Why the criticism for Tony Banks?

I wouldn't take such criticism seriously.

Big Kid Josie wrote: While I think Emerson, Wakeman, Fritz, Moraz, and maybe Lord are faster, more dexterous keyboard players, I don't consider Tony Banks "inferior" at all!  His composing skills and use of mellotron and synth tones (see "Entangled", "Cinema Show", "Unquiet Sleepers") are top-notch.  He is a big part of why Genesis is one of the great classic era bands.  He absolutely deserves to be up there with the other keyboardists I listed. I agree he gets the blame for "drowning" out/forcing out Hackett and that's probably where the dislike comes from.  How much of that is his blame to carry, I don't know. He certainly went along with Collins' descent into pop dreck, which looses him a point on my Prog-o-meter, but it's not like Genesis was the only prog band to go pop in the 80's (I'm lookin' at you, too, ELP and Yes).  It's just they were the worst...

I think Yes produced more of that "pop dreck" than anyone else in their latter albums. Banks and company trespassed with only Invisible Touch and its follow-up (and Follow You, Follow Me).

Rednight wrote: Big Kid Josie wrote: While I think Emerson, Wakeman, Fritz, Moraz, and maybe Lord are faster, more dexterous keyboard players, I don't consider Tony Banks "inferior" at all!  His composing skills and use of mellotron and synth tones (see "Entangled", "Cinema Show", "Unquiet Sleepers") are top-notch.  He is a big part of why Genesis is one of the great classic era bands.  He absolutely deserves to be up there with the other keyboardists I listed. I agree he gets the blame for "drowning" out/forcing out Hackett and that's probably where the dislike comes from.  How much of that is his blame to carry, I don't know. He certainly went along with Collins' descent into pop dreck, which looses him a point on my Prog-o-meter, but it's not like Genesis was the only prog band to go pop in the 80's (I'm lookin' at you, too, ELP and Yes).  It's just they were the worst... I think Yes produced more of that "pop dreck" than anyone else in their latter albums. Banks and company trespassed with only Invisible Touch and its follow-up (and Follow You, Follow Me).

Genesis did much more pop than only those two albums. Almost every album after And Then There Were Three was at least half pop, and most of the other half would be proggy pop. And even ATTWT has it's share of pop (come on even the previous 2 albums still with Hackett had a good share of pop... though very nice pop).

The south pole just had to be moved further south (we live on an egg now instead of a ball) to make that possible.

Rednight wrote: Dellinger wrote: (come on even the previous 2 albums still with Hackett had a good share of pop... though very nice pop). Boy, did your argument go south with this last bit.

Why? You don't think those last albums with Hackett didn't have any pop in them? Of course I'm not saying they weren't prog albums anymore, but they did have some pop songs in them... or perhaps I've been so much into prog and metal lately that I find it difficult to judge what non proggers would find pop. However, since I usually only listen to what I have in my IPod, which are of course only my favourite songs from each album, I don't remember so well many of the songs, but from "A Trick of the Tail", at least the title track is pop, I would say Squonk too, and perhaps even "Entangled", though that one has that extended keyboard solo at the end. And as for "Wind and Wuthering", I always thought Afterglow was mostly poppy... even though it's a really wonderful song that I really love (well, perhaps if you put it in context with the previous two instrumentals it might be proggier, but by itself I'm not so sure). And "Your own Special Way"... I haven't heard that one for a good while, but I thought that one was mainly pop too.

I'd call Trick..and Wind & Wuthering pop-ified versions of Genesis-prog, but still prog enough more or less all the way through.  Maybe Your Own Special Way could be a pop song but at 6 plus minutes a tad too long.  

FuseProg94 wrote: Do you feel that Tony Banks is unfairly criticized?

unfairly?? No!!!

1- Nothing that went on in Genesis happened without his consent.... so those saying Phil ruined Genesis in the 80's, it was with Tony's consent, period. 


2- Did Tony act unfairly against Hackett, while in Genesis? I'd say yes, until it was too late . Hackett had dozens of tracks that Banks didn't want to hear about until W&W... That's why Hackett had done two solo albums (the first with Ruther & Collins,.... but without Banks That shows already a problem). Even in ToTT, Hackett's only got one track credit (Entangled).... So When Steve voiced his estranhement, Banks allowed him four tracks on W&W, but stopped a fifth by allowing Rutherford's insipid YOWS to double the length (did that awful tear-jerker need to be 6-mins+?? You can hear that the song goes uselessly a second time around for no valid reason)... Sooooo Steve left.... And Tony's all-too-late gesture went unthanked ...


3- And Banks never forgave Hackett... probably because Genesis was closer to folding after W&W (Collins also wanted to quit with his marriage failing >> he followed his wife to Vancouver >> hence that little heard Genesis track) than when The Gabe left after The Lamb... Indeed in 75, they were sure Genesis would go on.... but not quite so sure in 77... Big uncertainty....Aanswered by the opening track of ATTWT (even that titkle shows the trauma of the band at the time) Read the lyrics of Down & Out, and in between the lines, you'll read Bank's reproaches to Hackett and the "new start" the band had to take. And to keep ,Phil in the band, Banks probably had to make him a senior partner in Genesis, equal to him & Ruther. In doing so, that probably meant that he allowed Phil's undeniable pop touch take an equal shot (more of this in point 5)


4- And Banks never forgave Hackett, and if Steve's place is never equal in the recent compilations & boxsets, no doubt it's Banks' doing.


5- In terms of big scummercial success , Banks is the only that didn't get a major success outside Genesis... The Gabe, Collins and Ruther (via the Mechanics) all went to #1 .... But even Hackett did via that TV show generic music... and also via the atrocious GTR album (>> the 80's really stank, uh?)... but he, Tony, never did!!!




Strangely enough, despite leaving the band, Hackett goes too far (IMHO) in milking Genesis' aura. He should get over it, at least as much as Banks should.

IMHO, of course




Edited by Sean Trane - July 05 2015 at 05:35

I would say that Banks' masterful keyboard arrangements are why I love Genesis so much. Sure, all members impress, but Tony has a 'Midas Touch' when it comes to keyboards. I can, practically, not fault Banks' work, though I don't like everything the others have done.
But yes, he does come across a bit snooty.

Rednight wrote: Dellinger wrote: Angelo wrote: The south pole just had to be moved further south (we live on an egg now instead of a ball) to make that possible. I understand you think there was barely any pop on the Genesis albums before Invisible Touch? I mean, Abacab was mostly all pop (and in this case rather bland pop which I don't really care much about), except for Dodo, of course. I just got Duke too, and it mostly sounded pop to me, except for Duke's travells, and perhaps Man of Our Times, which was perhaps a bit too hard to be really pop (though I'm not sure I'd call it prog either). As for the Genesis self titled album, I haven't got that one yet, so I only know if for the songs that appear on live albums, from which I remember the ones I like "Mama", which I guess has elements of both pop an prog, and Home by the Sea, which for me is a wonderful prog track of the 80's (though the vocal parts are still mostly pop). And for "Ant then there were three", I also don't remember most except for what I have in my IPod, which are mostly the prog songs... so I guess that one is at least half heavy on prog, and half (wich I don't remember much) rather pop. No self-titled Genesis yet. Well, hurry up, already. It's only been out 32 years.

Yes, there is an album called "Genesis" released in 1983.

rogerthat wrote: I'd call Trick..and Wind & Wuthering pop-ified versions of Genesis-prog, but still prog enough more or less all the way through.  Maybe Your Own Special Way could be a pop song but at 6 plus minutes a tad too long.