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HackettFan View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2015 at 14:10
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Here's an idea - let's get Bandcamp, Soundcloud, Spotify, YouTube, etc., to actually pay for the production of the music they "support".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2015 at 14:39
There's no obligation for any artist to support like-minded newcomer artists, but if they do it's a very nice thing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2015 at 15:43
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

There's no obligation for any artist to support like-minded newcomer artists, but if they do it's a very nice thing.
 
Pretty much this is it.....If The Tangent (Andy) feels the big 70's groups are not or have not done enough...He just needs to look at his own band because without the Genesis's of the world the Tangent would not exist probably. Genesis and the like, helped all these bands by simply existing and making music. That, I assume, was the inspiration for the Tangent to form and make the music they make now.
 
Now if these newer bands don't feel they are getting their due...well they can blame that on the internet, Youtube, spotify and the loads of other "free music" websites. Essentially same thing Dean mentioned, spot on Clap
 
Will the Tangent ever play to the big arena crowds that Genesis, Yes, Rush....Pink Floyd played to, probably not.....$8-$12 for a concert ticket back then versus $50-$200 today. No promoter will guarantee that kind of money to a band.
 
I am not slamming Tangent at all.....They need to do all they can to make a living, but asking the "prog giants" for more help seems the wrong path. Its just the music world today, specifically prog music.
 
You know maybe they are feeling the pressure to try and keep prog alive, especially since we are on the verge of seeing things like: Genesis will never reunite, Pink Floyd is done, Yes is very close, Rush are gearing down...So from that point I can see the concern.
 
But there are many bands still carrying the torch, or maybe it is a candle now.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2015 at 15:55
There are many modern Prog albums with 70's Prog guests, doesn't that count as support? Ermm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2015 at 15:58
Steve Hackett certainly doesn't shy away from a little cameo work for obscure bands. 

Edited by Guldbamsen - March 31 2015 at 15:59
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2015 at 16:06
True, I'm not much surprised when I see him on album credits now.
The last Ayreon album sure has a lot of guests Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2015 at 16:09
Yeah Arjen is crazy with his guest spots. I gather it's mostly done over the internet though. I can't imagine Phideaux flying in from Canada to do a vocal bitLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2015 at 16:28
Yep, the wonders of internet Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2015 at 01:26
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Who helped the seventies bands? No one really . However ELP signed up PFM and toured with them. Tull toured with Gentle Giant and I'm sure there are other examples. Basically they did enough at the time imo.
Then you have the second generation of prog bands. IQ created their own record company in the 90's and signed Spocks Beard and Threshold. Is that not enough? They are still helping young artists including one of those named in the OP.
 
Basically a lot of modern prog is 'money for old rope' anyway.

The seventies bands were helped out by an overall scene. They were helped by venues and audiences and willing promoters. No, it wasn't effortless, but there was a lot to feed off of. Prog went downhill in the 70s when it lost all it's underground support. I'm much in favor of the sports model; (a) cultivate a farm team so that you always have up and coming talent, (b) cultivate rivalries - it brings out more in you. Should the bands be responsible, I don't know, but if everyone sits on their hands, there won't be much movement.
 
there was no internet then so it could be argued there is more opportunity for exposure now than ever before
 
my feeling will always be (and for all things this holds) that people need to take control of their own lives. As soon as you start looking for others to give you a leg up then you run into problems. Prog does come up against a certain amount of resistance and perhaps the seventies bands have both created a scene and destroyed a scene in equal measure with their lack of responsibility (ie over indulgence) but as others have pointed out it was theirs to break as they made it in the first place. Blaming the guy who climbed Everest for not giving you more vocal support is a bit lame imo
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2015 at 05:23
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

Actually they should support the bands that came after them. King Crimson should tour with more weird unheard of bands. Steve Hackett... pretty much all of them that are still playing now should let unknown bands tour with them.

Because I don't care how much I love a band, I don't wanna see a 3 hour performance. Show me 2 hours with the band I came to see and then an obscure band that they love open for them for a half hour. I would prefer that any day.

In fact, Marillion had Cardiacs open for them back in the day and people booed and stuff. Well... I want more of that. Mars Volta toured with Hella and people booed Hella. Tool toured with Melt-Banana and people booed Melt-Banana.

I really can't respect a band that's SO huge that won't bring an opening band that will draw boos. We need more amazing opening acts for these big touring giants. Sky Architect opening for Rush. Koenjihyakkei opening for King Crimson. Knifeworld opening for Kansas. Help the little guys. Guapo opening for Steven Wilson. I see no reason not to. That's pretty much one of the bigger reasons that I can't respect these "giants" of the industry.

Use your success to create more success. I would never go to a single band tour unless they are obscure and can't use their fame to help others.
As a fan, I'm not a musician, I agree 100%. For example a few years ago, I attended, along with the other 20 000 crowd, at the concert of the greatest ex-Yugoslavian and Serbian prog rock band, when as an opening act played a young and unknown (without any released material except a few youtube clips) instrumental math rock band called Hipnagoga slike ("Hipnagogue Images"), which was well accepted by the audience and promptly became known across the country; though we are a small country, I have no doubt that the same effect can occur in some much larger communities also.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2015 at 05:55
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

Actually they should support the bands that came after them. King Crimson should tour with more weird unheard of bands. Steve Hackett... pretty much all of them that are still playing now should let unknown bands tour with them.

