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Topic ClosedWhy the criticism for Tony Banks?
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ProgressiveHypocrite View Drop Down
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Points: 29 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2015 at 08:15
This is how I would rank them:
 
  1. Wakeman
  2. Banks
  3. Emerson.

Don't hate!

 
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Points: 7946 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2015 at 13:53
Originally posted by twosteves twosteves wrote:

Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

Hes not technicoly inferior thats a fact, hes among the most important synth/keybord.innovators lf 2-3 decades


Yes far from inferior--he's one of the top 3 best ever---for everything he does---only criticism is he's a bit of a moody prick who has said things that have downplayed Hackett's role in the band ---and built up his role. 


I have to agree, even down to the point of "moody prick". His playing wasn't an issue, but his lack of ability to get along with others apparently was. Remember he didn't get along (musically) with Gabriel either. Recall how a few years back Hackett refused to be part of a Genesis reunion if Gabriel wasn't part of it, and then how both of them were treated in the final form of that recent BBC documentary. I think the old tensions are alive and well.

Hackett often lost out in the mixes on various albums. In spite of this, I think the extent to which Genesis was keyboard heavy is really over-exaggerated. Hackett was very good at sounding like a keyboard (much like Anthony Phillips, incidentally). I know for me a lot of very cherished parts of Genesis pieces were from Hackett, whereas on a casual listen one might think it was from Banks. Nevertheless, Banks had a great talent for song writing that is clear. Whether he was on a par with the keyboard acrobatics of Keith Emerson, I don't know, given that I suspect that a lot of his cycling runs were not that difficult, but I'll let an actual keyboardist have the final word on that.
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Points: 7946 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2015 at 14:05
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I like Tony as a musician although he only did one good solo album that I have heard.   If you've seen Tony in interviews he comes across as a bit arrogant.   In particular the most dismissive of the old prog fans of the notorious three.

Hackett really exited because he wanted to try things that just wasn't Genesis material.  Just listen to Please Don't Touch (just don't touch it, please).


Actually the title track of Please Don't Touch is very much in line with Genesis material. It was Pushed for by Hackett for inclusion on Wind & Wuthering. It not being included was a major impetus for Hackett leaving. Nonetheless, I take well your point that Hackett wanted to try other things. He had and still has a view of progressive music that was based on breaking down barriers between genres.

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Genesis took a turn towards deliberate songs for commercial success and succeeded.  Hackett tried that with Cured and other albums after that and was not successful. 

So for the present Hackett has been making some good new prog music, Banks, et. al. have not.   And correct me if I'm wrong, I always have an open ear.
GTR had quite a bit of commercial success. Hackett just seemed to recoil from it a bit. The commercial success of GTR funded the exquisite solo classical guitar album, Momentum. Remember also that Hackett was principally responsible for Genesis' first hit, I Know What I Like...

Edited by HackettFan - June 15 2015 at 14:14
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Points: 29625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2015 at 05:13
I remember GTR and it came out at the time I was sort of on board with the prog artists going commercial.  These days I have mixed feelings about that, which I also did at the time.  I have found I have no real interest in revisiting a lot of that old material on CD.  Some of the LPs have survived the flood of 2009 but I have no functioning turntable at the moment so I'm not going to convert them any time soon...
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 19942 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2015 at 06:59
Originally posted by prog4evr prog4evr wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by prog4evr prog4evr wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Hackett is definitely my favourite Genesis member and I don't think Banks or Rutherford should be blamed too much for Hackett's exit.  Somebody who has had such a long and prolific solo career probably wouldn't have been satisfied with any amount of freedom or any amount of weight given to his compositions.  The time had come for Hackett to break out and start his own band and so he did.  With that said, I do think Banks could have avoided drowning out the sound of Hackett's parts the way he did on say Ripples.  


If you mean the Steven Wilson re-master of 'Trick of the Tail' then, yeah.  But, blame the keyboards drowning out Hackett on Wilson's f**ked-up remastering - not on Banks.  On the pre-Wilson original (I had both the cassette and the vinyl originals), Hackett's playing on Ripples was meant to be subdued against the arpeggiations of Banks - almost like a rippling effect through a still pond.  You can tell (with my expletives not deleted) that I have no love for any of Wilson's re-mixes. Even the original CD mastering off of the analog tapes (in the late 80s / early 90s) was better before Wilson got his grubby hands on it...
When did Steven Wilson remaster Trick of the Tail? The last remaster I'm aware of is in the green 1970-75 box set.

