Why the criticism for Tony Banks? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Moogtron III View Drop Down

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Posted: July 07 2015 at 04:07

Sean Trane wrote:

Read the lyrics of Down & Out, and in between the lines, you'll read Bank's reproaches to Hackett and the "new start" the band had to take.

Never looked at it that way! Perhaps you're right.

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Posted: July 07 2015 at 04:09

Dellinger wrote:

rogerthat wrote:

I'd call Trick..and Wind & Wuthering pop-ified versions of Genesis-prog, but still prog enough more or less all the way through. Maybe Your Own Special Way could be a pop song but at 6 plus minutes a tad too long.

Thanks, I think you explained better what I was trying to say.

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Intruder

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Posted: July 08 2015 at 09:50

I don't remember where I heard or read it, but hasn't Hackett stated that Banks had him play thru effects that made his guitar blend with the keys, thus, I feel, muting a lot of the inventiveness of his playing. Hackett has some great moments on Genesis albums, but a lot of the time I have to strain to hear what he's up to.

There were some moments during that BBC doc, especially during the very few moments when Steve spoke up, where Bank's expressions betrayed him. If looks could kill... There were even times when Peter's comments caused Banks to become defensive. Mike seems to be smart enough not to bring up touchy topics, and Phil is still the new guy with no pedigree. I love how Phil mentioned that when he showed up and started bashing away in perfect time - he made Genesis "swing" a bit! - that Tony was a bit taken aback as the band had previously pored over single notes for an hour, but Phil just let loose....something it seems Tony has trouble doing.

I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there.....

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Posted: July 12 2015 at 22:23

I say this as a huge Banks fan but he comes off very poorly in interviews and when speaking about the band in general. Quick to credit himself , slow to praise others. If you listen to the album by album interviews they did for Archives some years back he just isn't very likable. I guess I get that in a band situation with 5 members someone has to be the SOB , to tell others their material wasn't good enough, make cuts , etc. .Tony seemed to be the one to do that in Genesis. Some of those resentments with Hackett in particular still seem to run deep. I think he's always been a bit miffed about his lack of solo success despite his attempts at self deprecation about it. That being said I still think he's a fantastic keyboard player and his songs are the ones i gravitate the most towards in the band. Gotta take the sour with the sweet so to speak.

Edited by Badrogue17 - July 12 2015 at 22:24

Squonk19

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Posted: July 16 2015 at 18:06

A tricky one - a huge classic Genesis fan - and Banks was a huge part of that. Let's face it, Cinema Show and parts of Suppers Ready alone mean he's practically untouchable! Yet his downgrading of Hackett, and the relish he embraced the band's move to pop-rock (and underplayed the prog emphasis) disappointed me ("You can't sing about nymphs and faeries forever..." he patronises in the current 'Prog' magazine here in the UK - as if they recycled the 'Fountain of Salamacis' on every album). The body language between him and Steve in the group interviews in the recent documentary were rather strained, and clearly from Mike's comments about Tony views of his autobiography - he's a man of strong views. Still think a touch of envy regarding solo success lurks underneath. A man to admire but not necessarily to like. Sorry.

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miamiscot

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Posted: July 16 2015 at 18:20

Tony Banks is a titan.

twosteves

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Posted: July 16 2015 at 19:33

agree with both Squonk and miamiscot^^^

wish he wasn't so mean to Hackett they would make such great music together--my fantasy a Banks/Hackett release---Tony has more money than god---why not do something artistic for you prog legacy.

Squonk19

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Posted: July 16 2015 at 19:43

Squonk Hunter! Just spotted you!

You'll never catch me!!! I'll cry before you do! Seriously - nice to see you on a Tony Banks thread.... Cheers to a Texan from a UK Prog fan! Keep the faith!

“Living in their pools, they soon forget about the sea.”

Rednight

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Posted: July 16 2015 at 21:57

Moogtron III wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

Read the lyrics of Down & Out, and in between the lines, you'll read Bank's reproaches to Hackett and the "new start" the band had to take.

Never looked at it that way! Perhaps you're right.

Nope, don't see it. Down and Out sounds like nothing more than the story of a regional sales manager in town to kick some salesman a$$ while talking the tough talk, nothing more. Banks was probably content enough with Hackett leaving that it was easy to move on and concentrate on the next production. I don't think he'd be dwelling on an ax to grind to have to allude to Hackett in any of its songs.

"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno

Chris S

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Posted: July 16 2015 at 23:17

^ What's wrong with a regional sales manager in town

ATTWT is an epic masterpiece with one of the most brilliantly awkward, tricky songs ever to open an album

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Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Posted: July 17 2015 at 05:04

Rednight wrote:

Moogtron III wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

Read the lyrics of Down & Out, and in between the lines, you'll read Bank's reproaches to Hackett and the "new start" the band had to take.

Never looked at it that way! Perhaps you're right.

