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Polymorphia 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: November 06 2012 Location: here Status: Offline Points: 8856 |
 Posted: April 09 2015 at 14:27 |
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008 Location: Là, sui monti. Status: Offline Points: 10837 |
Posted: April 09 2015 at 14:31 |
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Neither I know the history of southern California radio history, but I would like how it can have an effect on, let's say, European 80's ambient music (especially dark ambient) for example. Or does that it mean that the discussion must focus on Steve Roach, Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Steve Roach, Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Steve Roach, Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Steve Roach, Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze...? |
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Guy Guden
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2014 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 2499 |
Posted: April 09 2015 at 19:15 |
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A decent example of why I hesitated to join PA for so long  For the record, Moshi AKA Pedro speaks for himself, not for me or SPACE PIRATE RADIO, so please be careful in any alignment of views here. I believe Pedro has posted somewhere that he stopped listening to my show in 1979 or early '80s, whenever he left Santa Barbara and headed North. SPACE PIRATE RADIO continued to broadcast, with periodic interruption and sometime relocation of station, till 2002. In this time, my definition of what is "progressive" has included continued experimentation by artists in the fields of electronic music and combinations of sounds and styles. The list of artists past played is truly staggering, always putting an equal spotlight on the newest and most interesting new music, and mixing it with what has preceded it. So an older piece by Edgar Froese could be followed by a newer one by Richard Pinhas and an even newer one by Die Form or Fila Brazillia. I was fortunate to have no less than 4 and a half, to 6 hours to make the trip in varied tempo. When I read the posts of what people are listening to here, I am pleased to see the variety of tastes expressed. This spirit comes closest to what SPACE PIRATE RADIO, in its humble way, tried to do over the years. Cheers!
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 14980 |
Posted: April 09 2015 at 19:22 |
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Hey, Guy, is Space Pirate Radio still going as a webcast/broadcast? What's the link? I listen to Pat Murphy's Alien Air Music out of Loyola Marymount Univ. (KXLU) every weekend. Always looking to check out more EM shows!
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 09 2015 at 19:38 |
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Hmmm... some random thoughts:
I don't distance myself from New Age - being a logical progression of Symphonic Prog Rock, Ambient Electronica, World Music and "ECM" Jazz with more emphasis on mood and ambience, I can listen to it without being burdened with the extra baggage of healing crystals and centring my chakras. Just as long as it doesn't have whale-song (wail-song) or sodding pan-pipes on it I'm happy. Music, after all, is an emotional medium and revolved around emotion long before New Age was even thought of - it's how it moves you that makes it enjoyable to you. Use of ELP for the theme tune to a game show didn't lessen my appreciation of Karn Evil 9 any more than use of Great Gig In The Sky to advertise Nurofen affect my liking for Pink Floyd. That electronic music was used for a soap opera or to advertise Google Chrome and Philadelphia cream-cheese is irrelevant. It strikes me as incongruous that broad-minded folk who dig Progressive Rock can be so dismissive of other music genres because of some non-musical association that it has, be that as soundtrack to something or as a fashion accessory. It's perfectly fine not to like a particular genre of music and the solution is very simple - don't listen to it. I don't like cauliflower so I don't eat cauliflower. For me, Soul Music is like cauliflower - I don't like it so I don't listen to it but I sure as hell won't be dismissive of it. Being able to play an instrument and being able to play as part of an ensemble of other musicians is no guarantee that the music produced is good music - a virtuoso performance on a bad album does not redeem that album. We don't judge albums by how well they are played and, (as counter-intuitive as it sounds), we don't judge them on how well the music is composed either, most listeners (including those who are also musicians themselves) simply don't apply such objective criteria when appreciating a piece of music. Music is fickle and its listeners more so - we can assemble a group of top-notch musicians and give them the score of a (generally accepted) great piece of music and the end result can be disappointing/mediocre/awful [delete as applicable] or it can be great but poorly received or summarily ignored. We listen to the end result and make our assessment of that based on what we hear and what we expected to hear, few would approach a new album by a familiar artist dispassionately and without some preconception and or expectation, and that affects our subjective view. Who is playing on the album can, and does, affect our opinion of the final recording - it shouldn't but it does and there is no escaping from that, we will more often prefer a piece of music played by familiar musicians over the same piece played by unknown sessions musicians. (This cuts both ways of course, we can accept a subjectively lower standard from lesser-known and unknown musicians than we would from artists who had (in the past) presented an exemplary performance or recording for our pleasure. This is not because we are more forgiving, ('cos we ain't), it is because we set higher standards for those who have demonstrated that they can achieve better.) So what then if no one is playing on the album? - this is a fallacy of course, whether plucking a string, pressing a key or moving a mouse the notes do not appear by magic, the composer/musician puts them there by human intervention. Just as Bach blobbed a dots of ink on five lines scrawled across a sheet of paper that magically transformed into the Brandenburg Concerto when placed before an orchestra days, weeks, months, years, decades and centuries later and produced majestic swathes of music, the Midi events and recorded tracks of synthesiser music that get manipulated in ProTools and become transformed into music by a virtual orchestra. One has to ask, what are we listening to here, the music or the performance? Are we listening to Bach, The LSO or Wendy Carlos? [Curiously, a friend of mine who is a classical music buff and a big Bach fan loves Switched On Bach, whereas I, an electronic music fan, find it to be sterile and rather wooden. hey-ho] Electronic Music is one of those mercifully few Popular Music genres that is defined solely by the instruments that are used to create it (erm the other's being Brass Band and Jug Band  ). And I think that's kinda nutty because it leads people into making really bad assumptions and poor associations. Like Metal (which also seems to be getting a hell of a kicking around here for some reason), there is more to EM than Tangerine Dream and Techno Music, but we all know that of course. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 09 2015 at 19:39 |
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And you did not see that my post was intended as humour? How ironic. 