Because I don't care how much I love a band, I don't wanna see a 3 hour performance. Show me 2 hours with the band I came to see and then an obscure band that they love open for them for a half hour. I would prefer that any day.

In fact, Marillion had Cardiacs open for them back in the day and people booed and stuff. Well... I want more of that. Mars Volta toured with Hella and people booed Hella. Tool toured with Melt-Banana and people booed Melt-Banana.

I really can't respect a band that's SO huge that won't bring an opening band that will draw boos. We need more amazing opening acts for these big touring giants. Sky Architect opening for Rush. Koenjihyakkei opening for King Crimson. Knifeworld opening for Kansas. Help the little guys. Guapo opening for Steven Wilson. I see no reason not to. That's pretty much one of the bigger reasons that I can't respect these "giants" of the industry.

Use your success to create more success. I would never go to a single band tour unless they are obscure and can't use their fame to help others.
As a fan, I'm not a musician, I agree 100%. For example a few years ago, I attended, along with the other 20 000 crowd, at the concert of the greatest ex-Yugoslavian and Serbian prog rock band, when as an opening act played a young and unknown (without any released material except a few youtube clips) instrumental math rock band called Hipnagoga slike ("Hipnagogue Images"), which was well accepted by the audience and promptly became known across the country; though we are a small country, I have no doubt that the same effect can occur in some much larger communities also.
Having managed a band for several years that has played support to many "big names" in metal (Paradise Lost, Threshold (twice), Within Temptation (twice), Sonata Arctica (twice), Epica, After Forever, Edenbrige ... to name but a few) and even played double-headliner gigs with DragonForce and Haken early in those bands' careers I can confirm that the practice exists and there are some positive benefits if the matching of the bands on the bill is handled well, (playing to the wrong audience is a waste of time and energy), but it will not propel you to fame and fortune. 

Audiences are fickle and while the band was never booed off stage, they did experience a degree of disinterest from many attendees who where only there to see the headline act. Yet getting on those bills in the first place was far more of a challenge than trying to whip up some excitement in a disinterested crowd. We found that the headline acts themselves have very little say in who else is on the bill, all the power resides in the tour promoters and they want evidence that you can attract extra ticket sales in your own right. Back then, if you were unsigned then they were not interested in booking your band. None of those headline acts requested that our band supported them, each billing was achieved by convincing the promoter that we would bring our own fans to the show, and in some cases that was even "pay to play" in some form or other.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2015 at 10:21

Hi,

It's a tough topic for everyone.

I think that all of us want to see our children succeed, but sometimes, they want to go their way, and all you can say is ... See you later, and hope that you can hug them and appreciate their own growth as time goes by. You still have to love them, regardless, even though at times this might be tough ... and you know mom always helps ... can I do your laundry?

All in all, the biggest names were not quite as much help as one hoped for. I, personally, think that both the Rolling Stones and the Beatles ended up creating an atmosphere that did not go out of the way to help others that much, as far as I can see. When you compare, how many folks Robert Fripp, Eno and Peter Gabriel giving us more attention to world music, I would think that is massive and helpful and it was not exactly boring and the same thing.

But taking Dean's example, at how frustrating it can be to open a show, Babe Ruth did a massively great show at the Whiskey a Go Go, but they were getting boo'd even on their version of King Kong (Zappa) which was excellent, mostly because the audience wanted Iggy Pop, not Babe Ruth! We went because of Babe Ruth! And promptly walked out 15 minutes into Iggy's show. That is not fun, and sometimes scary. Both Nektar and Golden Earring also have a few stories on that subject. And we don't have to mention Soft Machine opening for Jimi Hendrix ... !!! Or Woodstock, that totally ignored and supposedly booed The Incredible String Band! Or the 1999 SF Progressive Music Festival, when the Rocket Scientists put on a very clean and well done and professional show ... and many of the folks just went outside ... ohhh just another metal band from LA. And that was sad ... even our own did this! And they were the best for that day, but never got their deserved recognition!

I do not think, that the commercial world needs help. As Dean observed, the audiences can be fickle and not fun. They are not there for the art in the first place, and the bands in support, can be good/bad/indifferent, but few of them stand out and blow up the place. There are stories that Carmen blew out both Jethro Tull and David Bowie in the same week! And that is rare, but it also means that band has to believe their material to no end ... and play it like the best there is.

And the rest has a way of taking care of itself ... but I know one thing ... I know I tried, and i don't feel bitter I did not "make it", and I know who my "teachers" were and I still respect them.



Edited by moshkito - April 01 2015 at 10:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2015 at 15:06
Remember what David Gilmour replied to Johnny Rotten?
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2015 at 16:00
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Remember what David Gilmour replied to Johnny Rotten?
 
