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Horizons 
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 20 2011
Location: Somewhere Else
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Points: 16952
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 Posted: March 20 2015 at 16:03 |
You don't have to have everything mapped out and analyzed to enjoy any music.
Edited by Horizons - March 20 2015 at 16:03
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Psychedelic Ensemble
Forum Newbie
Joined: August 02 2010
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 11
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Posted: March 20 2015 at 16:12 |
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Yes
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 20 2015 at 19:58 |
 Gerinski wrote:
Obviously there can never be any direct correlations. Explaining motorcycle technology to your young son does not imply he will become a fan of technically advanced motorcycles, maybe he will become a fan of simple old-fashioned Harleys. That is of course clear. |
..or he may grow to dislike all motorcycles or mechanical engineering in general, or he may pretend to be interested in them to appease his father.
Gerinski wrote:
Yet, I think there can be some probabilistic correlations, even if possibly tenuous. |
Correlation does not imply causation. Irrespective of our age and nationality we all studied pretty much the same subjects in high-school to more or less the same level, yet we are not all erudite polymaths of equal knowledge and similar likes and tastes. Because music education (beyond the basics) in schools is not compulsory it means that children study it because they are interested in music and want to study it - this will result in a higher correlation between music knowledge and appreciation (here I take "appreciation" to mean liking Art Music over Popular Music) ... yet assuming that it was the education that caused the higher appreciation would be presumptuous (and probably wrong).
Gerinski wrote:
Exposure is not musical education in the sense I was referring to in the OP, but it can make for a sort of '2nd tier' kind of education. People with a wide music exposure may be more prone to becoming interested in, perhaps not learning music theory as such, but in understanding some concepts which can help him/her understand the features and differences between all the stuff he/she is hearing. |
I would be very surprised if that was the reason why anyone studied music theory. But there is no reason why that would benefit prog.
Gerinski wrote:
I guess that many people with a lot of education in cinema are not too excited with the big blockbusters, as successful as they may be, and have a bit more elaborated and artistic cinema as their favourite movies. |
Then they would be a pseud.  |
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What?
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 12681
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Posted: March 21 2015 at 11:02 |
Gerinski wrote:
My question is, do you think if kids in public school received more music education this could help Prog getting more popular? For sure, it's not needed to have any music education to enjoy Prog, but perhaps having it can help seeking qualities in music which can be satisfied by Prog better than by most mainstream Pop music? If you get your son / daughter to have some music education, will he/she be more prone to appreciating Prog? |
No, music education does not equal prog appreciation. I don't think the educational aspect and prog appreciation come in sequential order or one as an outgrowth of the other, particularly since the majority of U.S. public school music education relies on classical, march or jazz. My daughter is a flautist in her high school's wind ensemble (they also have a very good jazz band), and there is neither anything they play that would lead them to prog rock, nor does my daughter's musical taste currently lead me to believe she has any interest in the genre; in fact, she jokingly tells her friends when they are over, "Don't mind my dad, he's listening to his prog."
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16148
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Posted: March 21 2015 at 11:09 |
Gerinski wrote:
Yet, I think there can be some probabilistic correlations, even if possibly tenuous. Exposure is not musical education in the sense I was referring to in the OP, but it can make for a sort of '2nd tier' kind of education. People with a wide music exposure may be more prone to becoming interested in, perhaps not learning music theory as such, but in understanding some concepts which can help him/her understand the features and differences between all the stuff he/she is hearing.
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It's only not "musical education" in the sense that I do not have the music lingo to describe it with ... which, unfortunately is one of the worst parts of music teaching and learning ... you take out of the person intuitive side that does not even know what those things are, but can create something ... again, go try and play with a child, and see if you can keep up for 5 minutes ... we, adults, are immediately going to say that is not music!
But the experience was there, and existed, and a lot of the 20th century experimental work was about the "de-construction" of these concepts in music, to help find and identify other details in music ... and still we go saying that it's not valid ... it's like saying you have to be a musicologist to listen to FAUST ... or the first AMON DUUL band ... and you end up missing the experiential side of it all!
My comments, and I can see this, and know this fully, and is the reason why I do not discuss music theory with Dean, do not come from a theoretical study ... mine come from an experiential exercise and life ... but in the end, it's like telling the Krell they are screwed up because they don't know music the way you do.
Education is only good to a point. As long as it is open ended, it is good, but academia has a tendency to close it on their presets and ideas and concepts and that's that ... I will say that some education is good, which to me means ... getting to know Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Stravinsky, Puccini, Verdi ... and a few others, so you can better see how some muci developed over the years ... and ALL that needs is some appreciation, not musical knowledge!!!!!
Edited by moshkito - March 21 2015 at 11:11
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23098
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Posted: March 21 2015 at 15:18 |
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It depends - like almost everything else in music. Some musicians would benefit immensely from getting back to basics - ie learning how to keep time etc etc, while others are best left to their own devices.
Would Jimi have been a better guitarist if he had studied under a classical composer?
