many forms and styles. Prog simply does not appeal to her in the same way that Jazz does not appeal to me.

[/QUOTE

Sounds like you have a great understanding and fine communication level with her.

Daniele Spadavecchia View Drop Down

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Posted: March 26 2015 at 23:20

It has been demonstrated that learning to play an instrument at a young age helps develop important skills and a special mindset that increases the chances of success later in life.

As a musician also, I have often received appreciation and support from this kind of people, as they have a more developed musical sensitivity and a hungrier appetite.

In general, I noticed they tend to gravitate toward classical music and jazz as they are considered by many the erudite culture.

I don't think that specific musical education brings people to prog rock, but definitely people with intellectual curiosity, engineers, computer programmers, archeologists and similarly minded are very prone to liking it, as they are intrigued by its complexity.

On the other hand, originally prog rock was a social and cultural phenomenon that was very powerful around the end of the '60s, '70s and started to fade in the '80s.

I remember at that time, it was totally normal to listen to this type of music in the lefty circles in Italy. Those who listened to pop were considered corrupt and commercialized!

I know it well as I grew up surrounded by such people. For example, I used to accompany my dad to the radio program he was running once a week talking about local sport and he would play tons of prog rock! My mum would clean the house every Sunday and play entire LPs from Genesis, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Banco, PFM, Orme!!!

As it was fading in the 80's I noticed that only more intellectual listeners kept loving prog rock and many of them came from heavy metal. For example, I had a lot of friends who loved Iron Maiden and then discovered Jethro Tull.

Edited by Daniele Spadavecchia - March 26 2015 at 23:24

Bigseal

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Posted: March 27 2015 at 08:30

Prog will benefit from better music education with the Internet today. That's a lot of help if you are not at music college. You can study Sonata form etc. on the Internet form and structure is what it is all about.

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moshkito

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Posted: March 27 2015 at 08:36

Originally posted by Daniele Spadavecchia

Daniele Spadavecchia wrote:

...

On the other hand, originally prog rock was a social and cultural phenomenon that was very powerful around the end of the '60s, '70s and started to fade in the '80s.

I remember at that time, it was totally normal to listen to this type of music in the lefty circles in Italy. Those who listened to pop were considered corrupt and commercialized!

...

Thank you.

The main concern I have is that sometimes, too many of these are treated like another hit song, and I'm not sure that everyone here can understand the difference. Doesn't make "Hey Joe" any less important, or more important, but what creates the work is not a vapid and (generally) commercial idea that is represented with a top ten concept and idea.

Edited by moshkito - March 27 2015 at 08:37

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Daniele Spadavecchia View Drop Down

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Posted: March 27 2015 at 10:59

I totally agree with you moshkito.

Since you mentioned "Hey Joe", I remember reading about Hendrix's frustration in dealing with a certain part of his audience who kept asking for his early hits like "Foxie Lady", when he was instead bringing in new song materials and exploring new sonic possibilities.

I see prog rock as a musical culmination of the cultural movements of the 60's that grew into maturity into the 70's. Music was about liberation from any form of coercion and standardization, just the opposite of commercial hits. The culture included the free use of classical music, liberated from the grip of traditionalism of its perpetrators, the rediscovery of popular European culture and its deep Celtic roots mainly in the Middle Ages, African like blues, and also jazz in its most experimental form.

That's what we used to call Rock! Not the 70's top 40 like many commercial radio stations broadcast today.

Daniele Spadavecchia View Drop Down

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Posted: March 27 2015 at 11:09

Also consider another element to understand.

Prog rock was created by young musicians who came from art schools and music conservatories who received a classical education and of course having this kind of music knowledge (be it from university or the internet) can help understand part of its structure and aesthetics.

Let's not make the mistake to only reducing it to that part, though. The biggest driving force behind it was a social phenomenon determining the way musicians decided to use the knowledge they acquired in order to deliver a message that was relevant to their contemporaries, and a very powerful one that happens to appear very rarely in human history, probably once every century.