He said: "I thought the Sex Pistols were rather good. I've been on a show with Johnny Rotten - it was at Sadler's Wells - and he said he never really hated Pink Floyd and actually he was a bit of a fan. I confess to not having entirely believed it in the first place. I mean, who could hate us? " LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2015 at 17:40
Here's a bit of of a gut check for everyone when it comes to "Big Names" supporting up and comers. There is a band from Kitchener Ontario called Helix, some of you may know them. They had a minor hit and/or radio play in the early 80's. Their manager was able to get them hooked up to open for Kiss on a European tour. Here's the crux, Kiss demanded that they pay $250,000 to do it. One of the guys told me they were basically living on around $30 week after all their expenses. So what does that tell ya? Personally I've never been a fan of Kiss or Gene Simmons.
Thank you for supporting independently produced music
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2015 at 17:56
Ermm That sounds like a "go away" price to me. Basically it's a fictitiously ridiculous price you quote to someone who is pestering you to make them fu*k off.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2015 at 01:14
I'll give you a tenner DeanTongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2015 at 01:35
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by RoeDent RoeDent wrote:

I was just listening to a radio interview with Andy Tillison, of The Tangent, and he made some very interesting points about how the big prog bands of the 70s don't support the current generation of bands that they inspired.

"Their legacy isn't some digital re-release of their 1973 greatest album, their legacy is us. The Tangent, The Flower Kings and Big Big Train are what Genesis left behind."

It's these bands that are keeping the best Music (with a capital M) alive, and a new generation is starting to come through now, such as Haken and Synesthaesia, that will still be making music in 30 years' time.

What do you think? Could the "stars" of 70s prog do more, or be more vocal, in supporting the future of the genre they laid the foundations for?
Of course they can. For example, the 70s bigs such as Phil Collins or Peter Gabriel could easily set up a foundation to help young Prog talents, as a charity. 

However, the basic problem lies in the fact that the Prog Rock is still considered as just a part of entertainment called rock'n'roll, as a part of show business in which the rules are set long ago, and those rules are strictly and not inclined to help those virtually unknown newcomers "only" because they are  talented young musicians with artistic and proggy but uncommercial ideas; on contrary.

We all know that long ago that our beloved genre already become Art. Now prog artists are perform at jazz festivals; jazz has long been defined as a genre of art music, but progressive rock is still not officially (whatever that means) declared as an Art. Simply put, the progressive rock is yet not strictly separated from "the great rock and roll party".

Until that happens, it will stay to be practically impossible to reach a serious support for young prog talents. For example, covering the studios' costs for talented young prog bands and solo artists, also for CDs and vinyl LPs printing and for a promotional stuff and costs of gigs but also gala events such as some new prog festivals, that should be financed, in order to popularize the art music such as prog-rock among the kids, from the budgets of cities or states; thus unprofitable, but with a huge importance for the culture of that community.

One can say that this is a pointless moaning, but one should take a peek at the figures which clearly show how much money those so-called "conceptual art" projects received from various funds and NGO sector every year.
 
State funded Prog - who the hell would want that? 

 
 
Svetonio would. He's a Trot, and in their peculiar little world, everything should be state funded and owned.

@Lazland 

A man was not created by the ancient astronauts' genetic engineering (or "God" if you prefer that religious version) just to serve another man, man is not created to be anyone's servant, and as long as there is preferential and subordinates and as long as there are those who try to impose themselves as some masters who will manage and dispose of others and who believe that other people should be their servants who will work for their interests, will not be peace, neither social peace nor of any other kind and will come to conflict, war and bloodshed.

Also in neo-liberal capitalism (laissez-faire economic liberalism) is clear that from day to day less and less small group of people is becoming richer while more and more poor and this trend can not last forever either by a single law, I mean both the social law and the law on an esoteric and metaphysical level .
Just such a system is doomed, and there is no doubt that neo-liberal capitalism is going to explode on bloody and brutal end - in fact, exactly how the neo-liberal capitalism was / is during its time of existence.

In the long term perspective, it is only an utopian system like the one that is on the Earth in "Star Trek", where there is not money, is no more class distinctions, where there is no hunger, disease, wars and so on. And where people are there to be learned, studied, playing music, worked on it and where they improved themselves, and where to enlightenment, kindness and knowledge were the only true measure of one's wealth.



Edited by Svetonio - April 02 2015 at 01:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2015 at 01:49
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I'll give you a tenner DeanTongue
Since you haven't quite grasped the principle of what is involved here, I'll take your money. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2015 at 03:53
And even when 70s heros do help, is it appreciated?
 
The Great Man (PH) plus John Ellis supported Marillion in '83 in London. Apparently Mr. Dick was a fan of PH/VdGG.
 
First year of working in London and thrilled to see him live again so off I trotted to Hammy Odeon.. He was booed and slow hand clapped by a bunch of morons who appeared to want a pop/prog-lite Genesis clone band. Not blaming Marillion or Fish per se, and not my view of Marillion either, think they are ok, but their audience at the time had an alarming lack of what...education? knowledge? taste? manners?
 
left at half time in disgust. 
 
Next time I saw PH, solo, at LSE in '84, stunning performance, fully appreciated by a rapt audience.
 
Maybe best to keep ploughing your own furrow....
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