Sometimes schooling can be a way for a truly great musician to end up sounding like every other musician out there.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 13355
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Posted: March 21 2015 at 15:18 |
Lear'sFool wrote:
Polymorphia wrote:
I really don't think my music education directly helped me like any music. Although
my guitar teacher did encourage me to explore, which eventually led me
to discover prog.
Lear'sFool wrote:
A very big name in the history of hip hop. For many, his background is surprising. |
There are plenty of people in pop and hip-hop who are no idiots.
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Aye. Never meant to insinuate that. My apologies for accidentally insinuating that. |
They sell, so are not idiots. What about who buys? 
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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com
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LearsFool
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8618
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Posted: March 21 2015 at 15:28 |
octopus-4 wrote:
Lear'sFool wrote:
Polymorphia wrote:
I really don't think my music education directly helped me like any music. Although
my guitar teacher did encourage me to explore, which eventually led me
to discover prog.
Lear'sFool wrote:
A very big name in the history of hip hop. For many, his background is surprising. |
There are plenty of people in pop and hip-hop who are no idiots.
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Aye. Never meant to insinuate that. My apologies for accidentally insinuating that. |
They sell, so are not idiots. What about who buys? |
Depends on whether they're buying the underground stuff, or the pop/glam malarkey. Like choosing between Anubis and Creed.
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 13355
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Posted: March 21 2015 at 15:58 |
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I'm just joking....and I don't dislike Creed too much. Once I have also bought an album, the one with 'My Sacrifice'
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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com
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LearsFool
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8618
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Posted: March 21 2015 at 16:06 |
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^ I'd say they were oh so close to being a nice band.
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Progosopher
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
Status: Offline
Points: 6393
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Posted: March 24 2015 at 12:48 |
Most people approach music as a form of entertainment; What they listen to is simply what entertains them the most. Someone educated in music, even a little bit, will experience any kind of music just a little differently than those who have no education but their listening will still be about what entertains them the most, or perhaps intellectually piques them. What music entertains us is a mix of the music itself and all the visual styles that come along with it such as staging, costumes, videos. Even we proggers have a sense for visual aesthetics. How many of us watched the Superbowl and remember Katy Perry's set? What songs was she singing while the sharks danced and she was propelled into the air? I can ultimately only discuss my own experience, which includes my education. One aspect of my character is my sense of curiosity and wonderment. In my younger years I was content to hear whatever I heard on the radio or television. In the course of time there were certain songs I liked and others I didn't. I never liked dance-pop such as disco or what occupies the top of the charts these days, and I positively hate most of country. I always liked rock, hard rock. In my teens, my holy trinity of music was Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, and Black Sabbath. Note how I had what may be called a natural predilection towards things Prog. In my late teens, my second trumvirate became Yes, Tull, and Hackett. Significantly though, at the same time I also began to appreciate some Classical and Jazz, finding joy Pictures at an Exhibition and The Planets for Classical and Weather Report, Al Di Meola, and Pat Metheny for Jazz. Note again the connections to Prog. During this time I also began studying guitar and took private lessons for a couple of years. I did not learn as much as I could at that time, being rather lazy and feeling inadequate, but I did learn how to listen more consciously. So, what is it about me that enjoys Prog? At the root, it has to be that sense of curiosity and wonderment combined with a sense for appreciating things on their own terms. My music studies enhanced what was already there. To address the question more directly, I think that some education can enhance one's appreciation of Prog and other more sophisticated musical styles, but as Dean insinuated, maybe not. It is personal appreciation, enjoyment, and entertainment. All these things can be cultivated as well, and I think it would be to the benefit of all people, not just proggers, that we are given the opportunity to broaden and deepen our sensibilities. What we do with such opportunities is entirely up to each one of us.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625
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Posted: March 24 2015 at 21:38 |
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Yes and No...
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: March 24 2015 at 22:21 |
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how about maybe
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 25 2015 at 04:22 |
A music teacher friend of mine posted this on FB and I instantly thought of this thread:
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What?
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WeepingElf
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 18 2013
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 373
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Posted: March 25 2015 at 10:43 |
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I once had a young and open-minded music teacher in high school who played a major role in the formation of the musical taste of me and some of my classmates. He played Mussorgsky's Pictures of an Exhibition to us, in four versions - the original piano version, Ravel's orchestration, the ELP album and a version played on synthesizers by Isao Tomita. This was my first prog-rock blast, though at that time, I was into electronic music such as Kraftwerk or Jean Michel Jarre (that was before the techno/house boom went off), and Tomita's version impressed me more. Yet, ELP was on my and my classmates' radar, and we'd later discover more progressive rock - from Yes and King Crimson to Rush and Marillion.
