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emigre80 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
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Points: 2223
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 Posted: July 07 2015 at 18:00 |
 Imperial Zeppelin wrote:
Yes. They also invented psychedelia and toasters. |
Hey! I own a toaster! nice to know who should get the credit.
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miamiscot
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 23 2014
Location: Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 3421
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Posted: July 07 2015 at 18:38 |
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The Beatles certainly did not invent Prog. Rather they were part of the primordial stew from which Prog sprung.
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aglasshouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 27 2014
Location: riding the MOAB
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Points: 1505
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Posted: July 07 2015 at 18:41 |
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When there wasn't much competition (1963-1964) The Beatles were playing pop music like Please Please Me. When the Beatles eventually evolved into something better other bands had come around. Beatles were influential to all genres but other bands defined prog as well. That's all, no offense meant towards them.
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http://fryingpanmedia.com
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20503
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Posted: July 07 2015 at 19:00 |
Atavachron wrote:
The Nice kicked ass all over the place-- they were magnificent, mistakes and Davy O'List not withstanding. They were the first group to sound like a prog band when everyone else was looking at pretty colors in the sky. Micky's right.
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Sorry David, but the Nice's monochromatic view of 1960's psychedelia is what relegated them to the fishbowl following that they existed in. However, I have heard it mentioned that they were considered geniuses in France.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 64352
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Posted: July 07 2015 at 19:11 |
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Fishbowl or not, if you really listen to the first three and Five Bridges, you hear essentially the ELP model. Keith knew enough to drop a band going nowhere and get with some quality players, but in their time the Nice were fleshing out the common blueprint for English symph and in that context there was no one doing anything like it. One may cringe at the band's juvenile attitude and rough sound, but the compositions themselves set the stage for keyboard-oriented Prog.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
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Points: 12688
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Posted: July 07 2015 at 19:12 |
SteveG wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
The Nice kicked ass all over the place-- they were magnificent, mistakes and Davy O'List not withstanding. They were the first group to sound like a prog band when everyone else was looking at pretty colors in the sky. Micky's right.
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Sorry David, but the Nice's monochromatic view of 1960's psychedelia is what relegated them to the fishbowl following that they existed in. However, I have heard it mentioned that they were considered geniuses in France. |
Yes, but the French also gave Jerry Lewis the Legion of Honor for his "comedic genius". So there's that to consider as well. 
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
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Posted: July 07 2015 at 19:14 |
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^ Jerry Lewis was a genius, I don't care what anyone says; most haven't even watched his solo films from the early '60s. Absolutely brilliant.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20503
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Posted: July 07 2015 at 19:14 |
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^I've said previously that they were the first truly fully formed prog band. They just didn't invent prog. Or kick ass all over place.
Edited by SteveG - July 07 2015 at 19:27
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
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Joined: September 30 2006
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Points: 64352
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Posted: July 07 2015 at 19:15 |
SteveG wrote:
I've said previously that they were the first truly full formed prog band. They just didn't invent prog. Or kick ass all over place. |
Okay-- but no, they certainly did kick some butt, they just really sounded awful while doing it 
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20503
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Posted: July 07 2015 at 19:19 |
^Agreed. And the original Nutty Professor did kick but too!
Great movie.
Edited by SteveG - July 07 2015 at 19:28
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Komandant Shamal
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2015
Location: Yugoslavia
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Points: 954
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Posted: July 07 2015 at 19:39 |
dr wu23 wrote:
C'mon folks...we have had this discussion many times before and we all know that
ITCOTCK and KC were the first 'real prog rock' album and band.
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King Crimson werent 'first real prog rock album and band'. F*ck revisionism! The Nice and Family were released 'real prog' albums before King Crimson.
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Friday13th
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 30 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 284
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Posted: July 07 2015 at 20:16 |
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I'd take Family over The Nice for sure! Music in a Doll's House is brilliant, if still a bit bluesy and psychedelic to be called the first prog album I think.
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
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Posted: July 07 2015 at 20:26 |
Komandant Shamal wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
C'mon folks...we have had this discussion many times before and we all know that
ITCOTCK and KC were the first 'real prog rock' album and band. |
King Crimson werent 'first real prog rock album and band'. F*ck revisionism! The Nice and Family were released 'real prog' albums before King Crimson.
