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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2015 at 23:03
When I joined this place in 2006, it was a bustling hive of aging hawks and overzealous dweebs who were convinced prog rock was our only hope; that the artists were creative messiahs that would save everyone from the slow decay that seemed to plague the music industry.

But if prog is getting bigger, where is everyone?   Sure PA's membership continues to increase, but the intense conversation and activity here has markedly dwindled.   If prog is getting bigger it's not reflected here on the site (the most populace prog site in the world).   Not to mention the falloff of traffic and contributors Fred Trafton has experienced at the GEPR.   The evidence would suggest prog did have a moment of resurgence during the 2010s but that it was not permanent and has fallen off.   Not that it really matters much--  part of the fun and romance of prog in our time is its under-the-radar nature.   Prog is not getting bigger, however it may be holding its own, just as it always has.   It is a survivor, and that's usually better than the alternative.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 01:57
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

When I joined this place in 2006, it was a bustling hive of aging hawks and overzealous dweebs who were convinced prog rock was our only hope; that the artists were creative messiahs that would save everyone from the slow decay that seemed to plague the music industry.

But if prog is getting bigger, where is everyone?   Sure PA's membership continues to increase, but the intense conversation and activity here has markedly dwindled.   If prog is getting bigger it's not reflected here on the site (the most populace prog site in the world) (...)
 
Facebook was in its infancy in 2006 and YouTube, where people now are posting a lot of comments about prog albums (and prog documentaries) and discuss there, was just started (and so many people were back then still use dial-up, had no high speed internet, so were not able to watching the videos at YouTube). Also, many current prog sites, forums and blogs did not exist in 2006.
And if we take into account that the number of visitors at this site at least stayed the same or similar as in 2006, it ridicules the theory read several times here) that this site reflects an evidence that prog is not getting bigger.
If more people just read this forum than writing on the topics, it also is no proof that 2 + 2 is not 4.
Prog is ghettoized now as I already explained but, perhaps paradoxically (maybe not), it is getting bigger without a question.


Edited by Svetonio - May 27 2015 at 02:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 02:33
^ Except that the assertion prog is getting bigger must be shown; in other words, the notion has to be proven, and any standards of growth measurement ~ e.g. sales, buzz, internet conversation, etc ~ are certainly not expanding.   To say that prog is bigger or has more buzz now than, say, five years ago, just doesn't hold water.   You can think it or want it, but the New Wave of Prog came and went.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 02:54
At the risk of derailing the thread by getting into the definition of what is prog , seventies prog was ELP, Yes, Genesis,PFM,VDGG and Tull and the like . A lot of stuff at the time simply was not regarded as prog including even Pink Floyd. By definition its got absolutely massive if you now include Muse and RadioheadSmile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 03:13
^ It has gotten massive but it is no longer getting massive.   And show me an average music listener who thinks of Radiohead as 'Prog'.   Nobody cares about prog rock, they care about Radiohead.  
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 04:07
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

(...)  Nobody cares about prog rock, they care about Radiohead.  
It would be an argument maybe?
How many crowd were actually debated on, for example, the amount of progressivity at e.g. Bursting Out back in the day?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 04:18
Has anyone here looked at things like record and concert ticket sales, live bookings as well as contract signings or formation of new groups? That would be the easiest way to measure these things objectively. I have noticed that more people in heavy metal circles are getting into 1970s prog/psych and modern groups imitating that scene, but that's still a niche audience.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 07:22
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Has anyone here looked at things like record and concert ticket sales, live bookings as well as contract signings or formation of new groups? That would be the easiest way to measure these things objectively. I have noticed that more people in heavy metal circles are getting into 1970s prog/psych and modern groups imitating that scene, but that's still a niche audience.
That huge number of new bands around the globe and who have released magnificent albums in the first half of the 2010s, actually is the only real indicator that our beloved genre is getting bigger now than it was before, in the past decades. That number can not be dismissed just because these young bands do not play at soccer stadiums full of crowd.
And not everywhere and always is the case that prog bands do not have enough crowd at their concerts. Somewhere is more of the crowd at the concerts of prog rock bands, somewhere less. For example in Poland (which is undoubtedly the leading country when it comes to prog rock today) the prog concerts are crowded quite enough and prog festivals are held regularly Smile
 
 
 
 


Edited by Svetonio - May 27 2015 at 09:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 09:20
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

At the risk of derailing the thread by getting into the definition of what is prog , seventies prog was ELP, Yes, Genesis,PFM,VDGG and Tull and the like . A lot of stuff at the time simply was not regarded as prog including even Pink Floyd. By definition its got absolutely massive if you now include Muse and RadioheadSmile
Don't forget also that The Who is prog related now, although The Who, with the exception of a few songs at studio albums, were an antithesis to prog before punk hysteria Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 09:25
I'm kinda with Atavachron......I just don't believe the word "prog" is getting bigger at all. In the music news, it may still be a buzz word when describing for example Rush, sure they are prog and are pretty big right now in the news.
But after bands like that or Yes and some that are still playing live, do you really describe the new bands as prog...in that same sense? I don't think so.

