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Why so few American bands in 70's prog?

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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2018 at 07:10
Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

...
The more I hear music from other countries the more I realise that Britain doesn't have a monopoly; the development of progressive music happened world-wide; perhaps the UK just had the economic status and (supposed) power of the media to project this around the world. 

If you ever take a chance and read EUROCK going back to the very start, it even has an Italian band that opened for GENESIS that stated that they went on to grab all the costumes and masks and create something they did not invent. That, however, should not detract or take away from GENESIS and the great work they put together, which I still like a heck of a lot.

But Britain, was, at the time almost at the end of their heyday in the arts ... the 50's and 60's were unbelievably strong for them in theater, film, writing and many arts ... and to say that the music scene did not make it, or have any ability or impact, doesn't really make sense, unless ... these arts only took place in London, and the rest of the country ... Olivier who? ... Burton who? ... which I doubt it. 

Thus, the media not trashing the music, even when one goes back to Long John and John Mayall, and many others is interesting. One look at "comedy" for example, and the BBC had The Goons through out the 50's and they were so darn progressive that the BBC even cut out parts of it that they did not want broadcast, though, for some reason they kept the Parliament satires intact ... "I resign" ... ("snorring") ... ("coughing") and slow old folks' voices. Later, by comparison Monty Python ended up being a cartoon and the rest of the time it was more of a situation prime time American TV thing ... same room, with different color scrim in the background!

The US, was not too far off. In the time in Madison, as an example, I saw ETC LaMamma Group, The National Theater of the Deaf, The Living Theater, Andres Segovia, and in Chicago I saw Yehudi Menuhin and Ravi Shankar ... and these were all very different and experimental groups all around ... they were not closet theater from your local high school, which is what most Americans think of theater these days, because it does not have stars like it did in the 50's and 60's.

The American Theater and Film scene was quite progressive, and even things like MASH ended up giving TV a show that lasted a lot, and its design is something that Hollywood will NOT DO at all, and refuses to allow actors to be a part of the design and writing, unless they own the show ... less than a handful!

I always thought that music was slower to come around in America, but in the end, it wasn't ... it was not watched, observed and discussed and basically completely ignored by the media which did EXACTLY what the USA YESTERDAY does ... only mention and support the "artists" that they have a financial interest in, thus articles on this one or that one, merely says that the conglomerate owns a portion of that artist's work and it is in their interest to support it however minimally.

But the clarity of the whole thing, was heard in Madison, with a DJ on the AM station that was a total jerk off that was still on the air when I left for California ... he used to play JJ (the KKristofferson song), and then comment what a lousy singer she was and immediately play the Cowsills. Or play The Doors, and then say, that the guy will burn himself down instead and then play 1910 Fruitgum Company. No matter how much "comedic" content that might be, it showed a healthy disrespect for the music, although later, something like this kind of crap helped develop Beta and Video with a really badly made porno film!

It's hard to say that America did not have anything "progressive" and eventually (later) as "prog" ... I know it had it, but when I moved to California, it was totally different than Madison ... and long hair was  a fad, and getting stoned was a double fad ... and now you know why a group like the Eagles and Fleetwood Mac (the American version) could become so big and famous, and hurt all the other bands around!

... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2018 at 09:13
You go with what you know. In the Detroit area in the late 60s, the music matched the environment: gritty, urban, anti-establishment and in many cases violent. You weren't going to get a Jon Anderson tra-la-la-lally through the green valley sort of prog song.

Hence, you had bands like Iggy and the Stooges, MC5, Alice Cooper, Frost, Frijid Pink, Savage Grace and the Amboy Dukes. Very little classicism in the lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2018 at 22:01
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

You go with what you know. In the Detroit area in the late 60s, the music matched the environment: gritty, urban, anti-establishment and in many cases violent. You weren't going to get a Jon Anderson tra-la-la-lally through the green valley sort of prog song.