History schmistory. I do know that local FM radio has a limited transmission range. Regardless of transmitter power it is line of sight and thus limited to a range of around 15Km and given that there are mountains to the north and the gungdang Pacific Ocean to the south I'm going to take a wild punt in the dark and guess that not too many folk live in either of those directions, so what does that leave? Less than 100,000 people, most of whom I imagine wouldn't have listened to SPR if you'd paid them, (unless they were ex-pat Brits, they'll listen to anything for money). Therefore I do know it that it could not be heard in northern California, Nevada, the Mid-west, on the East Coast or anywhere else in the world that has the temerity, if not the barefaced audacity, not to be Southern California. I don't need an in depth academic knowledge of southern California radio history to "grok" that, just an ounce of common sense, a smattering of geography and a rudimentary understanding of basic physics. Marsian philosophy... would make more sense than... your perception of... practically... every...thi...n...g... Mr Guden undoubtedly had a huge and lasting impact on those who heard his radio programme and I wouldn't dream of taking that worthy and highly commendable achievement away from him. Yet Europe continued to be here before, during and after, and its musicians continued making great music and the enlightened people living here continued listening to great music blissfully unaware of Space Pirate Radio's existence. Even though the big bang theory suggests that the Universe is expanding in all directions, it does not mean that it's centre is located at the precise location of where you are standing. You know, it's funny (i.e., no, it's not funny at all) how you keep banging on about how the rest of us never look any further than our limited narrow minded existence yet you appear to be locked in this straight-jacket of Santa Barbarian myopic tunnel vision completely unable to comprehend anything anyone else writes, (or obstinately determined to ignore it), because you keep dribbling out the same tiresome and worn-out diatribe post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post ad infinitum (cum cerasi in vertice). So, I will say this one more time. This is a Progressive Rock forum on a Progressive Rock archive website aimed at people who do not listen to top-40 radio and everyone here is smarter than the average bear. This means that all people here can brag about something, so tend to be unimpressed by poseurs and braggarts. Try being a little slower in estimating what they are capable of, that way you'll underestimate them considerably less. This includes the young'uns who have only been listening to this kind of music for a few short (but indubitably fun-packed) years, yet they are wise in the ways of the interwebs grasshopper and have access to untold riches.