Read between the lines...
Banks tried to hold Hackett back: first by the unusual amount of Hackett space allowed on W&W (compared to previous albums) and then by money.... and the group was on the verge of folding (snce Collins was also thinking of it via his pending divorce - that he couldn't avoid). The song is IMHO about the last chance to remedy (There's a lot on the line, a lot to say, There's something I must tell you today), and about growing into a poppier band (A more commercial view, a fresher face), which would not sit well with Hackett

It's good to be here, how've you been?
Check my bags, boy where's my room?
I sit on the phone, that's my game
Keep up the pressure all the way

I don't want to beat about the bush
But none of us are getting any younger
There's people out there who could take your place
A more commercial view, a fresher face

I need a shower, take a nap
I'll meet you in the bar, we must have a rap
There's a lot on the line, a lot to say
There's something I must tell you today

You and I both know the score
You can't go on like this forever
So it's with regret, I tell you now
That from this moment on you're on your own

I don't talk round corners
It's right between the eyes
If you're slow they'll run past you
Stand tall, see them falling over

I walk a straight line
It's right between the eyes
Well show me the door
Show me someone who'll do it better

The drinks are on me, be my guest
Smoke a cigar, take the best
Don't hedge your bets, we can make a deal
You got it in your pocket and how you feel?

So glad that's over, now you know
But I'm only acting under orders
And looking down on you from way up here
You've got to sink or swim, get off the floor

I don't talk round corners
It's right between the eyes
If you're slow they'll run past you
Stand tall, see them falling over

I walk a straight line
Right between the eyes
Well show me the door
Show me someone who'll do it better

Tom Ozric

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Posted: July 17 2015 at 06:28

Down And Out
............big deal....... I really despise reading 'between the lines'....... If everyone did this, the world would be half its population.................. There's no (seroius) meaning in lyrics of perceivably 'sinister' intent. When Sting sings "every move you make, every cake you bake, every smile you make, every breath you take, every sound you make, every cock you take....... How sinisterly paranoid is this sh*t ????????? Lyrics are lame ( unless they're Hammill's)

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Posted: July 17 2015 at 06:33

Number 9.

twosteves

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Posted: July 17 2015 at 08:16

Read a long time ago that Down and out was about Hackett leaving----like Squonk was about Peter---group doesn't acknowledge it and would never---

even the last line of Down and out--show me someone who'll do it better---there is a big guitar part right there at the end of the song that sounds like a Hackett riff---but Hackett would have done it better. Thumbs Up

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Posted: July 17 2015 at 22:44

Squonk19 wrote:

Squonk Hunter! Just spotted you!

You'll never catch me!!! I'll cry before you do! Seriously - nice to see you on a Tony Banks thread.... Cheers to a Texan from a UK Prog fan! Keep the faith!

I'll trick ya' and then kick ya' into my sack...You better watch out...Ha. Greetings from an old Texas progger here. Been at it since I first heard The Yes Album in 1971. I grew up in the Dallas area and Prog was very big there in the 70s. Those were the days.

"You never had the things you thought you should have had and you'll not get them now..."

Intruder

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Posted: July 18 2015 at 21:27

Down always sounded like a mean-spirited song - I've long taken it as a stab at Hackett, especially the "commercial/new face" and "do it better" lines....and then a guitar outburst to end. I can't take credit for "discovering" this potential inner-meaning.....the theory's been tossed around quite a bit in the Genesis fan stables. And if Squonk was written as a send off to Peter, then those dude's were cold-blooded to the core......blame it on Banks!

Dallas, Texas, eh? I'm a transplanted Texan (in Vietnam at the moment on assignment) living down San Antonio way.....well, at least Austin is only an hour away.

I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there.....

timbo

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Posted: July 28 2015 at 07:11

That's the first I've heard about Down and Out being a stab at Hackett, sounds like reading a bit too much between the lines to me, although stranger things have happened. I didn't realise there was such animosity between Banks and Hackett until the recent documentary.

I prefer to think of Banks as the architect of the Genesis prog sound. Not as flashy as Wakeman or Emerson, but much more in tune with the music - plays to the song, not the audience.

As a keyboard player, he was my first rock hero, if only I could play half so well...

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Posted: July 28 2015 at 08:31

Banks has one problem: He is no improviser. I would for example have loved a live version of "Supper's Ready" in which Banks would go really wild on the keyboards in the "Apocalypse" part, but no; he sticks note for note to what he played in the studio. Which is the main reason why I consider Genesis not to be a good live band. It is in my opinion extremely boring if you don't go and improvise for solos during a live concert.

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Moogtron III View Drop Down

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Posted: July 28 2015 at 13:45

BaldFriede wrote:

Banks has one problem: He is no improviser. I would for example have loved a live version of "Supper's Ready" in which Banks would go really wild on the keyboards in the "Apocalypse" part, but no; he sticks note for note to what he played in the studio. Which is the main reason why I consider Genesis not to be a good live band. It is in my opinion extremely boring if you don't go and improvise for solos during a live concert.

I think I even read that in his later years with Genesis he had a device on his keyboards which corrected him automatically if he played a wrong note. This would make improvising even impossible

Edited by Moogtron III - July 28 2015 at 13:51

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Posted: July 28 2015 at 16:04

I concur. True, my guy Hackett improvises mainly in short bits, but he does do it and it's wonderful.