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I don't believe it is revisionist in the least. There were plenty of albums prior to In the Court of the Crimson King that had prog characteristics - some more, some less, but all open for debate (and isn't this thread itself representative of that argument?) - but In the Court of the Crimson King represents the first album that is inarguably and without a doubt prog-rock.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Friday13th
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 30 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 284
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Posted: July 07 2015 at 20:31 |
Any revisionists have already pledged their allegiance to the fab four
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LearsFool
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
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Points: 8618
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Posted: July 07 2015 at 20:53 |
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I'd say that In The Court wasn't the first prog album, but it was the first quintessential one - and to more than one path prog would go down in its wake.
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aglasshouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 27 2014
Location: riding the MOAB
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Points: 1505
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Posted: July 07 2015 at 22:34 |
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I thought a lot of people thought Piper was the first....
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http://fryingpanmedia.com
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 08 2015 at 02:41 |
Svetonio wrote:
Archetypical English psychedelia, called "Freakbeat" at that time,
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No it wasn't. It was called psychedelic pop "at that time". "Freakbeat" was coined in the 1980s and that's like erm, ten years after the 60s were finished so certainly not "at that time" maaaaan. It describes a transitional style of music that didn't actually exist, at that time or any other, and is only used by people who weren't actually there maaaaan.
aglasshouse wrote:
I thought a lot of people thought Piper was the first.... |
No, that is, was and always has been, considered to be psychedelic rock/pop album. Saucerful too, albeit with some proto-Prog moments. Floyd's first true Prog album would have been Ummagumma if it had been a single studio album.
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What?
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Gentle Yes
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 07 2015
Location: greece
Status: Offline
Points: 65
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Posted: July 08 2015 at 03:13 |
It's true, not only are they under-appreciated, but there are few live videos, i mean the only decent one on youtube is that live in Germany (i don't remember the name) in '73 i think and the audio quality sucks. The big dissapointment for me though is that they have completely dissapeared, not only as ''Gentle Giant'' but as individual artists as well... I think that they had much more to give , even if they released more than 10 albums, we needed more.. The sound they had, the music they wrote, the subjects of the lyrics, John Weathers face... 
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PrognosticMind
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 02 2014
Location: New Hampshire
Status: Offline
Points: 1195
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Posted: July 08 2015 at 04:05 |
Pastmaster wrote:
Gentle Yes wrote:
I think there is no doubt that psychedelic rock was the predecessor of progressive rock, i mean you can clearly hear some progressive elements in mid 60's bands... Now I think that saying that SFF was the first prog song (or album) is farfetched. The Beatles were a classic psychedelic-pop band, maybe too classic.. don't get me wrong, i like the Beatles, who doesn't? but i couldn't say that they have anything to do with prog.. SFF is maybe a little bit different from ohter Beatles songs as they wrote it in the psychedelic-colours-drugs etcetera era. Nevertheless it's just another Beatles song.
It's too difficult to say with precision who wrote the first prog song or album.. most say it was Zappas Freak out! but Strawberry Alarm Clock who formed in 1966 (same year as Freak out!) have a lot more prog elements (for me). The same goes for The 13th floor elevators who existed before Freak Out!
Anyway.. i think most of you would agree that finding the actual prog birth is almost impossible... The only thing i can say for sure is GENTLE GIANT RULE. |
Completely agree 
And yes, Gentle Giant does rule, they deserve more appreciation.  |
This!
Also, your avatar is awesome, Pastmaster!
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"A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?"