1. This conversation is not over just because you say it is, it will be over when you stop posting because I will keep replying to each post you make in this so-called conversation until you grow tired or either one of us dies of old age, for no other reason than it amuses me to do so. 2. For someone who is rude on a regular basis you seem to be pretty good are misdiagnosing it in others. I haven't begun to get rude yet and I honestly hope that I never will because it does so take the edge off a perfectly good wind-up. 3a. I never agree to disagree as a matter of principle. If the person I am in disagreeance with is convinced that I am wrong then they'll still have that conviction after we've arrived at such a worthless and meaningless agreement to disagree. For my own part, if I am disagreeing with someone it is because I believe them to be wrong, and they will continue to be wrong until someone puts them right. I would not be able to sleep at night with that weighing heavily on my conscience...  3b. Hold on, belay that... I've just found a jar of Horlicks in the back of the cupboard... I can sleep easy at night but they would still be wrong in the morning. 3c. We are not disagreeing here and this is not a disagreement. You is having a pissy hissy fit over a humorous though mildly sarcastic reply I made to one of your silly mocking "jokes". I, on the other hand, am grinning from ear to ear like a demented Cheshire cat and will continue to post in this (perhaps now not quite so mild) sarcastic manner because it amuses me to do so. Sarcasm may be the lowest form of humour but it is also cheap mindless entertainment and there is nothing worth watching on TV, fortunately I am in a good mood and high spirits because earlier this evening I bunged some bloke fifty quid to have my latest home-produced EM masterpiece cut onto a vinyl dubplate and now have sod all to do until it arrives on my doorstep.   3d. So even if I should agree to disagree (which, as I said, I wouldn't as a matter of principle), then I can't actually see what it is we are supposed to be disagreeing about. 3e. Not withstanding that there doesn't appear to be a salient point in your post that can be agreed or disagreed upon, I did not for one second believe that you said that music died in 1979 with any measure of seriousness whatsoever, and since you have now confirmed that you was joshing with us all even though I at least lack the wit and intelligence to appreciate your rapier-like humour, it seems that the only person who could possibly disagree with you is, erm... you. 4. Nope. I don't much care for wine unless it's French, and then only for cooking. |
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Guy Guden
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2014 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 2499 |
Posted: April 09 2015 at 19:39 |
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Thank you Verslibre, for asking, but no. The show is not currently broadcast in any form. Past shows from various eras are exchanged among listeners and collectors. If the show returns live on air, I will try to have these options available. Thank you again.
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brainstormer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Status: Offline Points: 887 |
Posted: April 09 2015 at 20:24 |
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Here's an idea, it's pretty common and has been expressed on this site before.
You have a general broad scope of what is accepted as music, and even musical innovation. Some artists come along and follow that and create some innovations. Other artists end up copying that. Fast forward to the present. Where are the likes of Vangelis, Larry Fast, Tomita, Wendy Carlos, and similar in today's modern electronic music? And, then there is a possibility that better artists are not being heard as much because of various factors, such as it's harder to have the "leisure" to build up the skills to become great....and not just keyboard/synth skills, but the skills of reflection, meditation, not something that can be learned at a community college night extension program....
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Robert Pearson Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net |
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The Sloth
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 05 2013 Status: Offline Points: 115 |
Posted: April 09 2015 at 22:59 |
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The time is there for people to use constructively. Technology has persuaded us (easily, of course) to fill our lives with all the best modern "conveniences." It's as easy cancelling your Netflix subscription and staying off the social performance sites. I'd also recommend skipping the electronics and learning a traditional instrument. All the best music has been made on them.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 26108 |
Posted: April 10 2015 at 01:28 |
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I suppose it comes down to whether that talent is there to produce something interesting that is going to stand out. The seventies was a unique decade for both rock and instrumental music due to a combination of talent , innovation in recording and open mindedness to new ideas. All music has suffered to some extent when the wind of change blew through the music industry in the late seventies and EM was not above it anymore than prog.
Changing the subject I've never associated 'New Age' with EM at all. New Age to me was more an extension of what Mike Oldfield started with the likes of Tom Newman, Patrick O'Hearn and Stephen Caudel at the forefront. Vangelis eighties albums such as Soil Festivities and Antartica did feel a bit new agey though and TD did Canyon Dreams and Underwater Sunlight but I never thought that was the core of that particular movement. I've never got on board with the modern forms of EM that are talked about although I might if there was stuff out there that sounded like this
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 10 2015 at 05:56 |
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This is one of those naff lines of argument that achieves little. You don't like EM music then that's fine - the solution is simple: don't bloody listen to it. What you cannot do is dictate to musicians and the people who do like EM music what they should and should not do. Consider a similar but equally naff line of argument: Thirty years ago audio buffs spent a small fortune searching for the perfection of high-fidelity in music reproduction but when the technologists created near-perfection that was affordable and available to the masses they had to come up with some other excuse to justify their hobby. Perfection, it seems, was not the desired goal at all and the actual fidelity reproduction of music was a secondary consideration. The same thing happened in music recording and album production, for years studio engineers strived to achieve perfection in recording because the record buying public were quick to criticise poor production but when technologists presented the tools for achieving near-perfection in sound recording that was affordable and available to all the buying public had to come up with some other excuse to justify their hobby. Perfection, it seems, was not the desired goal