Edited by Daniele Spadavecchia - March 27 2015 at 11:09

Upbeat Tango Monday View Drop Down

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Posted: April 12 2015 at 10:13

No, because music will become a State-controlled soulless machine. You mustn't force people into doing things you like as an individual. Learn how to play good music and do it because you want to, but extensive musical training shouldn't be mandatory for everyone. Hell, NOTHING should be mandatory! Everything becomes a chore if you are coerced into doing it.

It's the same case when people claim for extensive religious education, biased political content, or military training in public schools. Hey, teacher (and society), leave the kids alone! Tongue

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Posted: April 12 2015 at 10:48

Daniele Spadavecchia wrote:

Those who listened to pop were considered corrupt and commercialized!

Hey look I started out listening to pop but I got better in the late '70's LOL

Originally posted by Upbeat Tango Monday

Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:

Hell, NOTHING should be mandatory! Everything becomes a chore if you are coerced into doing it.

Wouldn't that make nothing being mandatory be mandatory??? Confused

Edited by Slartibartfast - April 12 2015 at 10:51

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Gerinski

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Posted: April 13 2015 at 05:16

Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:

No, because music will become a State-controlled soulless machine. You mustn't force people into doing things you like as an individual. Learn how to play good music and do it because you want to, but extensive musical training shouldn't be mandatory for everyone. Hell, NOTHING should be mandatory! Everything becomes a chore if you are coerced into doing it.

It's the same case when people claim for extensive religious education, biased political content, or military training in public schools. Hey, teacher (and society), leave the kids alone! Tongue

We teach our children how to read and write, we teach them math, physics, chemistry, history, literature, graphical representation, social subjects... All these make them better educated persons and will help them understand and judge better everything they will encounter in life. I don't see why music education would be any harm.

Would you not teach anything mandatory to your children? Would you leave them alone to learn everything by themselves in the jungle of the human society? Confused

Religion is different, as it is trying to force certain beliefs which are completely arbitrary.

Dean

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Posted: April 13 2015 at 05:25

Gerinski wrote:

It's the same case when people claim for extensive religious education, biased political content, or military training in public schools. Hey, teacher (and society), leave the kids alone! Tongue

Would you not teach anything mandatory to your children? Would you leave them alone to learn everything by themselves in the jungle of the human society? Confused

Religion is different, as it is trying to force certain beliefs which are completely arbitrary.

I would also add that how will children know if they are interested in pursuing to a higher level if they've not had at least some rudimentary education in the subject.

Religion is a different issue - perhaps the world would benefit from better education of religion (rather than in religion) - unfortunately that kind of religious education does not benefit intolerant 'believers' so will always be opposed.

What?

Gerinski

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Posted: April 13 2015 at 08:57

^ Indeed, we must understand the difference between education and coercion. You may get education in art or architecture and this does not mean that anybody will try to force you to like more some style or school over another. In the same way getting music education does not mean anybody trying to coerce you into liking this or the other.

Most religious education is different in that it mostly tries to coerce the pupil into believing the faith in question. Education about religions in general should not be any more harmful than most other social subjects.

Dean

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Posted: April 13 2015 at 09:06

Anyway... who wouldn't want to inflict the music created by a class of 30 kids playing descant recorders on every music teacher? Evil Smile

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Angelo

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Posted: April 17 2015 at 04:48

Gerinski wrote:

Would you not teach anything mandatory to your children? Would you leave them alone to learn everything by themselves in the jungle of the human society? Confused

Religion is different, as it is trying to force certain beliefs which are completely arbitrary.

We teach our children to read and write, and all that others stuff. Yet the more I see of how we do that, the more I get the feeling we stuff it down their throats without thinking. Every individual has his or her own order in which things become interesting and useful, and the will to learn in them in that order. Our educational system has passed the point where that is taken into account, for the benefit of making education cheap and easy to manage for those providing it, at the same time reducing quality and effectiveness for those who receive it.

Please, let's not make music (or art in general) part of that mess but leave it to the independent music teachers, and encourage our own children to investigate their interest in that area rather than enforcing it.

And more to the point of the original question: yes, prog would benefit from better music education, but that does not imply (on the contrary, from my point of view) it has to be part of the educational system we provide in our schools.

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