Hence, you had bands like Iggy and the Stooges, MC5, Alice Cooper, Frost, Frijid Pink, Savage Grace and the Amboy Dukes. Very little classicism in the lot.

LOL Yeah, I can't really see a Jon Anderson tra-la-la-lally in Detroit back in that era, especially when it was burning down!  (believe me, Chicago was burning down at the same time).  

Indeed, Detroit really did spring some amazing rock music onto the world back then!  Chicago, not nearly as much....we've never lived up to our potential for home-grown music IMHO.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote noni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 11 2018 at 00:16
Too many burgers and steaks!!!  LOL

I shall get my coat and leave! Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 11 2018 at 12:05
Originally posted by noni noni wrote:

Too many burgers and steaks!!!  LOL

I shall get my coat and leave! Wink

You are probably right about that!  

Apologies for our insulting US President Donald Trump!!  Poor PM Trudeau sure was beat upon by the Trump administration! 

They need to chill and listen to more prog! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 11 2018 at 12:53
Can a band now record a song called "Tra-La-La Lally Through the Green Valley"?

Or maybe that's a good band name?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blaqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2018 at 22:02

Early prog rock drew on classical music, i.e. European invention. Experimental US rock in the 70s drew on the American genre of jazz and psychedelia, hence much more jazz-rock and psychedelic releases.  



Edited by Blaqua - June 13 2018 at 22:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2018 at 08:03
Originally posted by Blaqua Blaqua wrote:

Early prog rock drew on classical music, i.e. European invention. Experimental US rock in the 70s drew on the American genre of jazz and psychedelia, hence much more jazz-rock and psychedelic releases.  


I find this a bit too generalized.

It's hard to think/say, that someone in America had never heard Tchaikovsky, Mozart, Bach or Stravinsky. The likelihood is that they knew a little about it, perhaps not the musical details as deep as one would think, but enough to have a reasonable idea ... after all, when you are learning music in high school, guess what you learn? Well, I hear that nowadays, some kids want to learn Stairway to some Heaven somewhere, but that is hardly progressive for our thoughts, and that means that the kids will take on their heavy, or hard stuff they like ... including some rap. Hard to think that what you hear on the car radio/cd when you are walking downtown is not a really good show of how de-sensitized people are about "music" which has been "removed" from many school systems since the Ford days, when they started taking away money for any artistic this or that. One group even commented that it was hard to keep voters together if you offered them liberal arts ... they would stray, instead! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't have "freedom" anymore, folks!

Europe, still has an incredible history of music and the arts. American History did their best to destroy all the arts, to ensure no one asked anything about the foreigners, and the Natives that had it before. This way, you thought that it was just a barren desert landscape and the new folks brought in all the anything that was needed, which of course, would not include the arts, but lots of religion!

America's music, drew on what was here. Jazz was not an "accident" ... it was already there along with the blues and other Black Music out there. Thus, a lot of the popular music scene showed that side of things. European players showed a bit of their history with things that were more musically defined, although there are/were many folks experimenting that did not want, or care for a lot of that kind of thinking.

America, however, had one other horrible thing. It had no respect for the arts, except for the rich few in the big city! Thus, the record companies, guess who owned them!, would not release, or allow anything that it was not "considered" important, and that meant a piece of music that became a hit, which they immediately bought to ensure the money stayed home. This is how "corporate" makes it in America ... everyone sells out! The 50's and 60's are an incredible heaven for experimentation and long cuts, and guess what you don't find released at all ... Miles used to play for an hour non stop ... have you heard one of those pieces? You won't either! The Grateful Dead used to play all night and have pieces an hour long. Have you heard any of them? Good luck ... and this is the kind of "control" that hurts the music more than it helps ... it takes away the appreciation for MUSIC, which the USA lacks in general.

It is really sad, to read/see/listen to some of the folks posting here, and they are my age ... it's like a part of their lives is missing. And this is what the "media state" has done ... all it's missing, of course, is the uniforms and a gun, right? Ohhh wait ... is that a database? 


... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blaqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2018 at 11:07
"It's hard to think/say, that someone in America had never heard Tchaikovsky, Mozart, Bach or Stravinsky."

 

Classical music, even if taught at schools, wasnít rooted in the US culture, wasnít part of it. The same holds for medieval history and affiliated elements and it is not odd that US artwork or lyrics associated with the Middle Ages, castles, queens or knights were uncommon. No group stateside could ever write the very British or European In the Court of the Crimson King or Pantagruel's Nativity.          

 "America, however, had one other horrible thing. It had no respect for the arts"

"appreciation for MUSIC, which the USA lacks in general"

 These are one hell of generalizations. You imply that the US lacked bands and artists playing quality music during the period in question and that this was not being promoted or released??

 " guess what you don't find released at all ... Miles used to play for an hour non stop ... have you heard one of those pieces? You won't either! The Grateful Dead used to play all night and have pieces an hour long"

 Donít forget the very tight time limitations of vinyls. One-hour songs donít fit on one side of an LP and in fact even two sides weren't enough! Also, why listen through such a long endless improvised song, when you can just listen to its gist in a few minutes? Quality over quantity.

 "And this is what the "media state" has done"

Relax and unwind moshkito, no State will keep you from enjoying your arts.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2018 at 11:16

^ I don't want to rehash all of Mosh's post except to point out that Americans had regard for  their own arts, not Great Britain's or Europe's. How did he think modern jazz and electric blues evolved? By accident?

"Madonna and Lady Gaga are prog, Parliament/Funkadelic are more prog than the Beatles ever were.....Wrap your closed mind around that." said the joker to the thief.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote terramystic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2018 at 14:32
Originally posted by Blaqua Blaqua wrote:

Classical music, even if taught at schools, wasnít rooted in the US culture, wasnít part of it. The same holds for medieval history and affiliated elements and it is not odd that US artwork or lyrics associated with the Middle Ages, castles, queens or knights were uncommon. No group stateside could ever write the very British or European In the Court of the Crimson King or Pantagruel's Nativity.


Ahem ... Return to Forever - Romantic Warrior!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2018 at 14:34
^ Good show! Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote terramystic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2018 at 14:43
America - blues and jazz, Europe - classical. That's too generalized. What is jazz anyway? A fusion of music - also from Europe and Africa. Then we also have third stream ... On the other side early English rock bands were heavily influenced by blues. Avantgarde music was in America as well as in Europe ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blaqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2018 at 14:45
Originally posted by terramystic terramystic wrote:

Originally posted by Blaqua Blaqua wrote:

Classical music, even if taught at schools, wasnít rooted in the US culture, wasnít part of it. The same holds for medieval history and affiliated elements and it is not odd that US artwork or lyrics associated with the Middle Ages, castles, queens or knights were uncommon. No group stateside could ever write the very British or European In the Court of the Crimson King or Pantagruel's Nativity.


Ahem ... Return to Forever - Romantic Warrior!


Thatís why I said UNCOMMON, not inexistent


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2018 at 07:39
Originally posted by Blaqua Blaqua wrote:

...

 Donít forget the very tight time limitations of vinyls. One-hour songs donít fit on one side of an LP and in fact even two sides weren't enough! Also, why listen through such a long endless improvised song, when you can just listen to its gist in a few minutes? Quality over quantity.

...

The LP does not, and never did, limit anything. You are now stating that the length of all Beethoven's Symphonies fit perfectly on a Vinyl LP, and that is not the case, and never was. They were all of varying lengths and parts of it taken out by the conductor to make the length necessary.

It's insane, and I think crazy, to think that all Symphonies, including Mahler and Tchaikovsky and everyone else, had them at 20 by 20 and perfectly matched to suit a LP that was created over 100 years later, and specially when in the early days, the LP could hardly handle 10 minutes. Thank goodness the symphonies did not get cut!