at all and the actual fidelity of music production was a secondary consideration. For years musicians practised their instruments to achieve perfection in playing because the music fan was quick to criticise sloppy playing and duff notes, but when technologists presented musicians with tools to achieve near-perfection in note pitch and placement that was affordable and available to all the music fan had to come up with some other excuse to justify their hobby. Perfection, it seems, was not the desired goal at all and the actual fidelity of music performance was a secondary consideration. Now a rationalist (such as myself) can readily see that technology is not at fault here, nor are the Hi-Fi manufacturers, the studio engineers and the musicians, and by the same reasoning neither are the audio-buffs, record buyers and music fans. We cannot (and should not) blame the suppliers for using the tools to provide the consumer with what they all believed to be the desired product and we certainly cannot (and should not) blame the consumer for disliking that final product. Throwing all this out and going back to basics is not the rational answer, (that would be like going back to horse and cart to solve the problems pollution and dwindling oil supplies), the solution is to find out what the consumers actually want (not what believe they want) and to use the tools in an appropriate way to deliver that to the best of the suppliers ability. The tools themselves of course are inanimate and are devoid of blame, only a bad craftsman would blame his tools and to use another well-worn idiom, it's not what you've got it's the way that you use it. The criticism levelled at all three is often one of sterility. We hear words like cold, sterile, mechanical, emotionless, inhuman because perfection is a something that humans are not very good at and we really can have something that is too perfect for our aesthetic appreciation. This is valid criticism and valuable feedback so music creators need to address that at all levels, that's how the economics of it all works. If listeners don't like something then they will not (and should not) listen to it, if the musicians and producers want people to listen to their endeavours then they must pander to those who shout the loudest. This is what commercial music is - tailoring the product to fit the consumer. But what if the musicians don't want to do that? What if the product they make is the one they want to make? So what if the masses don't like it... who is losing out here? The dedicated musician or the casual music-fan? If there are enough fans of EM music to satisfy the musicians who want to make EM music and vice versa then who cares what other people think or say? Not I that's for sure.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 10 2015 at 07:00 |
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I've seen this sort of thing in tennis. When Sampras was winning, spectators moaned about too many aces and craved long rallies. When rallies did get longer, they moaned the death of serve volley and lamented that men's tennis had become like women's tennis. It's another matter that if these ageists really loved serve volley so much, they would throng the doubles matches where it's alive and well! Bottom line, the audience is very poor at defining what it wants because it's so subjective. Musicians should go with their gut and hope their sincerity will speak to listeners.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Posted: April 10 2015 at 07:55 |
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^ Now I've heard it all, electronic musicians and audience compared to tennis players and fans:
long rallies = Prog Rock? serve and volley = Punk? Played on grass? New balls please. |
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brainstormer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Status: Offline Points: 887 |
Posted: April 10 2015 at 15:06 |
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I just wanted to add to my post I think there are many great modern composers.
Just some of the names that come up sometimes in talking about EM seem to me to be continuing too much in the Berlin school or techno dance-based to be personally interesting. I'm not sure how many people are trying to make "far out sounds" these days, that are also pleasant, instead of abrasive. There are many new modern electronic tones floating about, even in Pop and Rap, but it's what done with them that makes a difference to me personally. It's so crucial to not feel the music that's out there and popular today is in any way below oneself. We just like what we do because we like it. |
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Robert Pearson Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net |
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The Sloth
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 05 2013 Status: Offline Points: 115 |
Posted: April 10 2015 at 15:10 |
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The masses don't shout the loudest; they are simply the greatest number of voices, and they're always mumbling for more. The technology of today is cheap enough for everyone to get their hands on, which means everyone can add the metronome as a fifth member, everyone can have the super clean track separation, they can order the machinery to perform the parts the people in the band can't play, and everyone gets a similarly slick professional product in the end. In other words, everyone is falling right into a line, and individual distinction is no longer a valued factor in the game. Technology isn't the problem, but people really make me wish a lot of things were never invented.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 10 2015 at 16:18 |
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You sound like someone who does not make music.
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The Sloth
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 05 2013 Status: Offline Points: 115 |
Posted: April 10 2015 at 17:45 |
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I do make music. In fact, I stopped myself from posting a bigger reply to one of these threads yesterday, because it hit me how often I forget that people listen to music for simple pleasure. I have a huge list of musical do's and don't's. I'm nothing short of a Nazi about it, actually.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 10 2015 at 17:50 |
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Whatever works for you.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 26108 |
Posted: April 11 2015 at 02:28 |
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so Borg is prog and McEnroe is punk? Makes perfect sense to me
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 11 2015 at 02:38 |
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I said nought about either punk or prog and I have no idea why somebody would store an old convo about those genres for so long in his memory that he cannot but somehow find a way to refer back to it in whatever I say. But hey, whatever floats your boat. I am not even going to bother to explain or clarify what I said.
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Do you find yourself distancing yourself from EM?
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verslibre wrote:
indeed.