You still cannot walk up to the common music fan and ask them to name a prog band of late, one that is part of this growing mass of bands. If you ask me Metal has grown by leaps and bounds and is everywhere.....

We should be happy that prog seems to be in a flat growth pattern, if not slightly down.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 10:13
Oh yippee. Another thread of unsubstantiated claims, made-up non-numeric statistics and wishful thinking.

All genres of music could make a claim of "getting bigger" when the data chosen to support the hypothesis is selective - whether there are more or fewer bands in any given genre is something that can never be determined because it is a statistic that has never been collated. What we have is greater access to bands that would have otherwise remained known only to a relatively small number of people. We have no way of knowing how many such bands existed before "instant global access" became the norm. We also have no actual verified data on how many of these lesser known bands reach a measurably wider audience or how that compares to historical data. While the audience count could be an indication that a particular genre of music is getting bigger, self-created web-presence is most certainly not. It is one thing to have YouTube, Bandcamp, Soundcloud, Facebook, LastFM accounts but it is quite another to measure that in audience count or album sales. Since the world population is growing and the proportion of that population that has access to music is also growing then audience numbers should be increasing by a similar proportion across all genres of music. To gage then if a particular genre is actually growing (rather than tracking with increased global audience population along with every other genre of music) then audience share relative to other genres needs to be considered as this is a more reliable measure than simply counting audience numbers, but even here the data to support any claims simply isn't available. Prog Rock is getting bigger but then so is every other form of music, including Polynesian Nose Flute music.

One inescapable observation is that any increase in overall volume (of Prog bands) is partly due to the genre becoming broader (rather than deeper) - for example when the bulk of the new suggestions are in the crossover subgenres (Art Rock, Metal, Jazz Rock/Fusion, Prog Folk, Electronic, Avant, Psych, etc.,) which is a logical consequence of the inclusive (née eclectic) nature of Progressive Rock as a music genre, then this could (and probably does) give a false impression that the genre is in growth. That almost twenty years have elapsed since Indie bands like Radiohead and Mansun ventured into the realm of Progressive Rock and still the 'are they/aren't they' arguments persist, which suggests that this debate will continue for many years to come for the newer arrivals into the genre. Sideways expansion of a genre does not necessarily indicate that it is actually getting any bigger, as counter intuitive as that seems, it is merely another area that has insufficient data to make a claim either way. Even to suggest that the genre is getting deeper as well as broader lacks the measured data to support such a notion, but a measure of that at least would go some way towards verifying actual growth over perceived growth.

It is this paucity of actual data that brings us to the current Swiftian state of defiantly sitting in Ivory Towers hurling unprovable 'facts' in support of unknowable claims that are nothing more than assumptions based upon selective perceptions.

How successful is modern success? For example a brief YouTube survey of iamthemoring suggest that they average 51,000 views and 64 comments - compared to The Tea Club's 2000 views and 9 comments but both these pale in comparison to Anathema's 640,000 views and 500 comments. Anathema are not in the "big league" by any means, neither as a Prog Band nor as an Alt Rock band yet they are magnitudes (i.e., multiples of 10 times) more "successful" if these crudely gathered statistics are to be believed. Of course we get another magnitude shift when we then go to that other famously not-Prog Prog band Pink Floyd's latest non-hit single (6,000,000 views and 5000 comments). As Homer once said - you can prove anything with facts.


Edited by Dean - May 27 2015 at 10:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 11:37
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ It has gotten massive but it is no longer getting massive.   And show me an average music listener who thinks of Radiohead as 'Prog'.   Nobody cares about prog rock, they care about Radiohead.  
I think that was RichardH's point. Show me someone (besides Dean) who thought that Pink Floyd was Prog back in the day. I happily include them as such today, but that's not what I called it back then. I would have just said that I like mainly Progressive Rock, some Blues, some Jazz, Led Zeppelin (like who didn't), Frank Zappa, Pink Floyd, and the Grateful Dead album Terrapin Station. Just a list of bullet points, some of which I saw come together on PA.

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

All genres of music could make a claim of "getting bigger" when the data chosen to support the hypothesis is selective - whether there are more or fewer bands in any given genre is something that can never be determined because it is a statistic that has never been collated.
This.

