Did the Beatles really Invent Prog? Or not?

Svetonio wrote: history nerd wrote: LearsFool wrote: odinalcatraz wrote: LearsFool wrote: I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard. Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. As I said already, Fripp may be wrong or lying here: Robert Fripp- wanted King Crimson to emulate the Beatles' proclivity for packing many strands of meaning into a song, so that a record could stand up to repeated listening: "The Beatles achieve probably better than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the twentieth time." Fripp wished Crimson could "achieve entertainment on as many levels as that. And that's the evidence of Fripp wanting to do studio magic like the Fab Four, like I said. But - and this is surprising to me at times - that ended up the extent of it. Well of course the influence of the Beatles is going to be overstated. My god, they are perhaps the biggest Rock and Roll band in history! But I think we should be careful not to tip the pendulum to far in the other direction either. From a functional perspective it makes sense that people will name check the Beatles because everyone will instantly be familiar with them and even specific tracks that can be pointed to. And if people want to go back and listen to "Proto-Prog" (I hate this site's terms) the Beatles will be the obvious starting point. Clouds on the other hand are amazingly obscure and a fun to name drop in a place like this, but hardly a cultural touchstone even for PA posters. Clouds even aren't on the PA list of prog bands, they are in prog-related section, i.e. not prog. Probably 'cause they went from Scottland

You should have heard them before they dumped the bagpipe player. Now, that was Prog! 

SteveG wrote: Svetonio wrote: history nerd wrote: LearsFool wrote: odinalcatraz wrote: LearsFool wrote: I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard. Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. As I said already, Fripp may be wrong or lying here: Robert Fripp- wanted King Crimson to emulate the Beatles' proclivity for packing many strands of meaning into a song, so that a record could stand up to repeated listening: "The Beatles achieve probably better than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the twentieth time." Fripp wished Crimson could "achieve entertainment on as many levels as that. And that's the evidence of Fripp wanting to do studio magic like the Fab Four, like I said. But - and this is surprising to me at times - that ended up the extent of it. Well of course the influence of the Beatles is going to be overstated. My god, they are perhaps the biggest Rock and Roll band in history! But I think we should be careful not to tip the pendulum to far in the other direction either. From a functional perspective it makes sense that people will name check the Beatles because everyone will instantly be familiar with them and even specific tracks that can be pointed to. And if people want to go back and listen to "Proto-Prog" (I hate this site's terms) the Beatles will be the obvious starting point. Clouds on the other hand are amazingly obscure and a fun to name drop in a place like this, but hardly a cultural touchstone even for PA posters. Clouds even aren't on the PA list of prog bands, they are in prog-related section, i.e. not prog. Probably 'cause they went from Scottland  You should have heard them before they dumped the bagpipe player. Now, that was Prog!

(As my first foray into this always heated topic, I'm just going to lay out my 2 cents)

I'm not going to go out there and say that the Beatles "invented" prog, but they did help bring it to the masses, along with bands like Pink Floyd, and the Moody Blues, among other, in the form of psychedelic rock.

But as all music goes, nothing is ever truly "invented", but rather created from inspiration or creativity from sounds or music by previous artists or bands.

Hell, all that studio wizardry the Beatles were notorious for? You can thank a German composer named Karlheinz Stockhausen, notorious for dabbling in electronic music and tape splicing and manipulation. Songs like "A Day In The Life" and "Revolution 9" were inspired by composers who experimented with electronic manipulation like Stockhausen, Luciano Berio, Edgard Varese. And you can repeat the same tracing of progress back to the very beginnings of music back to the age of the Romans and Greeks!

(Don't believe me on the Stockhausen thing? His face is on the Sgt. Pepper album cover [use Wikipedia to find him])

In terms of breaking the mold and introducing new ways of making music, yes, the Beatles where incredibly influential in doing so, but they didn't 'invent' any genre of music at all, let alone prog.