From "Trick of the Tail (CD/DVD)". Genesis (official web store). Retrieved on 13 April 2015 as Note 35 in the Wikipedia article, it states:  "A new version of A Trick of the Tail was released in the UK and Japan in 2007 as part of the Genesis 1976–1982 box set. This includes the entire album in remixed stereo, surround sound, and related video tracks." While it does not specifically mention Steven Wilson, I believe I read elsewhere that his grubby hands were behind this unfortunate remix of a wonderful album...

Interesting but I don't think it was Wilson, there's not normally any secrecy over his remasters. That wiki page says "All of the audio tracks on these CDs were remixed in stereo and surround sound by producer Nick Davis,"
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Points: 24 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2015 at 06:05
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by FuseProg94 FuseProg94 wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

by who?

By a lot of people that write and frequent amateur record review sites. Even some journalists have made comments about Banks' interview manner.
Links?
I'm curious to see who are those fools LOL

Here are a couple of links:

http://starling.rinet.ru/music/genesis.htm - Check the third paragraph down and some of the reader comments. - search for the sentence "But the real bug that always kept naggin' at Genesis seems to be keyboard player Tony Banks."

http://www.johnmcferrinmusicreviews.org/genesis.htm - All the way down at the 9th paragraph - starts with "Finally, there's keyboardist Tony Banks."
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2015 at 08:25
Originally posted by FuseProg94 FuseProg94 wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by FuseProg94 FuseProg94 wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

by who?

By a lot of people that write and frequent amateur record review sites. Even some journalists have made comments about Banks' interview manner.
Links?
I'm curious to see who are those fools LOL

Here are a couple of links:

http://starling.rinet.ru/music/genesis.htm - Check the third paragraph down and some of the reader comments. - search for the sentence "But the real bug that always kept naggin' at Genesis seems to be keyboard player Tony Banks."

http://www.johnmcferrinmusicreviews.org/genesis.htm - All the way down at the 9th paragraph - starts with "Finally, there's keyboardist Tony Banks."
Thank you FuseProg94 Thumbs Up
Well, only an idiot could wrote this:

Quote  He's professional and educated, of course, even though, put next to Keith Emerson or Rick Wakeman, he'd probably look like a six-year old tapping at the piano with his dad's slippers.

The crucial question is: why  to put him "next to Keth Emerson and Rick Wakemen"? LOL Tony Banks did do nothing less memorable solo parts and (or) composing work at Genesis' albums than what Keith Emerson and Rick Wakeman were done in their bands. Although all of those three bands were belong to the English Symphonic rock, they are all very different to each other, and as Tony Banks could not be involved in the work with the ELP and (or) Yes, so none of the aforementioned super-super-super-virtuosos would not be able to be involved in Genesis' music.
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Points: 19942 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2015 at 08:29
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Well, only an idiot could wrote this:

Quote  He's professional and educated, of course, even though, put next to Keith Emerson or Rick Wakeman, he'd probably look like a six-year old tapping at the piano with his dad's slippers.

The crucial question is: why  to put him "next to Keth Emerson and Rick Wakemen"? LOL Tony Banks did do nothing less memorable solo parts and (or) composing work at Genesis' albums than what Keith Emerson and Rick Wakeman were done in their bands. Although all of those three bands were belong to the English Symphonic rock, they are all very different to each other, and as Tony Banks could not be involved in the work with the ELP and (or) Yes, so none of the aforementioned super-super-super-virtuosos would not be able to be involved in Genesis' music.

It's a fair question imo. He's just comparing them at a technical level and it's quite possibly that Banks is not at the same technical level as the other two (although I'm not in a position to judge, as a non-keyboard player). I have heard it said that Banks dropped the intro to "Firth of Fifth" when playing live as he couldn't play the intro properly, although I tend to doubt this having heard a Genesis tribute band play it without any problem.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2015 at 09:18
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Well, only an idiot could wrote this:

Quote  He's professional and educated, of course, even though, put next to Keith Emerson or Rick Wakeman, he'd probably look like a six-year old tapping at the piano with his dad's slippers.

