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2nd Round Classics: Discipline v. Mirage

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Poll Question: Pick One... if you can
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
41 [46.07%]
48 [53.93%]
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micky View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 2nd Round Classics: Discipline v. Mirage
    Posted: July 11 2015 at 08:24
now for the title match of todays polls... a true heavyweight match.

In this corner...  we have Discipline by King Crimson.. and in the opposite corner... Mirage by.. umm.. ok give it rest.. Camel LOLClap

can't decide... let these great reviews help you

for Discipline.. one of the most unique and funniest collabs ever to grace PA's.  Even made me look normal and dull in comparison. The incomparable .. Peter Rideout ClapClapHeart

King Crimson - Discipline CD (album) cover

DISCIPLINE

King Crimson

 

Eclectic Prog

4.11 | 1440 ratings

From Progarchives.com, the ultimate progressive rock music website

Peter
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5 stars During the late 70s, popular music was undergoing rapid and massive changes. Almost overnight, punk and "new wave" had crashed onto the airwaves, and drop-kicked that god-awful disco back into the vacuous abyss from which it had slithered. The dancing, prancing, preening nose-candy crew, as well as many fans of classic "dinosaur" rock, may have lamented the changes (many of the reviewers for this site still express a sweeping disdain for "80s music," as if the output of that decade were all "of a piece"), but I welcomed them. I had found disco to be just about as interesting as watching paint dry, and was very glad to see many new groups like XTC, Talking Heads, U2, Simple Minds, and the Police displace the ubiquitous Lynyrd Skynyrd, and the Eagles' "Hotel California." (A good enough song, but played WAY too often!)

Some old prog acts folded, unable to adapt to the altered climate, while others tried to re-shape their sounds to fit the new musical mold -- with mixed, but generally unsatisfactory results. King Crimson guitarist and helmsman Robert Fripp, never one to stick to formula, responded by reforming and revitalizing his pioneering band, and releasing a trio of fine new albums. DISCIPLINE, BEAT, and THREE OF A PERFECT PAIR took Crimson to drastically new places, but 1981's DISCIPLINE, the first of the lot, was the one that set the tone, and established a standard that the next two would not quite equal.

A very large part of DISCIPLINE's success is down to the new lineup. Prog master percussionist Bill Bruford had been lured back into the fold, ably manning his new electronic kit and conventional drums in his practiced, inimitable style. Fripp, on guitar and "devices," remained Fripp; as ever exploring new territories on his axe. Yet it was the inclusion of stalwart session bassist Tony Levin, and guitar "gee-whiz kid" Adrian Belew to the crew, that would prove to be Fripp's brilliant ace in the hole.

Levin had already made himself known to progressive rock fans on others' albums (notably, Peter Gabriel's first three discs), where his thunderous Chapman "stick" sound had provided a solid and instantly identifiable underpinning. The stick, first popularized by Levin, was a unique new instrument that allowed the bassist to perform both bass and "lead" parts simultaneously. (I was lucky enough to see him play the stick live with the "Yes in name only" Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman and Howe, and was amazed by the instrument's versatility. Obviously, much of what I had assumed was guitar on the 80s Crimson albums, had been produced by Levin and the stick!)

Vocalist and second guitarist Adrian Belew -- already established as a force to be reckoned with through his work with Zappa, Bowie, and Talking Heads, among others -- now brought his trademark synth axe, and feedback-laden, careening sound to the new incarnation of Crimson. (According to Fripp, the virtuoso American guitarist had been recruited "for the pop element.") As an added bonus, Belew's impassioned, David Byrne-esque vocals, and smart, often whimsical lyrics imparted a new vitality, engaging stage presence, and sense of humour to Crimson -- this band could now do anything!

Each of the seven tracks on DICIPLINE is a winner. The instantly likeable album opener "Elephant Talk," with its three-part, percussive stick and guitar riffs, clever, alliterative lyrics, and Belew generated "elephant" wailings and shrieks, takes the band to weird and wondrous new territory, and serves to loudly proclaim "the old King (Crimson) is dead -- long live the King!"

Next up, "Frame by Frame" keeps the newly upbeat mood and frantic pace going -- this is one terrific song! Please, play it "loud and proud!"

The sensitively-sung "Matte Kudasai" is simply lovely, and here Fripp serves up some of his tastiest licks since Crimson's vaunted early days. His sustained, looping "Frippertronic" effects, as developed and demonstrated on his ambient collaborations with Brian Eno, had now come into their own, and finally found their proper setting. Beautiful!

Track four, "Indiscipline," is a dangerous, menacing masterpiece. Levin's floor-shaking stick, Belew's paranoia-drenched vocals and lyrics (that could well tell the tale of my time with Prog Archives -- wink wink) and accomplished use of feedback, coupled with Bruford's frantic, insistent drumming, and Fripp's screaming lead, come together in a song fully as good as any the band have ever released. To quote the lyric, "I LIKE IT!"

Don't touch that dial (or volume knob!), because the best is yet to come: "Thela Hun Ginjeet" is perhaps my favourite of a first-rate set. The band is AMAZING here, and Belew's "true-life" narrative of his scary encounter with members of a street gang, all set to a driving "jungle" beat, is absorbing every time.

Number six, the evocative instrumental "The Sheltering Sky," reveals another new facet of Crimson. This is one to listen to in the dark -- great stuff!