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 08 2015 at 06:04 |
A Fable: There is this
thing called The Pond. The Pond is a vast body of saline water that covers one
fifth of the surface of the World, thus it is the Sea of Atlas and it separates The Old World from The New World physically,
culturally and poetically in a metaphoric sense. Sited in the north-eastern low
water margins of The Pond is an archipelago of
over 6,000 islands, of which all but a few of the larger ones are uninhabited
save for colonies of ocean going sea birds and the occasional seal. The largest
and most populous of these islands was logically termed The Great Island by the peoples who lived there and they adopted the name of The Great Island as their
own and took its name to heart,
and they saw themselves as separate from The Mainland of The Old World as the Great
Island itself is. Now, geologically the rock
that forms The Isles are a fusion of two continental plates, being the melding
of The Old World with The New World that are now separated by the 7,000 mile
expanse of The Pond. This confluence yielded a Whole that was more than the sum
of the two Worlds and because formation of The Isles brought forth minerals and
riches that were buried deep within the continental plates of both The Old World
and the New World such that they were in easy reach of the inhabitants of those
larger islands, and attractive they were to those who saw to conquer and occupy
them. So wars were waged and battles fought for control of The Isles, from
lands far away on The Mainland of The Old Word, from North and South and East
they came to gain access to the mineral deposits, and over time the victors
integrated with the peoples of The Great Island and became the peoples of the
Great Island and the minerals gave them the wealth they sort; and with great
wealth came great power and influence in The Old World, and through that, Independence
from it. Though many more subsequent wars and battles would be fought to keep
their Independence from The Mainland of The Old World, alas there is no celebratory
calendar date for this Independence to be commemorated with flags and bunting
and great feasting for it was a miasmic war of attrition fought over many decades
and centuries by Kings and Emperors and would be Kings and Pretenders. With
this Independence came a separation of The Culture of The Great Island from
that of The Mainland, where that Culture encompassed Thought and Idea, of Art and
Science and Religion and of Freedom, and that too gave power and influence to
the peoples of The Great Island and the separation of The Culture brought forth
Ideas and Thoughts that would change both Worlds that would ultimately lead to
the formation and formulation of The Culture of The New World, and even of The
New World itself. For the hard-won power and influence that Independence granted
in turn gave them dominion over the northern reaches of new found lands of The
New World across The Pond, so into that New World the peoples of the Old World
expanded. However, the battles and wars of The Old World spilled into The New
World, for it too had riches to be sort, to be fought over and won. Until, like
The Great Island before it, the peoples that occupied The New World also
achieved their Independence from The Old World. And again, like Independence of
The Great Island, the Independence of The New World created a separation of The
Culture of The New World from that of The Great Island and The Mainland of The
Old World. Yet Ideas can cross The Pond at two-thirds the speed of light so a tenuous
connection persists creating a synergy between Cultures that takes the germs of
Ideas and develops them tangentially and in parallel. The flow of Ideas crossed
physical and Cultural boundaries of The Pond, and the closest synergy existed
between The New World and The Great Island in spite of their differences, and
in spite of those differences the Great Island peoples looked not to The
Mainland but to the West, to The New World. [As poet of the Great Island later wrote:
“North was somewhere years ago and cold:
Ice locked the people's hearts and made them old. South was birth to pleasant
lands, but dry: I walked the waters' depths and played my mind. East was dawn,
coming alive in the golden sun: The winds came, gently, several heads became
one. West is where all days will someday end; Where the colours turn from grey
to gold, And you can be with the friends.”]. The unexpected consequence of
this tale is Progressive Rock; this was not an invention, (because it isn’t a
single identifiable thing that can be neatly defined, classified, categorised
and compartmentalised), but a confluence of contradictory tangential and
parallel developments of shared Ideas drawn together by some metaphorical Great
Attractor (metaphorically) buried deep within The Pond. The precursors to this
are as separate and distinct as the distance between the land-masses that
separate the peoples that created and developed those Ideas, they share little
but a name, whether that name be Jazz Rock Fusion or Psychedelic Rock or just
Pop Music in all its forms and guises, such as Baroque Pop to name but one. And
since those were developments born out of flux rather than a single invention they
have disjointed chronologies and, once again like the Independence of The Great
Island, the Birth of Progressive Rock cannot have a celebratory calendar mark to
be commemorated with flags and bunting and great feasting, for it too is a
miasma of developments forged by disparate Ideas, albeit enacted over a few
brief years rather than many decades and centuries created by Artistes rather
than Kings and Emperors. No one artist created the archetype from which all
else was created for there is no archetype that can be categorically
identified. We can locate and identify the oldest rock that formed The Isles
and state with Scientific confidence that it was formed eons ago on the
continental plate that is now The New World, what that lump of rock is not, is
the Whole of The Isle, nor is it the archetype from which The Isles were formed.
Just as that lump of rock does not make The Isles part of The New Word nor does
it make The Isles as old as that lump of rock, identifying the earliest rock precursor
of what was later categorised as Progressive Rock does not make that lump of rock
Progressive Rock or even the initial Idea that solely lead to its development.
tl;dr
Squabbling over who was the
first will never yield an answer because there wasn’t one single identifiable first.
All we can say with any certainty is that it was first identified as being a
distinct category of Rock music in The Great Island being performed by Artistes
from The Great Island, that we later recognised likeminded Artistes performing
likeminded Rock music in The New World and on The Mainland of The Old World and
categorised them into the same canon merely indicates that the genre is considerably
broader than first imagined and that tangential and parallel developments yield
similar results.
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Did the Beatles really Invent Prog? Or not?
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