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Ivan_Melgar_M 
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 Posted: July 14 2015 at 10:54 |
I can't support a guy who uses freedom of speech to attack other's people's beliefs. The way he attacks Catholicism in Sola Scriptura, and hides the almost nazi antisemitism of Luther is shameful.
To be honest, I don't like Christian or Catholic or whatever rock, turns music that should be free into a jingle.
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Friday13th
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 15:13 |
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^ Neal doesn't do that. Every modern Catholic acknowledges the corruption of the church during Luther's time. My uncle is a monk and tells me how much many Catholic monks revere Luther. Indulgences, witholding communion for political reasons, all these things are universally condemned by all Christians. Luther was an anti-semite, but almost everyone was back then due to widespread ignorance. No one is covering up anything, Neal is just not bogging down a man's inspiring work for his failures.
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dr wu23
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 15:14 |
Can one of the Morse fans here recommend his best solo album...? After Spock's Beard nothing I've heard by him has impressed me. Oh...and did he leave Spock on his own...forced out...or was this about the Christian direction..?
btw...I'm listening to the Grand Experiment right now....
Edited by dr wu23 - July 14 2015 at 15:17
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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SteveG
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 15:17 |
 sleeper wrote:
I don't mind Christian lyrics so much, despite being an agnostic with a serious dislike for religion, but it is entirely dependant on the writing style and delivery. Morse is a simplistic, crass writer that takes his beliefs and shoves it down the listeners throat without any sense of elequence or poetry at all, evoking all the worst kinds or cliches from christian music. Then there's his delivery, with his voice clearly mixed right to the very front leaving absolutely no doubt about what his singing and enhancing his "message". Then there's the fact that he's broken record, singing about the same damned subject on every bloody song for 15 prolific years. Then there's his music, which has zero identity of any kind. If it wasn't for the obvious absence of Dave Meros thundering bass tones, there'd be absolutley no way to tell his current music apart from his run in Spock's Beard (crappy lyrics aside). Or Transatlantic. Or Dream Theater in the instrumental sections. This might have been acceptable 15, 20 years ago when there were far fewer bands playing a modern take on Symphonic Prog and the musicians were all younger with more to say, but today these bands are ten a penny from the same group of people that have done it all before a dozen times over. Musically he has nothing left to say that we haven't all heard already multiple times.
It's not this is the only way to get his beliefs across in music either. Kerry Livegren wrote about Christianity a lot for Kansas and Proto-Kaw, and whilst the former doesnt interest me musically much, neither of them bother me in the slightest lyrically, even when I know it's religion they're singing about. The difference is talant (a subjective opinion, I know).
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Right on the money, Sleeper. Perhaps if Morse was a more talented lyricist, we might not be having this conversation. Lyrics are supposed to move people emotionally, not move people away from the music. Morse has this effect more than any other pro religious lyricist that I know of, and I've heard quite a few in my time.
Edited by SteveG - July 14 2015 at 15:20
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rdtprog
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 15:20 |
dr wu23 wrote:
Can one of the Morse fans here recommend his best solo album...?After Spock's Beard nothing I've heard by him has impressed me. |
He made more than 10 variations about the same concept, him, god and Mike Portnoy. All his albums talk about him or god and they make the marketing around those albums with the name of Mike Portnoy!  If you have heard one album, you have heard it all! Sorry i had to let that one out! I still love the guy...
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Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness.
Emile M. Cioran
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 17:29 |
Friday13th wrote:
^ Neal doesn't do that. Every modern Catholic acknowledges the corruption of the church during Luther's time. My uncle is a monk and tells me how much many Catholic monks revere Luther. Indulgences, witholding communion for political reasons, all these things are universally condemned by all Christians. Luther was an anti-semite, but almost everyone was back then due to widespread ignorance. No one is covering up anything, Neal is just not bogging down a man's inspiring work for his failures. |
O please man, I studied theology
Luther mutilated the Bible eliminating 7 books.
Nobody in the Church reveres Luther
Neal is defending a man who offered heaven to the princes if they killed the hungry peasents en extreme poverty while he attacks the Catholic Church to make propaganda for his beliefs.
Against the Robbing and Murdering Hordes of Peasants
Thus, anyone who is killed fighting on the side of the rulers may be a true martyr in the eyes of God,
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These are strange times, when a prince can win heaven with bloodshed better than other men with prayer!
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This is not a time to sleep. And there is no place for patience or mercy. This is the time of the sword, not the day of grace.
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Furthermore, anyone who can be proved to be a seditious person is an outlaw before God and the emperor; and whoever is the first to put him to death does right and well.
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Therefore, dear lords, here is a place where you can release, rescue, help. Have mercy on these poor people! Let whoever can stab, smite, slay. If you die in doing it, good for you! A more blessed death can never be yours, for you die while obeying the divine word and commandment in Romans 13 [:1, 2], and in loving service of your neighbor, who you are rescuing from the bonds of hell and of the devil.