Edited by HackettFan - May 27 2015 at 12:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 12:23
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I'm kinda with Atavachron......I just don't believe the word "prog" is getting bigger at all. In the music news, it may still be a buzz word when describing for example Rush, sure they are prog and are pretty big right now in the news.
But after bands like that or Yes and some that are still playing live, do you really describe the new bands as prog...in that same sense? I don't think so.

You still cannot walk up to the common music fan and ask them to name a prog band of late, one that is part of this growing mass of bands. If you ask me Metal has grown by leaps and bounds and is everywhere.....

We should be happy that prog seems to be in a flat growth pattern, if not slightly down.
But is it about the word, 'Prog'? Jethro Tull was a big part of the success of Prog for a certain period of time. I know someone down the road from me who was a Jethro Tull fan, yet had no idea what Progressive Rock was. I think that's true for a lot of long lost Tull fans. How relevant is that? I know four or five college students nowadays who are young modern day Pink Floyd fans, yet they know nothing of Prog generally. Shouldn't it be more about trends in music than the name, Progressive Rock or Prog (or P-Rock or whatever they call it in the future).

Edited by HackettFan - May 27 2015 at 12:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 12:45
Originally posted by Gallifrey Gallifrey wrote:

Yes and no, depends what kind of prog.

(...)  Prog is popular but it's not the sort of stuff that PA likes, to be honest. (...)
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 13:24
Ermm the exit doors aren't locked, if what you see here displeases you can always go elsewhere.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 13:38
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

Of course prog is growing, the old bands have not disappeared so accumulation with new bands means a growing genre.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 14:20
I actually think it is getting bigger in it's own way. To clarify, I don't mean it's going to be the next big thing..radio, tech and reality TV have already ensured that won't happen.. and it was the big thing in the Seventies. It's never gone away but it's had it's low points. I'm 46 so I wasn't really around for the initial heyday..but I was there for the beginning of Neo-Prog, and the more commercial albums of Yes, Genesis, Asia etc, but it sparked my interest in the classics..so I went back and discovered them. I believe this is still happening with youth today. My nephew is a teenager and he is into Periphery..this led him to Dream Theatre and Porcupine Tree. I am judging by the crowds I see at prog shows. I live in Vancouver, and am finally seeing prog rock shows here..for years we got nothing..now I can see Magma and Steven Wilson in the same year..and I am seeing young people at these shows. I go to buy the Steven Wilson Tull box sets at HMV and the young kid at the till is telling me how much he loves Tull. So more shows, more new prog bands, Prog Rock magazine..I think the Prog rock scene is extremely healthy. That's my two cents.Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 15:09
Has nobody yet looked at the record/iTunes/concert ticket sales figures of artists falling into the genre over the years, or new music projects formed for that matter? I think that would be the only objective way to gauge this, and a pretty obvious one but testing it would take quite a bit of work.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 15:27
I first started to get into prog in the late '70'd when punk was supposedly killing it off.  It survived even as the more famous artists succumbed to commericialits.  Prog has benefited a lot from the internet  Even pop artists embrace a little prog now and then as they have become stale.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2015 at 15:47
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I'm kinda with Atavachron......I just don't believe the word "prog" is getting bigger at all. In the music news, it may still be a buzz word when describing for example Rush, sure they are prog and are pretty big right now in the news.
But after bands like that or Yes and some that are still playing live, do you really describe the new bands as prog...in that same sense? I don't think so.

You still cannot walk up to the common music fan and ask them to name a prog band of late, one that is part of this growing mass of bands. If you ask me Metal has grown by leaps and bounds and is everywhere.....

We should be happy that prog seems to be in a flat growth pattern, if not slightly down.
But is it about the word, 'Prog'? Jethro Tull was a big part of the success of Prog for a certain period of time. I know someone down the road from me who was a Jethro Tull fan, yet had no idea what Progressive Rock was. I think that's true for a lot of long lost Tull fans. How relevant is that? I know four or five college students nowadays who are young modern day Pink Floyd fans, yet they know nothing of Prog generally. Shouldn't it be more about trends in music than the name, Progressive Rock or Prog (or P-Rock or whatever they call it in the future).

I hear ya.....but the OP asks "Is Prog Getting Bigger?"...my answer to that question is I don't think so. I think many here agree, who cares what the label is, which is why most youngsters have no clue what the word or genre of Prog is.
We are the only ones left to explain that Pink Floyd and Tull were Prog bands, once we die off others will listen to Pink Floyd, Tull, Rush, Yes, Genesis because it's really good interesting old a$$ music....not because it is Prog  
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