Finally, the appropriately-named title track is a masterful exercise in four-part syncopation, as the drums, stick, and two guitars integrate perfectly in a seamless, infectious whole, and bring this excellent album to a lamentably early close -- would that there were seven more tracks! (Oh well, BEAT and THREE OF A PERFECT PAIR were soon to follow....)

DISCIPLINE is an absolute masterpiece of 80s progressive rock. It resoundingly demonstrated that the old bands could not only survive in the prevailing musical climate, but flourish, and take the genre to new and wonderful places. Essential!


and for Mirage we have...a new forumite discovery for me since I've come back to the site. A man of passion and knowledge... and you know what.. a damn good reviewer as well.  Madan!!!!!

Camel - Mirage CD (album) cover

MIRAGE

Camel

 

Symphonic Prog

4.38 | 1988 ratings

From Progarchives.com, the ultimate progressive rock music website

rogerthat
5 stars Woohoo, the camel is in full gallop here! This was one of the first few prog rock albums I heard and my first Camel album. Nothing else the band have done ever again made such a big impression on me but my adoration of this fantastic album hasn't faded a whit since. Perhaps, an aptly titled album, then?

Nasty quips aside, I am quite fussy about originality in music. I don't demand something as fundamental as a new tone system to replace the one Stockhausen proposed. But I do want to hear bands present their thoughts, musically and lyrically (not so much), differently at some level. I generally don't suffer the generic end of most music genres too gladly. So, owning up to my unabashed love of Mirage is a bit of a self-goal!

There's not much Camel do, broadly speaking, that you won't find on prog rock albums before. They draw heavily from Caravan and the Canterbury scene as whole, dropping a very big hint about their debt to Supersister. There's some King Crimson in the mix while Peter Bardens at times evokes Deep Purple. They even manage to sound like - and it is like, indeed and not the other way round - those magpies Renaissance. A passage in the middle of Lady Fantasy sounds like Ashes Are Burning but it is quickly forgotten as Andrew Latimer resumes vocals.

But I am not too worried about all that when Freefall kicks off the album to a flying start. From that moment, it's literally a desert storm. Camel at all times sound graceful and capable of being gentle and becalming while rocking really hard at other times to give the album some serious momentum. You don't get much time to reflect on whether the track you just heard is really as good as it appears to be because there's another and then yet another strong track waiting to be digested. It's a simply flawless album all the way through. Not one track strikes a discordant or inconsistent note nor do the proceedings ever get boring.

To accomplish this last aspect, Camel also take you through some delightful twists and turns. Latimer is at the very top of his guitar game, enchanting you with laidback, relaxed notes as sweet as Santana and crushing you with power that reminds you of Blackmore or Iommi. Overall, the band sound as if they are truly having a blast playing these songs. Note especially the solo Latimer plays just after he has finished his first few vocal lines. That passage, as well as others in the album, give the appearance of a jam-y hard rock workout and yet there are hardly an excessive movements in the album. If anything, it is overall one of the more economical prog albums I have heard.

Camel also have one thing in spades that I have suggested was perhaps a bit undervalued in prog and that is emotional resonance. It is hard not to be drawn into those wonderful passages of music that hit you at several different points in the album. Mostly on account of Latimer's guitar but Bardens has his moments too. Subsequently, they got a bit too complacent and gave up too much of their rocking side for my liking but on Mirage their style is hard to fault and their execution just superb.

As I already said, this is an amazingly consistent album but I'd pick Lady Fantasy, Nimrodel and Freefall as the high points. Five stars easily for a delightful prog masterpiece and one of the best albums to initiate listeners into prog.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 08:26
Neither King Crimson can beat my love for Mirage
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GKR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 08:29
Not my favourite of both groups, but I'll go with Discipline. I was hearing them too much these days.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moogtron III Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 08:38
Discipline was courageous, visionary and creative, but I enjoy Mirage more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 08:38
Tough choice - I love both equally - I'm thinking.......I can't pick one over the other....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zravkapt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 08:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The-time-is-now Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 09:09
Mirage.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nightfly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 09:14
80's Crimson whilst good is not my favourite era but early Camel...Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atkingani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:01
Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:

Discipline was courageous, visionary and creative, but I enjoy Mirage more.

Ditto.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Bearded Bard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:07
I generally enjoy KC more, but not in this match-up. Discipline is great, but c'mon, it's Mirage!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Michael678 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:16
Discipline
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mellotron Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:18
I went with Mirage here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:19
Micky, I feel honoured that you put up my review of Mirage for this poll.  Let me also add that my vote went to Discipline.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LearsFool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:42
KC all the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:46
Discipline is one of Crimson's finest moments. I like Camel, but it's by no means my favorite album of theirs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TeleStrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:52
Once again, no thought required.
Nothing by KC will ever make any of my top ten lists (band, album, song).
I would have voted for any Camel album over any KC album in any poll.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Daysbetween Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 12:44
Love both but I have to be in the mood for the KC so Mirage it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 14:37
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Micky, I feel honoured that you put up my review of Mirage for this poll.  Let me also add that my vote went to Discipline.  Wink


LOLLOLClap

my pleasure.. Great review.

want to vote for Camel...  I do enjoy Mirage more.. yet something just makes me hesitate actually voting for it.  Self respect perhaps...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 15:10
Mirage is a nice album and Discipline is only my 6th or 7th favorite Crimson but its still better than Mirage
Ian



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2015 at 15:25
Discipline, would have to be one hell of a match up to get me to vote for Camel.
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