Martin Luther 1525
http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Luther-Peasants.html
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Tell this stories to anybody who doesn't know history and theology, this is how he repaid the princes for financing the Reformation.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 14 2015 at 17:35
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Friday13th
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 18:03 |
I find it very odd that the man who accused Neal Morse of using his faith to bash other's beliefs is the only one actually doing so. What stories? What have I invented about anyone? I spoke only of personal experience. My uncle is a Catholic monk and he and some of his brothers revere Luther.
"Nobody in the church reveres Luther."
Look who's making sweeping absolutes. Ouch...there is an entire denomination called "Lutheran." I assume you are Catholic, but you must understand that all I'm saying is Neal's work was meant to be inclusive to all believers, something I doubt you do. I don't know how you could twist the message of Sola Scriptura into "hate all Catholics" or "Luther was the holiest, most non-racist man alive" or whatever strawman message when it is clearly just focusing on one commendable part of his life. It's about speaking out for what is right when no one else is. It doesn't matter if Martin Luther was wrong in other things. Do you support monetary indulgences? Of course not, no Catholic does. Martin Luther was the driving force to ending them. That's just one. Do you always throw the baby out with the bathwater?
Anyways, for anyone asking for Neal Morse suggestions I would suggest Sola Scriptura as his best as it is the the most complex, heavy, and ambitious.
Edited by Friday13th - July 14 2015 at 18:11
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 18:27 |
Friday13th wrote:
I find it very odd that the man who accused Neal Morse of using his faith to bash other's beliefs is the only one actually doing so. What stories? What have I invented about anyone? I spoke only of personal experience. My uncle is a Catholic monk and he and some of his brothers revere Luther.
"Nobody in the church reveres Luther." |
He should be excommunicated or better move to the Lutherans.
I'm not using my religion for anything, I don't care which religion you are. Neither I'm mentioning any dogma, only say I don't like people who use their music as a vehicle to sell a religion or a political view.
If a Catholic did as Neal, would be saying exactly he same
Friday13th wrote:
Look who's making sweeping absolutes. Ouch...there is an entire denomination called "Lutheran." I assume you are Catholic, but you must understand that all I'm saying is Neal's work was meant to be inclusive to all believers, something I doubt you do. |
I respect every religion, as a fact I'm marrying a Jew woman, I prayed in the Mosque of the Rock and the Synagogue of Jerusalem, but I ask the same respect for my beliefs
His work is not inclusive, he'a an anti-Catholic
Friday13th wrote:
I don't know how you could twist the message of Sola Scriptura into "hate all Catholics" or "Luther was the holiest, most non-racist man alive" or whatever strawman message when it is clearly just focusing on one commendable part of his life. It's about speaking out for what is right when no one else is. It doesn't matter if Martin Luther was also wrong in other things. |
Well, in Sola Scriptura he calls the Roman Catholic Churchs the Whore, the Mother and the “Daughters of a Harlot”
If you think the whore is only history
Are there those who teach her lies?
Wherever they believe what came out from her
The same spirit is still alive
Or when he criticizes our beliefs in the sains and in Mary
The pearl is trodden underfoot into the muck and mire
We'll take the Roman Gods except the names will all be changed
The woman's fed by ravens and her feet are in the fire
Cold and bare she's holding there 1260 day
That's sick hate and you know it....But this is worst
Not just from the mother but the daughters of the harlot
Everything that comes from her it must be left behind
Her rituals and teaching smells of death and bloody scarlet
Like Martin did before us let the scripture be our guide
That's a PERSONAL ATTACK to the Church and this is wrong, no different than Jack Chick or any hate site like Jesus-is-savior.com.
Friday13th wrote:
Do you support indulgences? Of course not, no Catholic does. Martin Luther was the driving force to ending them. That's just one. Do you always throw the baby out with the bathwater? |
Please, selling the heaven to the princes who kill peasants is worst than the indulgences, his anti-semitism is the worst in history.
And nobody supports the selling of indulgences, but that's not Mr Morse's point.
Friday13th wrote:
Anyways, for anyone asking for Neal Morse suggestions I would suggest Sola Scriptura as his best as it is the the most complex, heavy, and ambitious.
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My opinion is to avoid him, his hate speech is terrible
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 14 2015 at 18:49
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Friday13th
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 18:47 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
[QUOTE=Friday13th]
Well, in Sola Scriptura he calls the Roman Catholic Churchs the Whore, the Mother and the “Daughters of a Harlot”
If you think the whore is only history
Are there those who teach her lies?