Edited by WeepingElf - March 25 2015 at 10:43
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... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 3126
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Posted: March 25 2015 at 10:58 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Gerinski wrote:
My question is, do you think if kids in public school received more music education this could help Prog getting more popular? For sure, it's not needed to have any music education to enjoy Prog, but perhaps having it can help seeking qualities in music which can be satisfied by Prog better than by most mainstream Pop music? If you get your son / daughter to have some music education, will he/she be more prone to appreciating Prog? |
No, music education does not equal prog appreciation. I don't think the educational aspect and prog appreciation come in sequential order or one as an outgrowth of the other, particularly since the majority of U.S. public school music education relies on classical, march or jazz. My daughter is a flautist in her high school's wind ensemble (they also have a very good jazz band), and there is neither anything they play that would lead them to prog rock, nor does my daughter's musical taste currently lead me to believe she has any interest in the genre; in fact, she jokingly tells her friends when they are over, "Don't mind my dad, he's listening to his prog." |
This is insane! You mean to say that your daughter's connection to classical, march or jazz doesn't raise her interest in Progressive Rock that you may have played around the house? This is a killer example you've given, but perhaps she personally doesn't have an interest for some reason and isn't phased by King Crimson's Lizard having a march or Genesis having a Classical influence. Obviously I have a daughter who is quite the opposite and quite alarmed by your post as now I have much to think about. Your post gives me awareness to the real world and how everyone is an individual. This is an interesting observation and thanks for posting it. A good worthy read.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 25 2015 at 11:03 |
 my daughter also played the flaut flute at school and doesn't care for Prog either. She used to sing along to Nightwish and Withering Temptation a lot thou'. (Very loudly I might add).
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What?
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 3126
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Posted: March 25 2015 at 11:09 |
Dean wrote:
my daughter also played the flaut flute at school and doesn't care for Prog either. She used to sing along to Nightwish and Withering Temptation a lot thou'. (Very loudly I might add). |
Did you ever play a kind of grand flute solo by Ian Anderson for her or do you think it's just the style of music in general that she dislikes? And do you believe that her disinterest or dislike for the style of music prevails over her attention/appreciation for the quality flute solos?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 25 2015 at 11:17 |
TODDLER wrote:
Dean wrote:
my daughter also played the flaut flute at school and doesn't care for Prog either. She used to sing along to Nightwish and Withering Temptation a lot thou'. (Very loudly I might add). |
Did you ever play a kind of grand flute solo by Ian Anderson for her or do you think it's just the style of music in general that she dislikes? And do you believe that her disinterest or dislike for the style of music prevails over her attention/appreciation for the quality flute solos? |
Obviously she heard flute played in many forms and styles. Prog simply does not appeal to her in the same way that Jazz does not appeal to me.
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What?
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 12681
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Posted: March 25 2015 at 11:26 |
TODDLER wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Gerinski wrote:
My question is, do you think if kids in public school received more music education this could help Prog getting more popular? For sure, it's not needed to have any music education to enjoy Prog, but perhaps having it can help seeking qualities in music which can be satisfied by Prog better than by most mainstream Pop music? If you get your son / daughter to have some music education, will he/she be more prone to appreciating Prog? |
No, music education does not equal prog appreciation. I don't think the educational aspect and prog appreciation come in sequential order or one as an outgrowth of the other, particularly since the majority of U.S. public school music education relies on classical, march or jazz. My daughter is a flautist in her high school's wind ensemble (they also have a very good jazz band), and there is neither anything they play that would lead them to prog rock, nor does my daughter's musical taste currently lead me to believe she has any interest in the genre; in fact, she jokingly tells her friends when they are over, "Don't mind my dad, he's listening to his prog." |
This is insane! You mean to say that your daughter's connection to classical, march or jazz doesn't raise her interest in Progressive Rock that you may have played around the house? This is a killer example you've given, but perhaps she personally doesn't have an interest for some reason and isn't phased by King Crimson's Lizard having a march or Genesis having a Classical influence. Obviously I have a daughter who is quite the opposite and quite alarmed by your post as now I have much to think about. Your post gives me awareness to the real world and how everyone is an individual. This is an interesting observation and thanks for posting it. A good worthy read. |
She is 14 years old. Isn't there a natural revulsion at that age for what dad listens to? None of her friends listen to prog. Her friends might not even be sure what the word means. If you look at the music she gleaned from my collection on her iPod, there is relatively little of anything proggish in nature. She has the Beatles, she really likes the Newfoundland band Great Big Sea, she has many of my classical recordings, some Doors, some Pogues, some Pink Floyd (she has absconded with all of my Floyd concert T-shirts), some Van Morrison. I have a huge collection of Blues music that she has no interest in either. It is what it is. She is her own person. Her musical tastes will expand and change as she gets older. Hell, at 14 I was listening to mainly Alice Cooper, Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep and Deep Purple. Bang your head!
TODDLER wrote:
Did you ever play a kind of grand flute solo by Ian Anderson for her or do you think it's just the style of music in general that she dislikes? And do you believe that her disinterest or dislike for the style of music prevails over her attention/appreciation for the quality flute solos? |
She is of the opinion that Ian was a sloppy flute player with breathing problems.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Would Prog benefit from better music education?