The crucial question is: why  to put him "next to Keth Emerson and Rick Wakemen"? LOL Tony Banks did do nothing less memorable solo parts and (or) composing work at Genesis' albums than what Keith Emerson and Rick Wakeman were done in their bands. Although all of those three bands were belong to the English Symphonic rock, they are all very different to each other, and as Tony Banks could not be involved in the work with the ELP and or) Yes, so none of the aforementioned super-super-super-virtuosos would not be able to be involved in Genesis' music.

It's a fair question imo. He's just comparing them at a technical level and it's quite possibly that Banks is not at the same technical level as the other two (although I'm not in a position to judge, as a non-keyboard player). I have heard it said that Banks dropped the intro to "Firth of Fifth" when playing live as he couldn't play the intro properly, although I tend to doubt this having heard a Genesis tribute band play it without any problem.
That dilemma about Mr Banks' techical level in comparision with Mr Wakeman and Mr Emerson is a false dillemma because Mr Banks' "poor" techical level was quite "enough" for his role in Genesis. One thing is to be Yes' keys player, other thing is to be a keys player in Genesis, it's another story. Following the author's pretzel logic, there are more of bigger virtuosos than Tony Banks, not only Keith Emerson and Rick Wakeman; for example Vangelis and Patick Moraz and so what? it's an idiotism to compare those great artists on that way.

Edited by Svetonio - June 17 2015 at 10:32
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Points: 2807 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2015 at 09:51
 

Nothing wrong with Tony Banks tapping at the piano with his dad's slippers. The late David Bedford often employed a brick to play piano for Keven Ayers band The Whole World. Keith Emerson had a storm troopers knife. Tony Banks is a slippers man.
 
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Points: 1940 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2015 at 11:06
Slipper huh...so Tony Banks could have been the main 'Slipperman' and Genesis the 'colony' in Gabriel's tale. It's all starting to make sense now, man. 
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Points: 7946 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2015 at 15:31
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

<span style="line-height: 16.5454540252686px;"></span>
Well, only an idiot could wrote this:

Quote <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; line-height: normal; : rgb255, 255, 128;"> </span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; line-height: normal; : rgb255, 255, 128;">He's professional and educated, of course, even though, put next to Keith Emerson or Rick Wakeman, he'd probably look like a six-year old tapping at the piano with his dad's slippers.</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;">
</span>

<span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">The crucial</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">question</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">is: w</span>hy  to put him "next to Keth Emerson and Rick Wakemen"? LOL <span style="line-height: 1.4;">Tony Banks did do nothing less memorable solo parts and (or) composing work at Genesis' albums than what Keith Emerson and Rick Wakeman</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">were</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">done</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> in their bands. Although all of those three bands were belong to the English Symphonic rock, t</span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">hey are all</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">very different to each other</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;">,</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">and</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">as</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">Tony Banks</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">could not</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">be</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">involved in the work</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">with the</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">ELP</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">and</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps="" atn"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">(</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;">or</span><span =""="" style="line-height: 1.4;">)</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">Yes</span><span =""="" style="line-height: 1.4;">,</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">so</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">none of the</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">aforementioned</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> super-super-</span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">super</span><span ="atn"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">-</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;">virtuosos</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">would not be able</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">to</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">be</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">involved in</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span><span ="hps"="" style="line-height: 1.4;">Genesis' music</span><span =""="" style="line-height: 1.4;">.</span>

It's a fair question imo. He's just comparing them at a technical level and it's quite possibly that Banks is not at the same technical level as the other two (although I'm not in a position to judge, as a non-keyboard player). I have heard it said that Banks dropped the intro to "Firth of Fifth" when playing live as he couldn't play the intro properly, although I tend to doubt this having heard a Genesis tribute band play it without any problem.
I think the issue with playing the Firth of Fifth intro live was his lack of a proper piano. The intro sounded corny played on an electric piano. Synths of the time were not good at mimicking a piano sound. Tribute bands are now able to play it because they can get a believable timbre from modern digital pianos.
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Points: 20451 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2015 at 15:34
Originally posted by Prog Sothoth Prog Sothoth wrote:

Slipper huh...so Tony Banks could have been the main 'Slipperman' and Genesis the 'colony' in Gabriel's tale. It's all starting to make sense now, man. 
 