Wherever they believe what came out from her
The same spirit is still alive
Or when he criticizes our beliefs in the sains and in Mary
The pearl is trodden underfoot into the muck and mire
We'll take the Roman Gods except the names will all be changed
The woman's fed by ravens and her feet are in the fire
Cold and bare she's holding there 1260 day
That's sick hate and you know it....But this is worst
Not just from the mother but the daughters of the harlot
Everything that comes from her it must be left behind
Her rituals and teaching smells of death and bloody scarlet
Like Martin did before us let the scripture be our guide
That's a PERSONAL ATTACK to the Church and this is wrong, if some Catholic musician said something similar, the attacks in the pages of Jack Chick and other hate sites, wouldn't stop.
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I see where you're getting it now, but I never took the lyrics that way and I don't think that's how they were intended. I'm pretty sure Neal has mentioned it's not against true Catholicism as it is against those who use religion for greed and selfishness. Everyone agrees there, no? I hope I can clear it up with what I thought those lines meant.
1. Who is a whore? Someone who SELLS themselves. The album is about believing with conviction and standing up for what you think it right. In this case it was the corrupted leaders of the Catholic church, but aren't there members of every religion guilty of the same? After your first quote the next line is: "Mercy, mercy, we're selling mercy" So in context it's about the indulgences, NOT about the modern day Catholic church filled with genuine believers. How about the Protestant TV evangelist who's selling scams? He's the whore. The religious prostitutes.
2. The "woman" is the allegory of the church (bride of christ) and is saying "she's in bad shape due to corruption." That's it. No bashing of Mary or anything.
The rest are similar, but I think if you looked at it trying to find similarities between the faiths you'd see it's just against abuse of religion.
Edited by Friday13th - July 14 2015 at 18:48
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 18:53 |
Friday13th wrote:
I see where you're getting it now, but I never took the lyrics that way and I don't think that's how they were intended. I'm pretty sure Neal has mentioned it's not against true Catholicism as it is against those who use religion for greed and selfishness. Everyone agrees there, no? I hope I can clear it up with what I thought those lines meant.
1. Who is a whore? Someone who SELLS themselves. The album is about believing with conviction and standing up for what you think it right. In this case it was the corrupted leaders of the Catholic church, but aren't there members of every religion guilty of the same? After your first quote the next line is: "Mercy, mercy, we're selling mercy" So in context it's about the indulgences, NOT about the modern day Catholic church filled with genuine believers. How about the Protestant TV evangelist who's selling scams? He's the whore. The religious prostitutes.
2. The "woman" is the allegory of the church (bride of christ) and is saying "she's in bad shape due to corruption." That's it. No bashing of Mary or anything.
The rest are similar, but I think if you looked at it trying to find similarities between the faiths you'd see it's just against abuse of religion.
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1.- Please, you're an intelligent guy, you know that this is hate speech and it's intentional, you can try to cover him, but it's obvious
Not just from the mother but the daughters of the harlot Everything that comes from her it must be left behind Her rituals and teaching smells of death and bloody scarlet Like Martin did before us let the scripture be our guide
2.- The reference to the saints and the virgin is in the part of the Roman Gods
We'll take the Roman Gods except the names will all be changed
3.- He compares the Church with a prostitute.
If you think the whore is only history Are there those who teach her lies? Wherever they believe what came out from her The same spirit is still alive
I have never seen this insults in a Catholic musician album, Morse crossed the line.
4.- Not to the modern day Catholic Church?
Her rituals and teaching smells of death and bloody scarlet
Like Martin did before us let the scripture be our guide
That's a clear reference to the actual Church.
5.- The last paragraph is Neal Morse's personal opinion and attack to the whole Catholic Church, and that's insulting.
Her rituals and teaching smells of death and bloody scarlet
I don't respect him, much less would pay a dime to be insulted.
I received one of his albums as a gift, thanked the good intention but threw it to the trash, as I would thorow an album that insults Moslems or Jews.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 14 2015 at 19:04
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t d wombat
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:04 |
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For me one of the great unexplained issues of religion is this. How is it that so many people have a supposedly intimate connection with there God yet their experiences vary so enormously ? Personally it supports my contention that religion is all internal but that's just me.
This has expanded beyond the question of how do Morse's beliefs affect his music and into a general discussion of religion and beliefs. Is that kosher ?
Edited by t d wombat - July 14 2015 at 20:30
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Andrew B
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micky
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:06 |
and I was only angry at Morse that his album defeated the Miriodor album...   once again... you all need to learn to heed Mick the Sage's wisdom... Italian prog.. forget the lyrics man. Dig the music.. dig the voice.. forget the attempts to be intelletual with music. These are semi ediucated musicians.. not philosophers. 9 prog lyricists suck for every 1 instance that is interesting...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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SteveG
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:14 |
I studied theology too. Until I realized it was about religion. Silly me.