Many of these, and I have not studied this as well for 40 years, appear to have had movements created in the continuity to help the whole thing fit into a LP.

Miles and GD and many others could easily do this and release it, if a record company was willing, but they weren't and wouldn't, and continually thought that the band had to have a radio piece. Miles did not have a radio piece, and at the time, was not considered a major artist, until later when he finally hit his zenith.

Klaus Schulze has pieces that are hours long ... and even the LP releases never really hurt them. 

Originally posted by Blaqua Blaqua wrote:

...

Relax and unwind moshkito, no State will keep you from enjoying your arts.


Keep on supporting and believing in the quality of the materials you are getting and listening to. One day, you might wake up and find that the difference between a fascist state and a "democracy" ... is not really that different, when it becomes a corporate run development, and that is what it all has become. And music? The same ... for the most part, although the Internet gives us all a chance to find other things, but sadly, even with our friend DaveSax, having a hard time selling, because there is no media to help him. He has to post, instead of concentrating on his music to get some attention. He might as well get nude manequins at your door, or dressed up sheep at your door, to get some attention! And hope that 2 or 3 folks at PA will buy it!

The LP was fine. It's only problem is that MAGICALLY all pieces of music became 20x20 ... and that has always bothered me horribly ... I seriously doubt that Mahler or Beethoven sat there and composed their pieces with a clock and stopped it to fit 20 minutes for the first 2 movements, and then 20 minutes for the rest of the piece. That's not only sick and ludicrous, it just tells you how the LP has changed the way we think about music and DECIDED that the LP's limitations is what music is about, and that is not the case. 

The MUSIC was there way before the LP. And its death is just fine with me, in the hope that it can FINALLY get rid of the time limitations on any piece of music!

Please see the LP in its proper context .... a lot of the bands in the late 60's and early 70's were trying hard to bust that 20 minute syndrome and they did very well, and we called it "progressive" music and such ... and now you are adding another "limitation" to the progress in that music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2018 at 08:30
https://www.udiscovermusic.com/in-depth-features/prog-a-very-british-kind-of-rock/




"But where did progressive rock come from and why is it so intrinsically linked to the UK? Indeed, it is worth noting that for a large part of the musicís original 70s heyday, few could hold a candle to the UK originators of the genre. The likes of 
Genesis, Yes, Caravan, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Barclay James Harvest and Jethro Tull ruled the roost to such an extent that America didnít even really attempt to cash in on this wildly extravagant music. They merely took some traits of Prog, melded them with more radio-friendly sounds and created pomp rock in bands such as Kansas, Styx and Starcastle, which as the 70s progressed would give way to the slicker soul............."

Edited by dr wu23 - June 18 2018 at 08:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blaqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2018 at 08:36
"LP does not, and never did, limit anything"

 ?? Of course it limits the duration of individual tracks, since it imposes time limitations. How can you fit a seemingly endless track on a LP every side of which can only contain a limited number of minutes? The only way is to SPLIT the track into two or more parts. Thatís what prog rock and jazz artists did in order to fit &release their overly long compositions. Issue solved and thus an LP's time limitations did not restrict their creativity. To think that they and "fascist" labels restricted or concealed it is a fallacy that torments you and makes you still bitch about f**king absolutely nothing like a paranoid preacher.

 " Keep on supporting and believing in the quality of the materials you are getting and listening to."

Moshkito's codename for "modern art sucks"

 " One day, you might wake up and find that the difference between a fascist state and a "democracy" ... is not really that different, when it becomes a corporate run development, and that is what it all has become."

 Tell me you are an anarchist and it would be the funniest line I've read on this forum.

 "It's only problem is that MAGICALLY all pieces of music became 20x20 ... and that has always bothered me horribly ... "

Since you like Miles Davis, let me remind you Dark Magus, just one more LP far from the "hated" 20x20. Hopefully that thought of yours will now no longer bother you horribly.

 "... and now you are adding another "limitation" to the progress in that music"

No need to repeat my first paragraph.

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