 
LOL
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Points: 1399 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2015 at 08:41
It's interesting to note that in 70, Banks got disillusioned and thought about quitting Genesis.  Apparently Harry Williamson (Ant Phillips collaborator, and also Mother Gong, etc.) was waiting in the wings, and this irked Banks to sticking with Genesis.  Imagine how the course of prog history would have changed had Williamson come in!


Edited by Flight123 - June 19 2015 at 08:44
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Points: 233 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2015 at 22:00
I'm willing to bet that George would take back that section if he could.

As for what I wrote: I agree with George on the principle that there is something a little off about Banks' playing, but I try to make it clear that I don't think it's because Banks doesn't live up to Emerson and Wakeman on their terms. One of my issues is that Banks doesn't always come out on top even in cases that are more favorable comparisons: it's not a perfect comparison, but I've really come to feel that the best comparison to Banks' role with Genesis among the major prog rock groups (strictly in keyboard terms) was Kerry Minnear's role in Gentle Giant, and I have preferred Minnear almost from the beginning.

The best overall comparison I can come up with for Tony Banks in regards to the strengths and weaknesses he brought to Genesis, which I didn't mention on my page because it's too non-musical, is an NBA one: Banks strikes me as the prog-keyboardist equivalent of Russell Westbrook or the 2010-12 version of Rajon Rondo. Bill Simmons (prior to getting fired) would often talk about the concept of 90-10 guys, people who are great in 90% of what they contributed and where you'd just have to find a way to live with the 10% that was a poor contribution. Banks is more of an 85-15 person for me, but the point still stands: there is 15% of what he contributed in total to the band that I learned to live with but still doesn't thrill me (some crappy lyrics, some weird phrasing choices, some arrangement choices etc), but overall I'm willing to forgive him for these because of the 85%, which includes things like being the primary composer and direction setter for one of my favorite bands.


Edited by tarkus1980 - June 19 2015 at 22:01
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Points: 6744 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2015 at 00:19
Tony Banks ain't that hot, if you can play his stuff on electric guitar!  
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Points: 2807 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2015 at 05:29
Just remembered another Tony Banks one.
Genesis were the noobs on 6 bob tour with Lindisfarne (wayyaaa maan) and the then acid/tequila fueled VdGG. While I am sure Genesis were very pastoral and pleasing on the ear, VdGG ripped venues to shreds with their sonic performances. Apparently they went down a storm and stole the shows, except in the norf of England where the wayyaaa flat capped whippet brigade enjoyed Lindisfarne's poppy stuff.
Old Banksy subsequently reviewing the tour was totally dismisive of Lord Hugh Banton, claiming he lacked talent and just made a din and there was a lot of feedback. Feedback! its f**king rocking man.  
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Points: 7946 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2015 at 01:21
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Tony Banks ain't that hot, if you can play his stuff on electric guitar!  


It sounds better on guitar.
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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2015 at 20:06
A nervous disposition makes for bungling interviewing sometimes. But if you really understand him, Collins has openly winced many times....and forgiven him. And when he does pour praise on his colleagues, well he is very generous. But that is not often.
 
His lack of commercial success IMHO helped prolong the wonder and endurance of the Genesis sound. Had he been a hit it would have been overs for Genesis and we would have enjoyed Banks & the Bikers, Mike & the Mechanics and Phil & the Philanthropists.
 
Still what a keyboard player and contributor to the Genesis wall of soundClap
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Points: 48 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2015 at 16:53
While I think Emerson, Wakeman, Fritz, Moraz, and maybe Lord are faster, more dexterous keyboard players, I don't consider Tony Banks "inferior" at all!  His composing skills and use of mellotron and synth tones (see "Entangled", "Cinema Show", "Unquiet Sleepers") are top-notch.  He is a big part of why Genesis is one of the great classic era bands.  He absolutely deserves to be up there with the other keyboardists I listed.

I agree he gets the blame for "drowning" out/forcing out Hackett and that's probably where the dislike comes from.  How much of that is his blame to carry, I don't know.

He certainly went along with Collins' descent into pop dreck, which looses him a point on my Prog-o-meter, but it's not like Genesis was the only prog band to go pop in the 80's (I'm lookin' at you, too, ELP and Yes).  It's just they were the worst...
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