Edited by SteveG - July 14 2015 at 19:14
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Mr. Maestro
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:23 |
t d wombat wrote:
For me one of the great unexplained issues of religion is this. How is it that so many people have a supposedly intimate connection with there God yet their experiences vary so enormously ? Personally it supports my contention that religion is all internal but that's just me.
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I suspect that many people would argue it like this: "Only people of our particular faith who had intimate connections with God were really in communion with the Almighty. People of other faiths who had 'religious' experiences were just suffering from delusions."
This isn't a very strong argument, to be sure, but it at least makes some sort of sense, especially if one's own beliefs are very strong. I've even used that argument on myself a few times in the past, though I realize I shouldn't. Letting one's own convictions go unchallenged by dismissing all possible challengers offhand is an act of intellectual suicide.
Edited by Mr. Maestro - July 14 2015 at 19:23
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"I am the one who crossed through space...or stayed where I was...or didn't exist in the first place...."
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rogerthat
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:27 |
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Oh wow, Ivan's posts really put into perspective why Morse gets a lot of flak. Before this, I never paid much attention to the lyrics and anyway found SB/Morse boring for my taste so didn't bother. But what he quoted does not make for good reading and I am not a Christian, just born Hindu and not a particularly devout one to put it politely. This is where religion gets it wrong again and again and Morse is but one such evangelist. The passion/anxiety/call-it-what-you-will to reform the world seems to get into such an overdrive that making a mockery out of other religions (the enemy, as it were) becomes a necessity and one wonders what happened to the 'healing' aspect of religion. Well, not that communism is very different though, in spite of being so non-believing and all that, so blame it on the power of ideological dogma to fascinate people to irrational levels.
Edited by rogerthat - July 14 2015 at 19:39
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:37 |
micky wrote:
and I was only angry at Morse that his album defeated the Miriodor album...
once again... you all need to learn to heed Mick the Sage's wisdom... Italian prog.. forget the lyrics man. Dig the music.. dig the voice.. forget the attempts to be intelletual with music. These are semi ediucated musicians.. not philosophers. 9 prog lyricists suck for every 1 instance that is interesting...
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Hey Mick, the lyrics of most Italian Prog bands are fantastic, ask Raff for Il Banchetto or 750.000 Anni Fa ... L'amore?, simply beautiful poetry.
The problem is that Sinfield never translated them (It's practically impossible to translate them without killing the beauty), he made terrible new lyrics
And of course Felona e Sorona is splendid in music and lyrics, Peter Hammill did a good job there with the translation.
IMO Italian lyrics are some of the most beautiful
PS: Say hi to Raff
Iván
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SteveG
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:41 |
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^Geez, I got my bible out for nuthin'.
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micky
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:43 |
will do my friend! Just interjected my trollishness digs nto the thread. Beautiful lyrics as I am beginning to learn. After all these years I'd finally getting off my ass and learning Italian Anyhow. Give 'em Hell Ivan. I'm with you 100% on this man. Just hit them with the blue font like you used to do me God those were the days.. blue font vs. red font.. we did have the most colorful quote pyramids didn't we haha
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:47 |
rogerthat wrote:
Oh wow, Ivan's posts really put into perspective why Morse gets a lot of flak. Before this, I never paid much attention to the lyrics and anyway found SB/Morse boring for my taste so didn't bother. But what he quoted does not make for good reading and I am not a Christian, just born Hindu and not a particularly devout one to put it politely. This is where religion gets it wrong again and again and Morse is but one such evangelist. The passion/anxiety/call-it-what-you-will to reform the world seems to get into such an overdrive that making a mockery out of other religions (the enemy, as it were) becomes a necessity and one wonders what happened to the 'healing' aspect of religion. |
Of course, this happened 498 years ago and started a couple centuries before, time to heal.
While 5 Popes reunite with the Luteran leaders 50 times between 1965 and 2015 to heal the wounds, when the mutual excommunications are terminated and the Luteran with Catholics sign the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification,
Comes this guy and throws his hatred.
Morse is doing no good, he's trying to destroy this efforts of peace and a possible reunion of two Christian Churches.
thousands of Anglicans asked for an Ordinariate to return to the catholic Church, the Pope created one allowing married Anglican priests and bishops to maintain their positions. Because of this, hundreds of thousands have returned, including complete parishes.
Sectors of Lutherans asked their own ordinariate, but Pope Benedictus XVI refused because both churches were in dialogue, and as a sign of respect for the joint efforts.
But Morse doesn't like this, so he starts this hatred again.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 14 2015 at 19:57
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t d wombat
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 20:26 |
Ah sod the lyrics .... go have a listen to Popol Vuh's sublime " Hosianna Mantra". Morse is not worthy to share the same thread. 
Edited by t d wombat - July 14 2015 at 20:32
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Andrew B
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Neal Morse - An Agnostic's View
